Considering purchasing new Amps

[Judd]

For some time now, I have been going back in forth between what processor and amps to upgrade too. Looking over the current options (NAD and RMC-1), I think I'll keep my Marantz 8805 unit for now and test out some new amps. After all, I sold my XMC-1 to fund the Marantz because I wasn't happy with it. In my theater, I am using an XPA 5 Gen 1 and two XPA-100 Gen 2's powering my Klipsch RF7ii 7 speaker setup. XPA-5 powers my RC64ii center, and my four RS62ii surrounds. While the XPA 100s power the towers. I never felt like the Klipsch's performed very well with the processor and amp combos I've had, SQ wise. To be fair, I've downsized in the last couple of years, and my setup doubles as my two-channel listening as well. Looking over choices in my price range, I keep coming back to the Emo amps. With that said, I've been looking at either getting two DR1's or one DR2 for my towers and maybe a Gen 3 XPA 5. Would there be any improvements in SQ with these newer AMPS? I'm curious if anyone went from the Gen 1/2's to the newer offerings and were pleased. 

Thank you

[metaldaze]

I know you may be able to get trade in value on the Emotiva amps you already own, towards the purchase of new ones. However if you bought 2 DR-1's and the 5 channel gen 3 amp you'd be at a cost of around $4,000 before taxes and shipping (w/o trade in).

Speakers can always benefit from more power and normally I would say yes, you would net an increase in sound quality moving to higher power amplification. However in your situation, your speakers are quite sensitive, and I see you run an SVS Ultra subwoofer. If that sub is still in service, and you are high passing the RF7ii's, then there will be a much smaller noticeable increase in fidelity (in my opinion).

To get the increase you're seeking while using your single system as both home theater & 2 channel listening ( I do the same) I would humbly suggest you investigate a separate DAC and pre amp with home theater bypass. The remaining funds put towards room treatments if you don't already have them. I know the 8805 is a competent processor with all the bells and whistles you could want. But if you're truly seeking a next level jump for 2 channel listening, separates are hard to beat.

If you bought a brand new Pre amp with home theater bypass along with a great performing DAC like the RME ADI 2 DAC fs you would still have around half of the budget left I estimated just for the amps you have in mind.

Its more difficult since home theater systems usually reside in family rooms where other things take priority, but even moving your main left and right channel speakers around a bit can make a large difference in your listening experience.

[routlaw]

Not trying to talk you into or out of any of these decisions but do have direct experience with your question.

While I don't have any experience with the Klipsch speakers or their sensitivity I have made the swap from the XPA-1 Gen 2 Amps to the DR-1's, and the XPA-3 to the DR-3. My speakers are Genesis 6.1's with 91 db efficiency and have their own built in self powered sub woofers, meaning my amps are driving only the mid bass, mid's and circular ribbon tweeters. The performance difference is quite noticeable, one does not have to concentrate or strain to hear this difference either. Whether its worth the price of admission is up to you. 

However there are many people here on this forum that are quite dismissive of these new amps due to their switch mode power supplies, I'm not one of them. Also worth pointing out a couple of forum members here have tried the DR-1's and did not feel the new amps worked well within their setup. Synergy is the key word and it could be their pre-amps might not have been capable of driving these new amps properly. This is not a disparaging comment about other pre-amps, but rather a possible mismatch with input & output sensitivities as well as input & output impedance between dissimilar devices. Given my pre-amp the XSP-1 Gen 2 is also made by Emotiva this is a fail safe way of eliminating those potential issues. If you decide to go this route do your due diligence and spend time researching this issue and whether or not your existing pre-pro is a good match for the newer amps.

The previous response also makes some good suggestions worth considering although I'm not familiar with the DAC he is referring to. 

Hopefully this helps.

[leonski]

Metal is 100% on at least ONE point. SETUP is key. Making sure you get the most out of what you NOW HAVE makes more sense to me than tossing a couple grand at a problem you aren't even sure you have.

Negotiation with the spouse can help ease setup. Maybe get her to go somewhere if she doesnt' want to help you schlep stuff around in the listening room. Part of setup not only is the physical location of gear, but
things like enough proper rack space with ventilation. You'lll also note that if you have some mondo amount of power amp. that running the WHOLE SETUP off a single 15 amp circuit is not going to cut it. At least at higher levels.

It doesn't matter that I'm NOT a big fan of switchers. You must please YOU.

[Judd]

Thank you all for taking the time to read and respond to my posting. I figured I'd get around $1500 for all three amps if prices are anything near what they were a few years ago. I recall the Gen 1 XPA 5 was really holding its value, that may no longer be the case those. If that's somewhat accurate then my out of pocket expense would be around $2,500.

I have thought about going back to a dedicated 2 channel setup like before but that won't happen until after we move which hopefully will be at the end of the school year 2021. I had to downsize in recent years to help family which is why I only have the theater/living room setup. With that said, it's not an ideal room as it has two openings to other large rooms. Sound treatment also lacks if I'm to be honest.

I do feel the addition of the Marantz, while at the time served well for my 4K needs, took a small hit in the SQ area. I'm not saying it's the processor but perhaps it is the combination of the 8805 and the Emo Amps. This is something I never gave much thought to honestly. The RF7's have always been praised for their high sensitivity but for me, that came at a price during DIRAC (With the old XMC) and Audysessy setup. The speaker levels would always be set around -15 to -20 db. I always assumed this was because of the sensitivity of the speakers mixed with the higher gain amps, mostly from the Gen1 IIRC (31 or 32 gain?). My connections from the processor to amps are with 6' XLR cables. I've tried in-line attenuators (-10 and -15 db) which have helped during calibration, but in doing so the SQ still suffered, maybe worse. This might sound crazy considering the great DACs in the Marantz, but I always thought the RF's sounded better when connected to my old Onkyo TX 807 back in the day.

Maybe I'm answering my own questions here. Perhaps it's the combination of equipment, but then I'm sure the XMC always had plenty of voltage to the amps. Hmm. Maybe I'm just opening up a can of worms here and preparing to throw money at a problem when something else needs to be addressed like Leon stated.

I'd like to make it known that each amp is on its own 20 amp circuit and via my Panamax 5400, I can see the voltage is never a problem. Granted, the amps don't run through the power conditioner because they are on their own circuits but I'm "assuming" all power if clean and stable.

[creimes]

You will find here more than a few people that went from the 8805 to one of the new processors from Emotiva and did notice an improvement in sound quality with the Emotiva, I can say the same for my AV7702 to XMC-1 as it was noticeably better to my ears than the Marantz unit, but then it seems more people have sync issues and such with the Emotiva stuff, though this is the Emotiva forum where people are going to post issues they are having, I'm not sure if Marantz has a forum or not where the same thing can happen ? but it seems like the Emotiva wins sound quality wise but the Marantz units are more stable ? though I did have a firmware issue with my AV7702 and it took nearly 2 months to get the issue known to them and have it sent away and get it back, my XMC-2 it happened to me as well but took less than two weeks to get resolved.

For myself the quality of the sound is most important to me as I'm a big 2ch music lover and the Emotva processors shine in this area without a doubt, so it's going to be different for everyone but the main reason I have this stuff over the boxstore brands is for that exact reason, better sound quality but I understand how the ones that have issues it can be frustrating.

Chad

[metaldaze]

I like to use as many tools that I have at my disposal to my advantage, in order to give my best effort towards the money being spent. I like to draw a line down the middle as best I can between manufacturer specs, reviews, and user feedback. That said here is a link to a forum where they test all kinds of equipment however the forum is not without it's own biases (everything is measurable, if it measures better it sounds better, all distortion is bad etc.) These are generalizations and I am not calling out anyone or anything, just making observations. Hi-Fi is a highly subjective blend of psychoacoustics and physics linked to emotional areas of response and pleasure in the brain. Everyone may listen to the same thing, and hear it totally different ways.

With that being said, here is a link to the Marantz 8805:
www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-marantz-av8805-av-processor.6926/

The measurements sort of line up with your listening experience, and what other posters have said. I have not owned this processor nor a recent processor from Emotiva (only a UMC-1 which I sold to fund changes to my main rig) so I have no stake in the outcome.

But I do agree with what other's have said about synergy. I found the Emotiva amps run more happily when connected to Emotiva equipment upstream. Even when the Pre/Pro/Processor has enough voltage and headroom to reach desired listening levels without degradation of the signal, their amplifiers have (in my experience/opinion) unusually low input impedance. This in turn can stress the upstream equipment.

If using single ended this next part is not relevant. But I read you use the XLR connections which on the Emotiva amps are wired 'out of phase' in regards to the Pin configuration. But you run all emo amps so their relative phase with one another is the same. If you were to introduce a different amp while using an Emo amp still with XLR, this is something to be aware of. Your room having two larger openings is also something you need to take into account. The doorways or large openings into another room (such as open concept) are huge factors in regards to low end response. If I'm ever doing critical listening or would just rather have peace of mind when cranking my music, I always make sure I close the door to my listening/entertainment room.

Your power seems more than adequate so I would not concern myself with anything there. How you have it arranged currently with regards to power hookup is the best way to do it. As long as there is no ground loop interference being introduced.

Where I would focus my attention before spending on equipment, would be on some more treatments. Just first reflections and some bass trapping can make an unbelievably huge difference. I see you'll be moving in around a year or so which you may want to wait until after you have your new space to make further considerations on expensive equipment changes. Your room and the way you have it set up (new place or otherwise) will be one of the largest contributing factors to how you hear your music.

I have not used Dirac Live but have read that it is one of the better, if no the best room correction software available. However, I am sort of old school in my thinking, and the less in the way of the music for me, the better. I would rather make physical adjustments to my speakers, treat the room, and do all I could before employing any DSP. But that is just me. What you wrote about your speakers being set at -15db is just part of the reason why I shy away from those things. In my experience they always get the imaging correct, at the expense of sound stage and just a fullness to the music. Like whatever your source is being heavily compressed to fit into this box the DSP says it needs to go in.

If you have a moment, try setting up your 8805 w/o DSP engaged (settings should save, just turn the correction off). Go into the set up, set the distances to each speaker from the listening position yourself (be exacting), and set the levels for each speaker with an SPL meter. This has always been my cup of tea over DSP correction unless your room modes are really nasty and there is nothing you can do to smooth out its response. Also like you said if there is a difference in gain between your amps (32 vs 29db) take that into account first, and lower the level by 3db for the higher gain amps before running your pink noise sweep.

Sorry if this was a bit rambling but I hope it helps & saves you some money, at least for the meantime!

Cheers

[leonski]

Nov 7, 2020 12:48:14 GMT -5 metaldaze said:

I like to use as many tools that I have at my disposal to my advantage, in order to give my best effort towards the money being spent. I like to draw a line down the middle as best I can between manufacturer specs, reviews, and user feedback. That said here is a link to a forum where they test all kinds of equipment however the forum is not without it's own biases (everything is measurable, if it measures better it sounds better, all distortion is bad etc.) These are generalizations and I am not calling out anyone or anything, just making observations. Hi-Fi is a highly subjective blend of psychoacoustics and physics linked to emotional areas of response and pleasure in the brain. Everyone may listen to the same thing, and hear it totally different ways.

With that being said, here is a link to the Marantz 8805:
www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-marantz-av8805-av-processor.6926/

The measurements sort of line up with your listening experience, and what other posters have said. I have not owned this processor nor a recent processor from Emotiva (only a UMC-1 which I sold to fund changes to my main rig) so I have no stake in the outcome.

But I do agree with what other's have said about synergy. I found the Emotiva amps run more happily when connected to Emotiva equipment upstream. Even when the Pre/Pro/Processor has enough voltage and headroom to reach desired listening levels without degradation of the signal, their amplifiers have (in my experience/opinion) unusually low input impedance. This in turn can stress the upstream equipment.

If using single ended this next part is not relevant. But I read you use the XLR connections which on the Emotiva amps are wired 'out of phase' in regards to the Pin configuration. But you run all emo amps so their relative phase with one another is the same. If you were to introduce a different amp while using an Emo amp still with XLR, this is something to be aware of. Your room having two larger openings is also something you need to take into account. The doorways or large openings into another room (such as open concept) are huge factors in regards to low end response. If I'm ever doing critical listening or would just rather have peace of mind when cranking my music, I always make sure I close the door to my listening/entertainment room.

Your power seems more than adequate so I would not concern myself with anything there. How you have it arranged currently with regards to power hookup is the best way to do it. As long as there is no ground loop interference being introduced.

Where I would focus my attention before spending on equipment, would be on some more treatments. Just first reflections and some bass trapping can make an unbelievably huge difference. I see you'll be moving in around a year or so which you may want to wait until after you have your new space to make further considerations on expensive equipment changes. Your room and the way you have it set up (new place or otherwise) will be one of the largest contributing factors to how you hear your music.

I have not used Dirac Live but have read that it is one of the better, if no the best room correction software available. However, I am sort of old school in my thinking, and the less in the way of the music for me, the better. I would rather make physical adjustments to my speakers, treat the room, and do all I could before employing any DSP. But that is just me. What you wrote about your speakers being set at -15db is just part of the reason why I shy away from those things. In my experience they always get the imaging correct, at the expense of sound stage and just a fullness to the music. Like whatever your source is being heavily compressed to fit into this box the DSP says it needs to go in.

If you have a moment, try setting up your 8805 w/o DSP engaged (settings should save, just turn the correction off). Go into the set up, set the distances to each speaker from the listening position yourself (be exacting), and set the levels for each speaker with an SPL meter. This has always been my cup of tea over DSP correction unless your room modes are really nasty and there is nothing you can do to smooth out its response. Also like you said if there is a difference in gain between your amps (32 vs 29db) take that into account first, and lower the level by 3db for the higher gain amps before running your pink noise sweep.

Sorry if this was a bit rambling but I hope it helps & saves you some money, at least for the meantime!

Cheers

I give very low weight to 'reviews'.    The job of the reviewer it to find value, perhaps, but not necessarily what YOU value.    KNOW YOUR REVIEWER.      And regular folks?    Usually recommend what THEY own and seem to be happy with, not a broad selection.   I like Magnepan.   Doesn't matter much to a HT guy or someone who likes highly sensitive big-box speakers.    Go LISTEN to stuff or even join the local Audio Society for variety.

Room treatments CAN be the difference between good / adequate and terrific.   DIY can play a part here, since this isn't Rocket Science.   You absorb?   You reflect?    You Diffuse?  Certain principles, like 'first reflection' can provide good leverage without making yourself nuts.    ANACHOIC (no sound reflections) is BAD.   My panels generally can benefit from diffusion on the wall immediately behind them....

CONSIDER DIY.    OC703 can be had from 1" to 4" in thickness and in 2'x4' sheets....and in '6 packs' or whatever.   Some simple 1x2 framing for the 2" thick AND some open weave fabric, some staples and a few other odds and ends?   FINI and very good panels.   As good as you can buy for 3x the $$.     Diffusion is a little more difficult and I'm working on a design.  And have settled on a material (Not WOOD) for the construction.  Attached is my drawing for intended diffusion.

ALL rooms have 'modes'.     Set a goal?    Broad area of decent sound or a particular seat with as good as you can get.    Generally, as you make some place (particular seat or seats) better, you CAN have an adverse effect on somewhere else.
Go to 'ROOM MODE CALCULATOR' on Google and check it out.   You'll gain some insight into basic room design.

My sub was fairly happy in a partcular corner.    I tried to move it away from the corner as much as possible.   Bass was a little 'muddy' and my DEN?    A one-note Helmholtz which was like being in a 55 gallon drum being beat on.   Moving the sub about 14 feet across the SAME back wall to a non-corner?   FIXED everything.    Bass was now musical.   Stage was huge.  Happy Times.   

Attachments:

[metaldaze]

Agreed. Which is why I do my best using all these bits of knowledge to draw my own conclusions before parting ways with funds. In home trials with agreeable return windows are always the best. Hearing a speaker or set up at a dealer or friend's house is one thing, but in your room its another.

Sorry OP if this is getting off topic from the amplifiers

To expand a bit on what leonski said regarding treatments - yes you shouldn't just start throwing money at that either. Research can keep you busy and your money safe until you figure out what you'll need for you individual application. Companies like Acoustimac and GIK Acoustics have reps online you can chat with, as well as a free calculator you can use to determine the relative number of panels you may need. And whether or not you'll want absorption, diffusion or a combination of the two.

Here are two links to websites with good information as well as interactive calculators and graphics to help give you a better idea:

realtraps.com/modecalc.htm

amcoustics.com/tools/amroc?l=14&w=11.5&h=8.5&ft=true&re=DIN%2018041%20-%20Music

DIY is also a good way to get better sound without spending a bunch once you better understand your individual needs. I have 29 panels in my room. It's dimensions are 14'x 11.5'x 8.5'. Of those panels 10 I made myself with either 2 inch Owens Corning 703 for the (6) wall panels, and 4 inch Mineral Wool for the (4) bass traps (floor to wall boundaries). There's 8 more bass traps I bought from GIK Acoustics to hang as well as 242 panels, a few smaller panels and 4 diffusors. The ones I bought I did largely on the basis of aesthetics, but GIK has some really nice products that do exactly what you want in the bass region, without taking too much out of the room (Anechoic like leonski is saying). Although their order lead time was quite long due to covid. So I DIY'd some while I waited. There's plenty of how to videos to make your own. Once I got the insulation I used some edge hardener (I made frameless panels), got some nice fabric locally that is transparent for acoustics, wrapped and glued the cut fabric to the insulation with high strength 3M spray adhesive.

A few beers and an afternoon later I was all set. It was pretty easy, just make sure you are in an open or well ventilated area when applying the spray adhesive! LOL

I also searched long and hard locally to find the insulation I needed and came up short. I wound up ordering all my DIY insulations from this website: [the link is the actual one I ordered from for my 6 wall panels]

www.buyinsulationproductstore.com/owens-corning-2-703-fiberglass-acoustic-board-free-shipping/

I was really happy, I ordered in the afternoon and it was at my door by noon the next day. Turns out I live near one of their warehouses so I got lucky but it was a positive experience especially since my made to order panels took over 6 weeks. I want to add I have no affiliation with any of the companies or links I posted. I just wanted to share with you where I got my information and materials from

Cheers!

[leonski]

Nov 9, 2020 11:22:14 GMT -5 metaldaze said:

Agreed. Which is why I do my best using all these bits of knowledge to draw my own conclusions before parting ways with funds. In home trials with agreeable return windows are always the best. Hearing a speaker or set up at a dealer or friend's house is one thing, but in your room its another.

Sorry OP if this is getting off topic from the amplifiers

To expand a bit on what leonski said regarding treatments - yes you shouldn't just start throwing money at that either. Research can keep you busy and your money safe until you figure out what you'll need for you individual application. Companies like Acoustimac and GIK Acoustics have reps online you can chat with, as well as a free calculator you can use to determine the relative number of panels you may need. And whether or not you'll want absorption, diffusion or a combination of the two.

Here are two links to websites with good information as well as interactive calculators and graphics to help give you a better idea:

realtraps.com/modecalc.htm

amcoustics.com/tools/amroc?l=14&w=11.5&h=8.5&ft=true&re=DIN%2018041%20-%20Music

DIY is also a good way to get better sound without spending a bunch once you better understand your individual needs. I have 29 panels in my room. It's dimensions are 14'x 11.5'x 8.5'. Of those panels 10 I made myself with either 2 inch Owens Corning 703 for the (6) wall panels, and 4 inch Mineral Wool for the (4) bass traps (floor to wall boundaries). There's 8 more bass traps I bought from GIK Acoustics to hang as well as 242 panels, a few smaller panels and 4 diffusors. The ones I bought I did largely on the basis of aesthetics, but GIK has some really nice products that do exactly what you want in the bass region, without taking too much out of the room (Anechoic like leonski is saying). Although their order lead time was quite long due to covid. So I DIY'd some while I waited. There's plenty of how to videos to make your own. Once I got the insulation I used some edge hardener (I made frameless panels), got some nice fabric locally that is transparent for acoustics, wrapped and glued the cut fabric to the insulation with high strength 3M spray adhesive.

A few beers and an afternoon later I was all set. It was pretty easy, just make sure you are in an open or well ventilated area when applying the spray adhesive! LOL

I also searched long and hard locally to find the insulation I needed and came up short. I wound up ordering all my DIY insulations from this website: [the link is the actual one I ordered from for my 6 wall panels]

www.buyinsulationproductstore.com/owens-corning-2-703-fiberglass-acoustic-board-free-shipping/

I was really happy, I ordered in the afternoon and it was at my door by noon the next day. Turns out I live near one of their warehouses so I got lucky but it was a positive experience especially since my made to order panels took over 6 weeks. I want to add I have no affiliation with any of the companies or links I posted. I just wanted to share with you where I got my information and materials from

Cheers

Here is a drawing I did of a FRAME for sound panels. If you DIY do NOT INSTALL A BACK. Sound needs to pass thru the panel 2X. (coming and going, as it were). In addition? I'd SPACE the panel from the was by as much as 1".

Attachments:

[leonski]

Above, METALDAZE refers to a 'high strength 3M Spray Adhesive'.......

I HOPE he isn't talking about 3M77 I've used that stuff and it is AWFUL......Hate is not too strong a word.

I made a car window blocker out of Metalized MYLAR and within a few months, it simply DeLaminated.

Magnepan formerly Used a 3M product sticking the wires to the Mylar. Delams were part of Magnepan Lore and how to 'fix' the subject

of countless posts and DIY suggestions. The originator of Magnepan was a former 3M employee and had access to the entire catelogue.....

[metaldaze]

Nov 29, 2020 13:27:43 GMT -5 leonski said:

......Hate is not too strong a word. 

Ha. I can relate to that sentiment pretty well.

No the stuff in the green can is what I used.  "Hi-Strength 90 Spay Adhesive" and is $3 in change more expensive than the 77.  

It's not fool proof and requires some finesse, but the ones I made were in the spirit of trying DIY and saving some money. Didn't have to be perfect. But came out mostly better than I expected.  It worked well for my needs and I would use it again if I needed to make more. I've had the panels and bass traps I made for over 6 months so far and there's been no separation in the fabric or sag.