Refurb. XMC-1 HDMI problems

[rajdude]

All right guys...so I took a huge "leap of faith" and ordered the XMC-1 refurbished. I was hoping that the HDMI problems people report are "internet hysteria" and for every one problematic XMC-1 out there, there are many perfectly good ones.

Seems like I was wrong :-(

I am having constant HDMI issues right from day one. I have a very, very simple setup:

Inputs:
A 4K FireTV stick is inserted straight into XMC-1's HDMI 1
A old Chromecast inserted into HDMI 2 < just for testing HDMI switching, it never gets used.

Output:
A 82" Samsung Q70 TV is attached to the HDMI 2 out via the nice HDMI high speed cable provided with the TV (corrected, it really is HDMI 2)

That is it!

Problem:
Every few power ONs, TV ends up with a black screen.
Volume up/down of the XMC-1 shows up on the screen, meaning OSD is working fine and proving that XMC to TV HDMI connection is fine.

My workaround:
Switch the XMC-1 to HDMI 2, wait for it to sync (takes 10 seconds or so) blinks two times, displays HDMI 2 like 3-4 times, but it does stabilize eventually. Then switch back to HDMI 1, FireTV shows up on the TV. After that things work fine until power down and up.

So far, I have tried:

• Factory resetting the XMC-1
• Changing HDMI CEC settings, like enabling power on/off and volume up-down.
• Called Emotiva tech support a couple of times, went into voice mail...left a message. (more on this later)
  

I know people talk about bad HDMI cables. but here I have no HDMI cables. my primary source is connected straight to the HDMI ports in the back. Output HDMI cable has no issue, proven by the consistently visible OSD from XMC-1.

Should I send it back at my shipping cost?

Frankly, I really, really want to keep it. I cannot afford an Anthem AVM-60 right now.
Audio quality wise, I can live with it. I have compared its sound against my Anthem AVM-20. In reference direct analog mode, they sound identical. If decoding a digital source (Chromecast Audio via Toslink), the XMC-1 sounds a little more detailed and "forward"... as if the high frequencies are a bit hotter, but my ancient Anthem AVM-20 sounds sweeter to my ears.



By the way, here is the rest of my rig:
Speakers: Magnepan 3.6/R + Magnepan CC3 center
Amps: 3 x Bryston Monoblocks PP-120 SST
Old preamp: Amthem AVM 20 < this is what the XMC-1 replaced
CD player: Meridian 588
Turntable Rega P3
All connected via custom made balanced cables (Belden 1800F + Neutrik plugs)
Surround duty is done by an Adcom GFA-2535 powering some old Infinity bookshelves

[rajdude]

All right, here is an update:
I got a call back from a guy in Emotiva's tech support department.

First, if I had to summarize the long call, basically it summed up to "deal with it" :-(

I did have a long talk with him, he asked a bunch of questions, and then after hearing me out, he said I have already tried everything he would suggest. There is nothing more he could do or suggest.

He said media streamers cause more problems than other sources. I asked him if there is a media streamer which is known to have less issues with XMC-1...he did not know which one to recommend. He also said HDMI issues is not Emotiva's problem, these issues are a result of many other things. He also acknowledged that Emotiva may not have enough resources to troubleshoot these HDMI issues at product development time as much as the large companies have (like Pioneer, Sony etc.) and as a result a $200 receiver may have less HDMI issues than this $2500 XMC-1 . That was sad to hear!

Then he suggested I try a different HDMI input, but he mentioned there is not much difference between them. He said try HDMI 5 to 8 because XMC-1 has two "banks" HDMI 1 to 4 is one and HDMI-5 to 8 is in a different bank........although he did add that there is not much difference between those two banks.

I am trying that now... will keep you all posted.

[megash0n]

Oct 7, 2020 15:50:55 GMT -5 rajdude said:

All right, here is an update:
I got a call back from a guy in Emotiva's tech support department.

First, if I had to summarize the long call, basically it summed up to "deal with it" :-(

I did have a long talk with him, he asked a bunch of questions, and then after hearing me out, he said I have already tried everything he would suggest. There is nothing more he could do or suggest.

He said media streamers cause more problems than other sources. I asked him if there is a media streamer which is known to have less issues with XMC-1...he did not know which one to recommend. He also said HDMI issues is not Emotiva's problem, these issues are a result of many other things. He also acknowledged that Emotiva may not have enough resources to troubleshoot these HDMI issues at product development time as much as the large companies have (like Pioneer, Sony etc.) and as a result a $200 receiver may have less HDMI issues than this $2500 XMC-1 . That was sad to hear!

Then he suggested I try a different HDMI input, but he mentioned there is not much difference between them. He said try HDMI 5 to 8 because XMC-1 has two "banks" HDMI 1 to 4 is one and HDMI-5 to 8 is in a different bank........although he did add that there is not much difference between those two banks.

I am trying that now... will keep you all posted.

Nothing like buying gear that has been around for a long time to be told that the issue is on everyone else. Sure makes you feel good about your investment doesn't it? It's basically been the same story since the xmc-1. Oddly, through FW updates, the issue gets a little better over time.

[thezone]

Oct 7, 2020 15:50:55 GMT -5 rajdude said:

All right, here is an update:
I got a call back from a guy in Emotiva's tech support department.

First, if I had to summarize the long call, basically it summed up to "deal with it" :-(

I did have a long talk with him, he asked a bunch of questions, and then after hearing me out, he said I have already tried everything he would suggest. There is nothing more he could do or suggest.

He said media streamers cause more problems than other sources. I asked him if there is a media streamer which is known to have less issues with XMC-1...he did not know which one to recommend. He also said HDMI issues is not Emotiva's problem, these issues are a result of many other things. He also acknowledged that Emotiva may not have enough resources to troubleshoot these HDMI issues at product development time as much as the large companies have (like Pioneer, Sony etc.) and as a result a $200 receiver may have less HDMI issues than this $2500 XMC-1 . That was sad to hear!

Then he suggested I try a different HDMI input, but he mentioned there is not much difference between them. He said try HDMI 5 to 8 because XMC-1 has two "banks" HDMI 1 to 4 is one and HDMI-5 to 8 is in a different bank........although he did add that there is not much difference between those two banks.

I am trying that now... will keep you all posted.

I had a few HDMI issues with my XMC-1 initially, mostly relating to handshake issues, sound and no picture, often freezing up and requiring a hard restart after changing channels etc, it would play better with some gear over others. Weird thing is it did eventually sort it self out. And here I am now 5 years later with a new XMC-2 and a bunch of emo gear and couldn't be happier. My advice would be, hang in there its worth it in the long run. 

[stephen]

I had similar issues with a 4k firestick -- eventually I just started using all the apps on my TV w/ TOSLINK optical back to XMC-1 (I couldn't get ARC to work either). I was able to improve the firestick reliability though by tweaking some of the firestick video settings (HDR Auto to force on, I think there was something in there about screensaver timeout, etc.) + setting my other XMC-1 to HDMI 1.4 and the firestick input to force HDMI 2.0.

[rajdude]

Everyone who chimed in here....Thanks for responding!

Here is a quick update:

With the FireTV plugged into either HDMI 5 or HDMI 8, things work much better...I do not think we had a black screen for a few days now.

So for testing purposes, I plugged it back into HDMI 1.The problems seem to have come back. I had a black screen yesterday. Then today also I got a black screen...which was not able to be resolved by powering the XMC-1 off and on (actually high power standby mode and back). Switching to another HDMI port and back brings back the picture.

Does that not mean that the HDMI 1 port is bad?

Emotiva should replace this unit, no?

[stiehl11]

Sometimes devices just don't like each other (when it comes to HDMI). I was using my Sony BDP to stream but it just would not sync with either my XMC-1 or 2. Like you, I swapped to a different port and it would work for a while but eventually stop syncing. Put other devices on the previous port and never had a problem with it. Eventually bought a Roku to stream from and have zero issues with it. The only HDMI issue I've had was with my Sony. And, it's not every time, but it was enough. I've never had a problem with my Sony TV.

I've heard so many nightmares about HDMI connected components; and not just Emotiva. My cable company has told me in the past that their equipment doesn't work with certain manufactures products. I saw a guy absolutely lose his cool talking with Best Buy about why his components weren't handshaking correctly (neither of them were Emotiva).

My suggestions would be to check that you have the latest firmware (some units went out without the latest installed). If it's the latest, do a factory reset and reload the latest firmware. If it's still doing it after that, unplug (physically pull the cord out of the back or from the outlet) the XMC-1 and remove the Fire Stick for a few minutes, then reconnect and restart. Taking a total stab in the dark, if it continues after all that open the unit and make sure all the connections to the HDMI board are secure.

Just some thoughts. HDMI is a joke that isn't funny.

[rajdude]

Yes I agree with you. HDMI is a pain in the butt!

Thanks for the tips.

I have already done a factory reset earlier.

Have not tried to reload the firmware, it is the latest version. The Emotiva tech said they have not released a new firmware version for a long time now.  But I could try doing that.

I have done the total power off for everything (all equipment is plugged into a power strip, I just hit the power switch there and everything loses power.)

For now, I have put the fire stick back into HDMI 5. So far, no problems....knock on wood!

Will call Emotiva early next week, they asked me to talk to a more experienced tech (who was on vacation this week)...maybe he has some more troubleshooting tips for me. I have a feeling that these HDMI problems will linger on.

Gotta make an executive decision before the 30 day return policy runs out!!

[ttocs]

Oct 9, 2020 18:59:40 GMT -5 rajdude said:

Yes I agree with you. HDMI is a pain in the butt!

Thanks for the tips.

I have already done a factory reset earlier.

Have not tried to reload the firmware, it is the latest version. The Emotiva tech said they have not released a new firmware version for a long time now.  But I could try doing that.

I have done the total power off for everything (all equipment is plugged into a power strip, I just hit the power switch there and everything loses power.)

For now, I have put the fire stick back into HDMI 5. So far, no problems....knock on wood!

Will call Emotiva early next week, they asked me to talk to a more experienced tech (who was on vacation this week)...maybe he has some more troubleshooting tips for me. I have a feeling that these HDMI problems will linger on.

Gotta make an executive decision before the 30 day return policy runs out!!

HDMI-2 OUTPUT is for CEC/ARC. 
You mentioned using HDMI-1 Output to the tv, but this doesn't support CEC/ARC. Are you really using this output? If so, try HDMI-2 OUTPUT to tv.

[rajdude]

Thanks for pointing that out...I actually have it connected to HDMI #2 output (not HDMI 1 out).........I had made a typo ......... I just corrected it in my post above.

Oct 9, 2020 19:26:27 GMT -5 ttocs said:

Oct 9, 2020 18:59:40 GMT -5 rajdude said:

Yes I agree with you. HDMI is a pain in the butt!

Thanks for the tips.

I have already done a factory reset earlier.

Have not tried to reload the firmware, it is the latest version. The Emotiva tech said they have not released a new firmware version for a long time now.  But I could try doing that.

I have done the total power off for everything (all equipment is plugged into a power strip, I just hit the power switch there and everything loses power.)

For now, I have put the fire stick back into HDMI 5. So far, no problems....knock on wood!

Will call Emotiva early next week, they asked me to talk to a more experienced tech (who was on vacation this week)...maybe he has some more troubleshooting tips for me. I have a feeling that these HDMI problems will linger on.

Gotta make an executive decision before the 30 day return policy runs out!!

HDMI-2 OUTPUT is for CEC/ARC. 
You mentioned using HDMI-1 Output to the tv, but this doesn't support CEC/ARC. Are you really using this output? If so, try HDMI-2 OUTPUT to tv.

[rbk123]

I would swap out the HDMI cable that came with the TV with an 8k certified cable; the higher capacity it is spec'd for, the better and the better Emo processors seem to work. Yes the one with the TV *should* work, but the ones out there are far better than what a manufacturer will give you.
Secondly, have you googled your TV model with something like "HDMI" problems and seen if others have found some settings changes in it that have improved performance? Frequently there's a setting or 2 that causes problems with Emo, and avsforum is a great place to find info like that.

[rajdude]

Oct 10, 2020 7:12:53 GMT -5 rbk123 said:

I would swap out the HDMI cable that came with the TV with an 8k certified cable; the higher capacity it is spec'd for, the better and the better Emo processors seem to work. Yes the one with the TV *should* work, but the ones out there are far better than what a manufacturer will give you.
Secondly, have you googled your TV model with something like "HDMI" problems and seen if others have found some settings changes in it that have improved performance? Frequently there's a setting or 2 that causes problems with Emo, and avsforum is a great place to find info like that.

Right..........well, I could try to do that....but....why are these two things happening?>>>

1. It works fine in HDMI 5 or HDMI 8 (still working fine, I keep switching it on-off to test, never fails, no "stuck on black screen")

2. When I get a black screen (while using HDMI 1)...the OSD from Emotiva is still showing fine on the TV's screen (for example OSD for volume up-down shows up)

I think that means HDMI from Emotiva to the TV is working fine. Right? I had mentioned this observation to the Emotiva's tech, and he agreed that there does not seem to be anything wrong with that particular HDMI cable

Still, I can try to test out this theory....but I currently do not have a 8k rated HDMI cable on hand.......plus time is running out (return window)

[ttocs]

Oct 10, 2020 15:43:13 GMT -5 rajdude said:

Oct 10, 2020 7:12:53 GMT -5 rbk123 said:

I would swap out the HDMI cable that came with the TV with an 8k certified cable; the higher capacity it is spec'd for, the better and the better Emo processors seem to work. Yes the one with the TV *should* work, but the ones out there are far better than what a manufacturer will give you.
Secondly, have you googled your TV model with something like "HDMI" problems and seen if others have found some settings changes in it that have improved performance? Frequently there's a setting or 2 that causes problems with Emo, and avsforum is a great place to find info like that.

Right..........well, I could try to do that....but....why are these two things happening?>>>

1. It works fine in HDMI 5 or HDMI 8 (still working fine, I keep switching it on-off to test, never fails, no "stuck on black screen")

2. When I get a black screen (while using HDMI 1)...the OSD from Emotiva is still showing fine on the TV's screen (for example OSD for volume up-down shows up)

I think that means HDMI from Emotiva to the TV is working fine. Right? I had mentioned this observation to the Emotiva's tech, and he agreed that there does not seem to be anything wrong with that particular HDMI cable

Still, I can try to test out this theory....but I currently do not have a 8k rated HDMI cable on hand.......plus time is running out (return window)

I had a problem with Apple TV 4K not outputting full Dolby Vision. I changed a setting on the tv and it now shows Dolby Vision at full color and frame rate.

[rbk123]

rajdude said:

Right..........well, I could try to do that....but....why are these two things happening?

If I knew why, I wouldn't be sugesting things to try; I would be telling you exactly what you need to do. My guess is it's the cable, and I could list several reasons why, but it's still a guess.

[rajdude]

Thanks for the tips guys!

Update:
Today morning when I turned on the rig, it showed FireTV on the TV for a second...then the XMC-1 switched to HDMI 4. It was very strange! I did not do anything. Then I switched it manually to HDMI-5 (where FireTV is actually connected). Then FireTV showed up fine on the TV.

Very strange!

[bolle]

Question: Which firmware version are you using? I would also try to disable ARC and CEC.

I use a FireTV pendant (4k 3rd Gen FireTV Box) with my XMC-1, as well as a Panasonic 424 and a HTPC.

Since updating to firmware 5.8 I don´t have HDMI issues anymore most of the time. The black screen one hasn´t happended for months now and is always gone after switching inputs back & forth.

I am using HDMI inputs 1 to 3. My display device is a 4K projector.

In my experience most HDMI problems with TVs come from ARC and CEC.

[rajdude]

Thanks for chiming in.

My XMC-1 was shipped with firmware version 5.15, 2/26/2020

I have no use for ARC, (audio does not get sent back from the TV) but in the TV it is enabled. I could disable it but I do not see a need for it because... see below.

CEC is very useful and seems to works fine in my setup..other that one input changing glitch I mentioned above...has not happened again. I think I was hitting the FireTV remote up-down at the time. Maybe it sent a IR or CEC singnal which switched inputs.

I have not experienced any black screens since I have plugged the FireTV 4K stick into HDMI 4. That tells me HDMI 1 input is bad on my unit.

I am waiting until tomorrow for Emotiva to open again (holiday today)...and I want to negotiate a replacement.

Oct 12, 2020 6:54:23 GMT -5 bolle said:

Question: Which firmware version are you using? I would also try to disable ARC and CEC.

I use a FireTV pendant (4k 3rd Gen FireTV Box) with my XMC-1, as well as a Panasonic 424 and a HTPC.

Since updating to firmware 5.8 I don´t have HDMI issues anymore most of the time. The black screen one hasn´t happended for months now and is always gone after switching inputs back & forth.

I am using HDMI inputs 1 to 3. My display device is a 4K projector.

In my experience most HDMI problems with TVs come from ARC and CEC.

[rajdude]

Update:

I talked to the "high end" tech yesterday... After patiently listening to my woes, he said "if it works in HDMI 5, then just keep it". But I argued that I paid for a fully working device. It is like buying a car with only 3 out of the 4 wheels working properly. But, "hey there is a spare, that works correctly...so just keep the car!" Nope. Anyway, after I expressed my viewpoint, he agreed to replace it. However he requested I try some other sources in HDMI 1. He suspects that other sources will work fine in HDMI 1. I agreed to do that test and report back with the results the next day.

I have 3 sources to test with:

1. FireStick 4K

2. Very old ChromeCast

3. Blu-ray player

Test:

Blu-ray player in HDMI 1 > got stuck on the black screen once.

Blu-ray player in HDMI 3 > got stuck on black screen 4 times. Power on-off wont resolve it. OSD works. < this is new, I never tested HDMI 3

ChromeCast in HDMI 1 to 3 > works fine

Hmmm...something wrong with HDMI bank 1 to 4. Lets test HDMI bank 5 to 8

Blu-ray player in HDMI 5 to 6 > works fine
ChromeCast in HDMI 5 to 7 > works fine

FireStick 4K in HDMI 5 to 8 > works fine

So everything works fine in HDMI 5 to 8. If things were getting stuck also on HDMI 5 to 8, I would deduce that there is something wrong with my sources being "sometimes" incompatible with XMC-1. But it is not like that, they work fine on HDMI 5 to 8.

Something is wrong with the HDMI switching bank 1 to 4.

The tech did mention that the signal in one of these "switching banks" goes through two ICs instead of one.

Well, that is it. I am done spending time on this XMC-1. No more testing.

It is going back.

[rajdude]

Here is the end of this story.

In a nutshell:

Emotiva sent me a replacement which behaved the exact same way - HDMI bank 1 causes the same problems.

The replacement unit had even more issues, so I chose to keep the original unit. Will learn to live with HDMI1-4 not working properly. Using HDMI 5 to 8 now.

Here is the long story for people who want more details :-):

The HDMI inputs’ bank #1 (1 to 4) does not work consistently.
Both units (the one I originally bought and this one, which was sent as a replacement) behave the exact same way.
This problem was discussed earlier in this thread.

Trigger outs’ power capability
I have two XMC-1 units here, one is unable to trigger a "Niles AC-3 voltage triggered outlet" but the other XMC1 works perfectly fine. I found out the problem when I did some troubleshooting using a multi-meter. I measured the current draw. One of the XMC-1 is unable to supply enough power (in milliamps) to trip the internal relay inside the Niles AC-3. The AC-3's specifications say it needs at least 100 mA. The troublesome XMC-1 supplies only 33 mA, as measured.

More info here:
emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/57898/trigger-outs-inconsistent-milliampere-capabilities

Remote control’s keys
The new unit you sent out has slightly defective keys. For example, the HDMI 2 button has to be pressed hard in order to actually function. Just a regular press does not activate it. My other remote does not have this problem

Due to all these issues, I chose to keep the original XMC-1 unit and returned the new one. I do want to say that I am rather disappointed that the HDMI1 to 4 inputs have some issue. There is some difference in electronics there, which is clearly causing problems in my setup. Hopefully these issues can be fixed in the future.