DYohn
Emo VIPs 
Posts: 18,487
|
Post by DYohn on Nov 23, 2020 15:04:32 GMT -5
And, again I don't have a Nucleus, but my server is on 24/7. It is fanless and uses SSDs. It runs at about 95F on the Athlon processor and 78F on the SSDs. So not hot at all. No need to cycle it - in fact the last time I power cycled it was when I upgraded the SSDs earlier this year.
|
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Nov 23, 2020 17:16:29 GMT -5
Follow up questions, please:
1. Is there a notable difference in the sound if different power supplies are used? If so, what supply is recommended?
2. What is the size limit on internal SSDs for the Nucleus+?
3. What SSD format is required for ROCK / Nucleus (or are they different)?
4. Initially, this Nucleus+ will be run with a directly-attached Audioquest Dragonfly DAC. Is there any ⅛" stereo plug to 2-RCA-males cord that sounds "better," and if so, better how? I currently have only an Emotiva adapter.
5. Is there any significant difference between Qobuz and TIDAL? I realize, if I remember right, that Qobuz has more high-res files than TIDAL and TIDAL has more MQA files than Qobuz? Which sound better?
6. Audioquest makes a "jitterbug" for (obviously) jitter reduction. With a stable USB source, like a ROCK or Nucleus, is the jitterbug worth paying for?
7. Are some SSDs "better" for ROCK/Nucleus use than others? I've read that even the cheapest SSDs are excellent for playback use because the cheap SSDs are limited only in their number of write-cycles. Paying more for any SSD of the same capacity gets one more robust and durable write performance, but exactly the same read performance. Is this true?
8. What questions am I not asking that I should?
Thanks - Boomzilla
|
|
KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,261
|
Post by KeithL on Nov 23, 2020 18:03:44 GMT -5
I don't do Roon... so I'm only going to pipe in on the things I do know about...
1.
A computer is basically a digital noise generator.
The very idea that simply substituting a different power supply would make a big difference is sort of silly. (For example, replacing the switch mode power supply on what is essentially a switch mode device, is not going to reduce the overall noise floor.) If anything, it might help, if done in conjunction with OTHER things... like an isolated USB output port with a separate power supply.
2. Normally, when selecting an SSD, you want to get one that is much larger than what you need. This prevents excessive wear by allowing the built-in wear spreading algorithms to do their job. I would expect this NOT to matter with a music server (where most files are only written once - then read many times).
I would also note that "SSDs are NOT forever"... in fact they do not have especially good long term storage characteristics. So DO make sure you keep a backup of your music library.
3. In an 1/8" to RCA adapter about the only "electrical parameter" that is at all likely to be audible is a nice solid tight connector. 1/8" connectors are rather small, and not mechanically especially solid - so one that makes good solid contact may avoid occasional crunchy noises.
Beyond that - it's a piece of wire. (And, yes, our adapters were actually pretty nice.)
I would also note whether you hear background noise from the computer's power supply bleeding through into the audio. (It certainly did with the original DragonFly I owned once upon a time.)
If so, then the solution is normally a USB ground isolator. (You can get one for about $50... and, while some "audiophile widgets" include this function, many do not.)
6. The AudioQuest "jitterbug" is NOT a re-clocker or a jitter suppressor. It is a USB NOISE FILTER. (The idea, which has at least some merit, is that, by reducing noise, you will reduce jitter.)
(Although I can't say I've ever seen any proof that it does actually reduce noise on the USB line.) But it sure is a catchy name... right?
And, when it was first offered for sale, "jitter" was a much more well known Bogey Man (or would that be Boogey Man) than noise.
7. In general the main benefit of more expensive SSDs is a longer service life. The more expensive ones do in fact have certain other benefits including performance benefits in some specific areas. (But their performance is also a tiny bit poorer in other areas.)
However, overall, none of the differences should make any difference in an audio application. (And getting twice the capacity for the same price is a definite plus.)
8. I think I'd be asking about the fans - or lack thereof. Computers with fans vary widely in terms of how noisy those fans are...
If you plan to keep the computer in your theater room I would choose one with a quiet case and quiet fans. I would also try to choose one with a relatively wimpy graphics card. (For example, use a board with on-board Intel graphics, and forego a separate graphics card with a powerful engine.)
(Fancy graphics cards tend to consume more power, and make more heat, which means more and louder fans.)
Follow up questions, please: 1. Is there a notable difference in the sound if different power supplies are used? If so, what supply is recommended? 2. What is the size limit on internal SSDs for the Nucleus+? 3. What SSD format is required for ROCK / Nucleus (or are they different)? 4. Initially, this Nucleus+ will be run with a directly-attached Audioquest Dragonfly DAC. Is there any ⅛" stereo plug to 2-RCA-males cord that sounds "better," and if so, better how? I currently have only an Emotiva adapter. 5. Is there any significant difference between Qobuz and TIDAL? I realize, if I remember right, that Qobuz has more high-res files than TIDAL and TIDAL has more MQA files than Qobuz? Which sound better? 6. Audioquest makes a "jitterbug" for (obviously) jitter reduction. With a stable USB source, like a ROCK or Nucleus, is the jitterbug worth paying for? 7. Are some SSDs "better" for ROCK/Nucleus use than others? I've read that even the cheapest SSDs are excellent for playback use because the cheap SSDs are limited only in their number of write-cycles. Paying more for any SSD of the same capacity gets one more robust and durable write performance, but exactly the same read performance. Is this true? 8. What questions am I not asking that I should? Thanks - Boomzilla |
|
|
|
Post by audiobill on Nov 23, 2020 18:13:19 GMT -5
Good to see @keithl embrace the fundamentals of streaming audio!!!
At last!!!
|
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,261
|
Post by KeithL on Nov 23, 2020 18:16:00 GMT -5
Just to clarify something...
In typical usage scenarios "spinny drives" currently are still considered to have a much longer service life than SSDs... As well as a much longer storage life if used as "offline storage"... One rarely, if ever, sees a modern spinning hard drive fail due to bearing wear... Most eventually die due to electronic parts failure...
The benefits of SSDs are speed, especially for random access, extremely low noise, and lower power consumption...
Incidentally, since every computer uses a regulated power supply, "power supply voltage swings" should also be a non-issue.
The reason I'm specifically interested in the Nucleus+ is that I'm being sent one for review. It's not here yet, but I'm wanting to do research in anticipation of its arrival. So, sep297 , I found out what "control4" is, and what is it used for. But, since you seem knowledgable, what does your "etc. etc." refer to in relation to the Nucleus? And, audiobill , is it reasonable to mention, compare, and contrast the generic NUCs against the Nucleus+ in the review? I would think that the market for the NUC solution would be a virtually totally separate market than the customer-pool that would be interested in the actual Nucleus products. The NUC base is: Technically competent Value oriented DIY-friendly The Nucleus customers, on the other hand, would maybe tend to be: Less thrift-oriented More eager to have a turn-key solution Willing to pay for technical support from Roon Of course, I could be wrong, but that's the divide I see. It would be unlikely for a NUC user to ever buy a Nucleus from Roon; it would be equally unlikely for a Nucleus customer to be interested in a NUC. Your thoughts? novisnick - It is true that heat/cool cycles can reduce service life. But it's also true that for moving parts (hard-drives in particular), the service life is generally measured in "run-hours." The platter bearings, in particular, only wear when the drive is running. The two ways to get around the inevitable wear-out period are to: Shut the drive down when not in use or Use a SSD with no moving parts Now it's true that any computer can be set to shut down the HDD (internal or external) after X-minutes of non-use. But it's also true that no data can be read from the HDD on startup until the platters reach full speed. I wouldn't think this a particular issue. BUT having the NUC (or the Nucleus) with attendant data-drive on all the time introduces the virtual certainty of power supply voltage swings (unless a line-conditioner is used) and possible data corruption on abrupt power loss (unless a battery backup is also used). So in addition to the NUC or Nucleus, I assume that one should also factor in the price of a UPS/conditioner? |
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,261
|
Post by KeithL on Nov 23, 2020 18:23:05 GMT -5
I've always thought the idea of streaming audio was cool... Although, to be honest, I have little interest in the sort of "deep content" offered by Roon (I rarely even read CD jackets).
However I still keep file copies of any album I truly wouldn't want to live without. (One never knows when a certain album will disappear from their favorite streaming service when someone doesn't keep up the license payments.)
Incidentally, at this point, I've settled on Amazon Prime Music (the paid version)... They seem to combine good quality with an excellent selection... (probably second only to Spotify)...
Both Tidal and QoBuz seem to lack many of the albums that I actually might want to listen to... (And, to me, MQA is "just one more round of remasters", with about the same track record...)
Good to see @keithl embrace the fundamentals of streaming audio!!! At last!!! |
|
|
|
Post by novisnick on Nov 23, 2020 21:35:35 GMT -5
Yeah - I’m a “belt & suspenders” guy myself. I keep an (unplugged) backup disc at home AND I use Backblaze. Well, I guess I’ve added a rope to the equation. I have one HD that I use in rotation with two others. 😮🤔 |
|
|
|
Post by novisnick on Nov 23, 2020 21:41:29 GMT -5
Good to see @keithl embrace the fundamentals of streaming audio!!! At last!!! Wait for it! ⏰ 😁🤣 |
|
|
|
Post by novisnick on Nov 23, 2020 21:46:53 GMT -5
I do insulate noise from my Mini to my DAC via ethernet and streamer..
|
|
|
|
Post by novisnick on Nov 23, 2020 21:52:44 GMT -5
I've always thought the idea of streaming audio was cool... Although, to be honest, I have little interest in the sort of "deep content" offered by Roon (I rarely even read CD jackets).
However I still keep file copies of any album I truly wouldn't want to live without. (One never knows when a certain album will disappear from their favorite streaming service when someone doesn't keep up the license payments.)
Incidentally, at this point, I've settled on Amazon Prime Music (the paid version)... They seem to combine good quality with an excellent selection... (probably second only to Spotify)...
Both Tidal and QoBuz seem to lack many of the albums that I actually might want to listen to... (And, to me, MQA is "just one more round of remasters", with about the same track record...)
Good to see @keithl embrace the fundamentals of streaming audio!!! At last!!!  |
|
|
|
Post by audiobill on Nov 24, 2020 6:52:49 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by wilburthegoose on Nov 24, 2020 9:26:54 GMT -5
My take:
1. Is there a notable difference in the sound if different power supplies are used? If so, what supply is recommended?
NO
2. What is the size limit on internal SSDs for the Nucleus+?
I used an SSD that was 128 Gb - but it's only for the operating system.
I used external - a lot less expensive, and I don't care about the drive noise because it's in a closet.
3. What SSD format is required for ROCK / Nucleus (or are they different)?
They're the same. ROCK = Nucleus.
4. Initially, this Nucleus+ will be run with a directly-attached Audioquest Dragonfly DAC. Is there any ⅛" stereo plug to 2-RCA-males cord that sounds "better," and if so, better how? I currently have only an Emotiva adapter.
It's exactly the same answer as if you were running Roon Server on a PC or Mac.
5. Is there any significant difference between Qobuz and TIDAL? I realize, if I remember right, that Qobuz has more high-res files than TIDAL and TIDAL has more MQA files than Qobuz? Which sound better?
They sounded the same to me, but Tidal's catalog was more in line with my tastes. Qobuz is much better for classical.
6. Audioquest makes a "jitterbug" for (obviously) jitter reduction. With a stable USB source, like a ROCK or Nucleus, is the jitterbug worth paying for?
No clue - I use a Sonore ultraRendu which I love.
7. Are some SSDs "better" for ROCK/Nucleus use than others? I've read that even the cheapest SSDs are excellent for playback use because the cheap SSDs are limited only in their number of write-cycles. Paying more for any SSD of the same capacity gets one more robust and durable write performance, but exactly the same read performance. Is this true?
No difference - I still think you get more bang for the buck with a magnetic drive for your music files, especially if the drive isn't in the room where you'll be listening.
8. What questions am I not asking that I should?
I think you're over complicating things. ROCK/Nucleus is really quite simple with zero tweaking required.
|
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,261
|
Post by KeithL on Nov 24, 2020 12:25:13 GMT -5
I'll start by admitting that scanned this article rather than reading every word.... and I can't say it contains anything I didn't already know. From what I know all of the facts are true and correct as the author stated them... However, in my opinion, he also chose to state them in the absolutely most controversial and inflammatory way possible. For example, in the music industry, when we refer to things using the term "lossy"... We are referring to data streams or formats where information is deliberately deleted to save space or bandwidth. And, in most cases, this is done "perceptually" - which is a nice way of saying that "they discard the details most people probably won't notice". This is true for MP3 and AAC audio files, and for Dolby Digital audio, and for JPG images, and for the MPG compression used on Blu-Ray discs. If your favorite movie wasn't compressed using lossy compression it would take between five and ten Blu-Ray discs to hold it...
And, in case you didn't know, h.264 and h.265 are both lossy compression CODECs... You have probably never seen a movie or video that hasn't been through at least one stage of lossy compression...
And a typical movie you see on your favorite streaming service, which still manages to look pretty good, is far worse than even a consumer disc.
Note that this definition is quite different than "simply failing to deliver a bit-perfect data stream"... which can happen for a variety of reasons. In the case of Amazon music what they fail to do is that they fail to support bit perfect playback. They DO NOT yet support the "WASAPI" option on Windows which offers true bit-perfect playback. And, since this is something that both QoBuz and Tidal, among others, do offer, it is a significant omission. And, arguably, it marks them for exclusion as "a true audiophile streaming site". It also seems like an odd omission since it isn't that difficult to include.
(They also have an annoying affectation of referring to CD quality as "HD"...) However, to be fair, it is UNFAIR to clump them together with streaming services that really are "intentionally lossy"... like Spotify. (And note that Apple has "gotten away with" offering lossy music on iTunes for a very long time.... )
I should also point out that "streaming is streaming"... So, if you really can't tolerate the occasional hiccough or dropout, then you probably shouldn't use it...
And, if a single split second of pixelation is going to ruin your movie, you'd better buy the actual disc there too.
I use Amazon Music now for one very simple reason... I've had QoBuz for a long time and, to be quite blunt, quite often they DON'T have the album I want to listen to. (And an album I want to hear is about as far as it can be from "bit-perfect" if they don't have it... ) Ditto for Tidal, who has a better selection of what I actually listen to, but still far from what I would call good. I stopped using Tidal simply because, a lot of the time, they didn't have the album I wanted to hear... And, after all, the whole reason to have streaming is "because they have all the albums I want to listen to"... So, if they DON'T have all the albums I want to hear, then it isn't working for me.
(I always think of that old TV commercial... where the cheap motel doesn't have phones, or A/C, but they do have "every movie ever made" on TV.)
I would honestly say that, in terms of coverage, Spotify is probably the best.
But, sadly, the true lossy compression they use is actually sometimes audible enough to be noticeable and annoying... To be quite candid I do find the fact that Amazon Music doesn't support WASAPI mode to be "philosophically annoying"...
And it offends my audiophile sensibilities that they seem unwilling or unable to fix that small but serious omission...
So I set the system sample rate to 24/96k or 24/192k... Because, while re-sampling is always better off avoided, upsampling is usually inaudible, or at least "mostly harmless".
And I'd rather hear an album from Amazon... being upsampled...
Than NOT HEAR IT on Tidal or QoBuz, because they don't have it... And, since I consider streaming to be a valuable adjunct to my music collection, and not a replacement for it, that works well for me. (And, to be honest, if it was an album I really cared a lot about, I'd have bought the CD or actually downloaded the high-res file...) But, yes, I'd be happier if Amazon DID offer bit-perfect playback... But, at the moment, it simply seems to be the best alternative...
|
|
DYohn
Emo VIPs
Posts: 18,487
|
Post by DYohn on Nov 24, 2020 14:16:46 GMT -5
I love how a thread about hardware morphed into an argument about Tidal, Qobuz and Amazon.  Here's what I think. IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER. Use whatever you want/can. If it sounds good to YOU then it is. Don't rely on ANY streaming service to have every possible title that might suit your taste: that's why you can BUY content and make a local copy for use in your system. It's pretty simple. |
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Nov 25, 2020 11:11:46 GMT -5
DYohn points out the bottom line for streaming services - NONE of them are going to have every song you're looking for. Therefore, no matter which (or even how many) streaming services you get, you'll STILL need to keep your own library to ensure access to all the songs you want.
|
|
klinemj
Emo VIPs
Official Emofest Scribe
Posts: 15,090
|
Post by klinemj on Nov 25, 2020 11:36:16 GMT -5
DYohn points out the bottom line for streaming services - NONE of them are going to have every song you're looking for. Therefore, no matter which (or even how many) streaming services you get, you'll STILL need to keep your own library to ensure access to all the songs you want. That's what I do! I am looking forward to your thoughts on the Nucleus. How long before you expect to have a review ready? Mark |
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Nov 25, 2020 11:45:10 GMT -5
DYohn points out the bottom line for streaming services - NONE of them are going to have every song you're looking for. Therefore, no matter which (or even how many) streaming services you get, you'll STILL need to keep your own library to ensure access to all the songs you want. That's what I do! I am looking forward to your thoughts on the Nucleus. How long before you expect to have a review ready? Mark Normally, reviews take from three to four weeks. However, with everything else going on, that timetable may expand some. And I've not yet received the review item anyway. |
|
|
|
Post by donh50 on Nov 25, 2020 12:02:09 GMT -5
I'm curious to see the review. I've been considering Roon and debating what HW to get. Lots of options and strong proponents on both sides.
Unless there is some power/ground problem (rare but happens, usually with a bad design) bits are bits over the wire and the source does not matter. The data rates have to be resolved and data buffered before the DAC, and virtually every DAC made these days generates its own clean clock (and power) source.
SSDs are faster but generally (mostly IME) have higher failure rates than HDDs -- SSDs have a lot of redundancy built-in but tend to fail with little warning. They need to be on for a while to do internal cell (bit) swaps to maximize their lifetime. I have a number of them, generally enterprise-level'ish SATA (haven't convinced myself to pay for SAS for home use). HDDs tend to give a little more warning IME. I tend to sacrifice a little performance (don't need it, not the gamer my boys are) and disable write caching so writes go straight to the drive instead of sitting in memory awaiting a glitch.
For backup, I have local (portable USB) backup drives, a NAS RAID setup connected to my router, and a backup network drive in a secure fireproof on-site location, but need to get some sort of Cloud backup eventually. Cost and security are an issue, just haven't waded through all the research yet.
IME/IMO/FWIWFM etc. - Don
|
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Nov 25, 2020 12:39:36 GMT -5
Hi donh50 - The only reason I'd consider a SSD for music playback is that there is not room inside a Nucleus (nor the average NUC) for a "conventional" HDD. Also, spinning platters take an order of magnitude more power than do SSDs. This is a concern when trying to make a fan-less server. And the "SSDs are not as reliable as conventional HDDs" is not entirely true, from what I've read. If you're writing to the disc regularly, then yes, conventional spinning discs are more reliable. But a music library is a "write once - read many" device. In that service, I've read that SSDs are at least as, and in some cases, more reliable than conventional drives. But I don't claim to be an expert on this, and am relying on what I've read online and in magazines. Cordially - Boom |
|
|
|
Post by donh50 on Nov 25, 2020 12:53:05 GMT -5
Hi donh50 - The only reason I'd consider a SSD for music playback is that there is not room inside a Nucleus (nor the average NUC) for a "conventional" HDD. Also, spinning platters take an order of magnitude more power than do SSDs. This is a concern when trying to make a fan-less server. And the "SSDs are not as reliable as conventional HDDs" is not entirely true, from what I've read. If you're writing to the disc regularly, then yes, conventional spinning discs are more reliable. But a music library is a "write once - read many" device. In that service, I've read that SSDs are at least as, and in some cases, more reliable than conventional drives. But I don't claim to be an expert on this, and am relying on what I've read online and in magazines. Cordially - Boom SSDs are silent so in some cases, e.g. with the box is in the media room, that is a consideration. My day job is in enterprise storage so my info on power and reliability may differ. SSD power has improved, true; just a few years ago they required significantly more than HDDs. For the drives I've seen SSDs tend to require more power but I am no expert on that either (I am on the analog SerDes side of things). It depends on size and performance, etc. Too many variables. SSDs utilize a great deal of internal redundancy to provide good "external" reliability. But reliability, meh, any drive failure is a disaster! Lost all kinds, always at the worst possible time, they can sense when to die... |
|
