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Post by megash0n on Oct 17, 2020 12:33:33 GMT -5
Here is a topic I'd like opinions on as I'm thinking ahead to building new DIY subwoofers. I'm looking closely at a pair of Devastators. For those unfamiliar, these typically use high SPL 21 inch drivers in huge cabinets. One of the main purposes for this build is they peak around 130 dB in the "chest slam" frequencies. Gun shots, punches, etc..
When thinking through this, I'm starting to question how one would configure something like Dirac to maintain this chest slam outcome. If you set your curve to flat, then you would essentially attenuate out the slam. On one hand, one might have a goal for a flat response, but doesn't this method remove the whole intent of a subwoofer cabinet such as this? Sure, you'll still be moving a ton of air, but I feel like allowing Dirac to follow a flat or a Harmon curve would severely limit this type of build. It is my opinion that you would tailor the curve for the subwoofer to keep this intentional peak.
Thoughts or opinions?
What I am looking for is feedback regarding this scenario. What I am not looking for are opinions that suggest this isn't pleasing to the Sound Gods. Let's keep the discussion constrained to the intent of this particular subwoofer build and its purpose. ☺
Thanks in advance!
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 17, 2020 20:22:00 GMT -5
I think there is merit to your concern, while most of the time my system has enough headroom — even when eq’d (eg. Dirac) — when I’m really head banging (Porcupine Tree, In Absentia, “Blackest Eyes”) I find ‘no Eq’ gives me the greatest dynamics. That said, my system might hit 110 dB peaks, so I’m nowhere near what you’re looking for.
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Post by thompson12 on Oct 17, 2020 20:51:12 GMT -5
You tube, Home Theater Gurus on chest slam youtu.be/Afy10voc5kcEdit: he also has a good step by step details on how to use REW Mitch |
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Post by 405x5 on Oct 18, 2020 8:23:33 GMT -5
Here is a topic I'd like opinions on as I'm thinking ahead to building new DIY subwoofers. I'm looking closely at a pair of Devastators. For those unfamiliar, these typically use high SPL 21 inch drivers in huge cabinets. One of the main purposes for this build is they peak around 130 dB in the "chest slam" frequencies. Gun shots, punches, etc.. When thinking through this, I'm starting to question how one would configure something like Dirac to maintain this chest slam outcome. If you set your curve to flat, then you would essentially attenuate out the slam. On one hand, one might have a goal for a flat response, but doesn't this method remove the whole intent of a subwoofer cabinet such as this? Sure, you'll still be moving a ton of air, but I feel like allowing Dirac to follow a flat or a Harmon curve would severely limit this type of build. It is my opinion that you would tailor the curve for the subwoofer to keep this intentional peak. Thoughts or opinions? What I am looking for is feedback regarding this scenario. What I am not looking for are opinions that suggest this isn't pleasing to the Sound Gods. Let's keep the discussion constrained to the intent of this particular subwoofer build and its purpose. ☺ Thanks in advance! I would respectfully submit to you that Dirac implementation and 130db. “Chest Slam” is an Oxymoron. Bill |
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Post by megash0n on Oct 18, 2020 8:42:26 GMT -5
Here is a topic I'd like opinions on as I'm thinking ahead to building new DIY subwoofers. I'm looking closely at a pair of Devastators. For those unfamiliar, these typically use high SPL 21 inch drivers in huge cabinets. One of the main purposes for this build is they peak around 130 dB in the "chest slam" frequencies. Gun shots, punches, etc.. When thinking through this, I'm starting to question how one would configure something like Dirac to maintain this chest slam outcome. If you set your curve to flat, then you would essentially attenuate out the slam. On one hand, one might have a goal for a flat response, but doesn't this method remove the whole intent of a subwoofer cabinet such as this? Sure, you'll still be moving a ton of air, but I feel like allowing Dirac to follow a flat or a Harmon curve would severely limit this type of build. It is my opinion that you would tailor the curve for the subwoofer to keep this intentional peak. Thoughts or opinions? What I am looking for is feedback regarding this scenario. What I am not looking for are opinions that suggest this isn't pleasing to the Sound Gods. Let's keep the discussion constrained to the intent of this particular subwoofer build and its purpose. ☺ Thanks in advance! I would respectfully submit to you that Dirac implementation and 130db. “Chest Slam” is an Oxymoron. Bill Please explain your position if it is based on anything more than opinion. |
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Post by 405x5 on Oct 18, 2020 9:57:11 GMT -5
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Post by megash0n on Oct 18, 2020 10:04:06 GMT -5
gotcha, so... Not actually anything related to the precise question I asked. ☺ |
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Post by megash0n on Oct 18, 2020 10:10:01 GMT -5
I think there is merit to your concern, while most of the time my system has enough headroom — even when eq’d (eg. Dirac) — when I’m really head banging (Porcupine Tree, In Absentia, “Blackest Eyes”) I find ‘no Eq’ gives me the greatest dynamics. That said, my system might hit 110 dB peaks, so I’m nowhere near what you’re looking for. thank you. I think most people are misunderstanding the question. The reference to 130 dB is in relation to the actual subwoofer build and its intent. I maybe should have specified that knowledge of this build is a requirement for response. I just didn't think it was necessary in order to give an opinion on the matter. The goal isn't to hit 130dB necessarily. The goal is to understand what impact room correction, through eq, might have to the specific purpose of this kind of subwoofer build. I think not allowing the spike in the 80-100 hz region would defeat the purpose of this sort of build. I'm curious as to what other think in regards to that singular question. |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Oct 18, 2020 10:14:50 GMT -5
What's a "Devastator"?
In live sound mixing, that "chest thump" impact is created by emphasizing the frequency band around 100-150Hz. This is not necessarily a subwoofer issue.
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Post by 405x5 on Oct 18, 2020 10:15:18 GMT -5
“I'm looking closely at a pair of Devastators. For those unfamiliar, these typically use high SPL 21 inch drivers in huge cabinets. One of the main purposes for this build is they peak around 130 dB in the "chest slam" frequencies. Gun shots, punches, etc.. “ “Devastators”! On that we agree 100 percent! |
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Post by megash0n on Oct 18, 2020 10:15:29 GMT -5
You tube, Home Theater Gurus on chest slam youtu.be/Afy10voc5kcEdit: he also has a good step by step details on how to use REW Mitch Thank you. I have actually watched that particular video a few times. I've watched most of his videos. There are a few things I think he minimizes at times, but for sure a great source of information and learning. This particular build I'm looking at focuses on peaking in those frequency ranges as opposed to being flat as most want. |
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Post by megash0n on Oct 19, 2020 10:42:58 GMT -5
What's a "Devastator"? In live sound mixing, that "chest thump" impact is created by emphasizing the frequency band around 100-150Hz. This is not necessarily a subwoofer issue. I apologize. I'm not seeing any of these posts on my thread until later. Here is a link to GSG which sells the kits. AVSForum has a huge following of several variants of this design. Many people use them with the Marty's or other subs to fill in the super low frequencies. shop.gsgad.com/collections/horn-subwoofers |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Oct 19, 2020 11:42:01 GMT -5
If you are doing live sound or installing where you have basically unlimited space these sorts of large horn-loaded subs can generate the sort of output level you may need below 100Hz. But in a home theater in a typical sized room, they are IMO just too big for what you end up with. You can get far better results with an IB installation, or even with multiple conventional subwoofer systems placed around the room. But if it's a fun project with low boom you want, then go for it.  I have built the Tuba folded horn system and while it wasn't for me, the client loved it. |
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Post by megash0n on Oct 19, 2020 14:04:28 GMT -5
If you are doing live sound or installing where you have basically unlimited space these sorts of large horn-loaded subs can generate the sort of output level you may need below 100Hz. But in a home theater in a typical sized room, they are IMO just too big for what you end up with. You can get far better results with an IB installation, or even with multiple conventional subwoofer systems placed around the room. But if it's a fun project with low boom you want, then go for it. I have built the Tuba folded horn system and while it wasn't for me, the client loved it. I did very much love the IB that's in my HT room. I just don't use that room anymore. I have considered building manifolds into the ceiling to split my 4 18s into 2 pairs of IB as well. That's definitely the cheaper solution for sure. I've just been following this type of build for a while. Everyone who builds them says they are game changing. They may pair them with different subs that reach down low. The Devastators are meant more for that 70-110 Hz range of "violent" output. Like, when a gun shot happens, you really feel the concussive impact on your chest. At any rate, this question really was more about how using EQ to flatten these subs out would impact the intent of the build itself. EQ would effectively limit what the sub is intended to accomplish. |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Oct 19, 2020 17:02:08 GMT -5
If you are doing live sound or installing where you have basically unlimited space these sorts of large horn-loaded subs can generate the sort of output level you may need below 100Hz. But in a home theater in a typical sized room, they are IMO just too big for what you end up with. You can get far better results with an IB installation, or even with multiple conventional subwoofer systems placed around the room. But if it's a fun project with low boom you want, then go for it. I have built the Tuba folded horn system and while it wasn't for me, the client loved it. I did very much love the IB that's in my HT room. I just don't use that room anymore. I have considered building manifolds into the ceiling to split my 4 18s into 2 pairs of IB as well. That's definitely the cheaper solution for sure. I've just been following this type of build for a while. Everyone who builds them says they are game changing. They may pair them with different subs that reach down low. The Devastators are meant more for that 70-110 Hz range of "violent" output. Like, when a gun shot happens, you really feel the concussive impact on your chest. At any rate, this question really was more about how using EQ to flatten these subs out would impact the intent of the build itself. EQ would effectively limit what the sub is intended to accomplish. Interesting that you say they work well in the upper sub-bass range when the web site talks mostly about their subsonics. In any case, I'd use EQ like a Feedback Destroyer to get the house curve I want, similar to how I EQ my big IB. I'd never try to use something like Dirac or ARC for my subs. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2020 17:13:03 GMT -5
What's a "Devastator"? In live sound mixing, that "chest thump" impact is created by emphasizing the frequency band around 100-150Hz. This is not necessarily a subwoofer issue. Couldn't agree more! This is the midbass region! |
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Post by megash0n on Oct 19, 2020 17:14:37 GMT -5
What's a "Devastator"? In live sound mixing, that "chest thump" impact is created by emphasizing the frequency band around 100-150Hz. This is not necessarily a subwoofer issue. Couldn't agree more! This is actually the purpose of the subwoofer build I'm speaking of. Check it out if interested. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2020 17:20:51 GMT -5
This is actually the purpose of the subwoofer build I'm speaking of. Check it out if interested. This area is what attracted me to the Tektons having 8 seven inch midbass drivers. The Moabs with 4 12 inch and 30 tweeters are never complemented for the shot to the solar plexus like the Ulfberhts! Love to see your project bro, enjoy! |
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Post by megash0n on Oct 19, 2020 17:22:41 GMT -5
I did very much love the IB that's in my HT room. I just don't use that room anymore. I have considered building manifolds into the ceiling to split my 4 18s into 2 pairs of IB as well. That's definitely the cheaper solution for sure. I've just been following this type of build for a while. Everyone who builds them says they are game changing. They may pair them with different subs that reach down low. The Devastators are meant more for that 70-110 Hz range of "violent" output. Like, when a gun shot happens, you really feel the concussive impact on your chest. At any rate, this question really was more about how using EQ to flatten these subs out would impact the intent of the build itself. EQ would effectively limit what the sub is intended to accomplish. Interesting that you say they work well in the upper sub-bass range when the web site talks mostly about their subsonics. In any case, I'd use EQ like a Feedback Destroyer to get the house curve I want, similar to how I EQ my big IB. I'd never try to use something like Dirac or ARC for my subs. I'm not sure if we are misunderstanding each other's words or not, but did you happen to see the output graphs? I can't remember exactly what all GSG shows on their site. AVSForum has a mountain of info on these with a ton of measurement plots, etc. Yes, they do have high SPL down low, but they are designed to peak from around 80 and maintain that level to around 120 for example. People adjust the tuning and such as needed to shift this peak to some extent. A common scenario I've seen is people using a pair of Full Marty's to dig deep along with a pair of Devastators to high that higher range well. At any rate, I appreciate everyone's responses. I am probably better served to ask these sort of questions on the main thread for the Devastators on AVSForum. I just thought it might be an interesting topic of discussion here as well to get people's opinion. |
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Post by megash0n on Oct 19, 2020 17:27:45 GMT -5
This is actually the purpose of the subwoofer build I'm speaking of. Check it out if interested. This area is what attracted me to the Tektons having 8 seven inch midbass drivers. The Moabs with 4 12 inch and 30 tweeters are never complemented for the shot to the solar plexus like the Ulfberhts! Love to see your project bro, enjoy! unfortunately, it's going to be a minute before I can start these. I have many other things to take care of before I can justify dropping a couple grand on new sub builds. I may end up just doing something with the 18s I already have since I own all of that already. |
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I have built the 
