need advice for new room build, power requirements

[pdasterly]

Finally getting around to building my system, rack will be in place in couple days. System is 3 xpa-1 monoblocks, upa-500 and bassx a-800. Also have 2 buttkicker 1000amps. I put 2 20amp outlets, i dont think it will be enough,  should i put more?

The monoblocks power the front 3(rf-7iii/rc-64iii)
upa-500 on surrounds in 4-channel, 4x KL-7800-THX IN-WALL SPEAKER
bass-x a-800 in bridge mode, 4channel on 4x RP-500SA(atmos)

[davidl81]

Nov 28, 2020 21:41:04 GMT -5 pdasterly said:

Finally getting around to building my system, rack will be in place in couple days. System is 3 xpa-1 monoblocks, upa-500 and bassx a-800. Also have 2 buttkicker 1000amps. I put 2 20amp outlets, i dont think it will be enough,  should i put more?

The monoblocks power the front 3(rf-7iii/rc-64iii)
upa-500 on surrounds in 4-channel, 4x KL-7800-THX IN-WALL SPEAKER
bass-x a-800 in bridge mode, 4channel on 4x RP-500SA(atmos)

You are fine power wise. I’d put the XPA’s one one line and the other amps on the other. I have a DR-2 and a XPA-9 on one 20A line and 2 S15 subs and all of my other items (RMC-1, Blu Ray etc) on another and I’ve never had any issue. The most amps I’ve ever seen on the DR-2 and XPA-9 was about 12 amps for a brief second trying to demo and see how many amps I could draw. It was stupid loud and I’d never watch anything at that volume normally.

[leonski]

How Loud do you require?

David, above makes a valid point, but never actually MAKES the point. He says 12 amps current draw resulted in 'stupid loud'. A single 20 amp circuit will

provide 16 amps contiuous and 20 amps short time period. Not counting voltage drop which WILL happen under those circumstances.

That should tell you that you probably do NOT need that kind of power. Like having a race car running on pump regular gas, you'll get a fraction out of it that

you paid for. Klipsch claims 100db for the RF-7III which based on history with Klipsch is probably Slightly overstated. but still and all, these are fairly high


Years ago when I had JUST a Carver Cube off about 200x2@8ohms, I could flicker the house lights in time to the music when driven right to RedLine. I had

the map connected to VERY low sensitivity Magnepans and they'd pretty much use all the power the amp could produce. Maybe about 250 a side at 4 ohms?
sensitivity speakers. 100 a side? 150 a side? 64 WATTS (6 DOUBLINGS) Results in 118db continuous with EASILY around 125db peaks at about 500 to 600 watts.

Which the speaker will NOT withstand. For more than a few seconds.

But that being said? Since you are going to do it anyway, might as well drop a couple more 20 amp circuits......and even install a Sub Panel and feed each circuit with 10ga wire.

Thats the only way you'll get even close to all the power you've paid for......

[DYohn]

A single 20-amp circuit is all you need, but if you are running power install two. Then use on for your amp(s) and the other for everything else. Why? Just because.

[novisnick]

Nov 29, 2020 14:00:48 GMT -5 DYohn said:

A single 20-amp circuit is all you need, but if you are running power install two. Then use on for your amp(s) and the other for everything else. Why? Just because.

Why?

LOL

[DYohn]

Finishing my thought: because it will make you feel better.

[rbk123]

He will, of course, have to upgrade his power cords..

[leonski]

Nov 29, 2020 21:06:14 GMT -5 rbk123 said:

He will, of course, have to upgrade his power cords..

You say that tongue in cheek.....BUT, Does the XPA-1, a very high power amplifier, come WITH at least a 12 ga cord?   Or more probably a 14?

Just a generation or so of EMO amps, ago, one of the big monoblocks CAME with a 20 amp IEC plug.....3 parallel and horizonal blades.    Wall outlet for 20 amp is a ground pin, and a pair of blades at right angles.....Than owners were running

Pairs of 'em on a 15amp circuit.  With who knows WHAT other gear?  

I blows me away that someone would spend the Big Bucks on a high power amp than STARVE it from the wall.     THAN run a 'system' with those amps and nearly 100db sensitive speakers which would certainly run you out of the house with a 

Fraction of the full output of said Mondo Amps.    If the speakers will take it?    50 watts continuous and 500 watt peaks?  (10db crest factor?)   That's OVER 115db continuous.....

As for an upgrade in power cord?    IF you are running a 20 amp service AND the amp comes with a 14ga cord?     At least send off for some Belden 83803 12 ga and the appropriate connectors.     XPA-1 has what?   A 1200va transformer?   

[Deleted]

Nov 29, 2020 22:00:56 GMT -5 leonski said:

Nov 29, 2020 21:06:14 GMT -5 rbk123 said:

He will, of course, have to upgrade his power cords..

You say that tongue in cheek.....BUT, Does the XPA-1, a very high power amplifier, come WITH at least a 12 ga cord?   Or more probably a 14?

Just a generation or so of EMO amps, ago, one of the big monoblocks CAME with a 20 amp IEC plug.....3 parallel and horizonal blades.    Wall outlet for 20 amp is a ground pin, and a pair of blades at right angles.....Than owners were running

Pairs of 'em on a 15amp circuit.  With who knows WHAT other gear?  

I blows me away that someone would spend the Big Bucks on a high power amp than STARVE it from the wall.     THAN run a 'system' with those amps and nearly 100db sensitive speakers which would certainly run you out of the house with a 

Fraction of the full output of said Mondo Amps.    If the speakers will take it?    50 watts continuous and 500 watt peaks?  (10db crest factor?)   That's OVER 115db continuous.....

As for an upgrade in power cord?    IF you are running a 20 amp service AND the amp comes with a 14ga cord?     At least send off for some Belden 83803 12 ga and the appropriate connectors.     XPA-1 has what?   A 1200va transformer?   

After running dedicated circuit w/ 20 amp or higher breaker plug all your accessories including amp into one single 15amp power/conditioner strip 

[rbk123]

Nov 29, 2020 22:00:56 GMT -5 leonski said:

I blows me away that someone would spend the Big Bucks on a high power amp than STARVE it from the wall.     THAN run a 'system' with those amps and nearly 100db sensitive speakers which would certainly run you out of the house with a 

It wouldn't be starving. With such high efficiency speakers, they would have to be playing it well beyond their ear drum's capacity before the amp started needing more from the wall. But I agree it is an odd pairing.
Even with low efficiency speakers, it would easily cover 95% of their listening use cases before hitting the circuit's limit. Still your point is valid - if you're going to lay down the dough for that kind of gear, why not go the full 9 yards.

[leonski]

EXACTLY:
So what's the Purpose of so much power?    A more appropriate amplifier more in keeping with speakers approaching 100db sensitivity would certainly work.  (Klipsch is typically optimistic)
If the OP had some very low sensitivity speakers and a larger room (in CUBIC FEET) I wouldn't blink.  
This is a SYSTEM.   Or it's supposed to be one.    I'd no more run KW amps with 100db speakers than an 8 Watt SET with my Maggies. 

I think a few choices from EMO history would work fine.   The XPA-1L might be nice.   STILL a little powerful, but leave 'em in class 'A' mode
and reap any potential benefits.    You will probably never exceed 10 to 15 watts per speaker ANYWAY.....

Since many people live and die by measurments and 'specs', look at distortion / power of virtually ALL SS amps.   

Linked is the Stereophile measured data for the Parasound JC1+     This is a near-cost-no-object design and certainly aspirational for many

www.stereophile.com/content/parasound-halo-jc-1-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements-0

Distortion Decreases from some level to a low point around 10 to 20 watts.    Than increases to 'redline' at about 500 watts.   a LOT of power.  

This is TYPICAL of solid state amps.    

If you are concerned with such things, than a lower power amp will reach its minima at a lower power.    Very useable with high sensitivity speakers.    
I don't know how long your EARS would last in a room full of Klipsch running 10 to 20 watts EACH with peaks at least 10x that.     

[ttocs]

The manual for one of my amplifiers states that there should be a dedicated 15A circuit for this amplifier. I was curious, so I measured as best as I could with what I have which will only measure to durations as short as 1ms. It's a 5 channel amp but only two channels were active, the fuses were pulled from the other three channels, so only two channels were being powered. The volume level was high but not as loud as when watching a movie, just under 95dB. The meter measured 8-1/2 Amps for the peaks and over 3 Amps continuous. The music produced that Peak Current level often. Does this amp need a 15A circuit? Yes, but it's got a 20A circuit.

I get by with seven 20A circuits. Need more. I didn't know I'd be adding more subs later.

It's cheap to add circuits while the electrician is already working on circuits, assuming there's space in the panel for "proper" breakers, not the cheaters. Yes, most panels are allowed to use a certain amount of cheaters, but when you get to that point you're better off with a dedicated sub-panel.

[davidl81]

Really the more that I think about it my DR-2 and XPA-9 should draw more amps at peak power compared to the three XPA-1s since the XPA have a huge amount of capacitors to draw those power spikes from instead of needing wall power like my DR-2/XPA-9 do with the switching power supply if I and thinking about this correctly.
Ultimately of course it would not hurt to add additional 20A breakers, but I just don't think you need them. You will not be starving your amps for power and I highly doubt you will blow a fuse. But if you are already running them the cost for two more is likely not that much more.

[SteveH]

If you can add more power, future proof yourself and and run the wiring for dual voltage outlets. I ran wiring to use dual voltage outlets so my Emotiva gear can run off of 250VAC per NEC 2017.  Voltage drop is less using 250V.

[leonski]

My ENTIRE house has 'only' a 100 amp service.
So 7X @20 amp circuits would leave me with power to the kitchen and pretty much using CANDLES everywhere else.
I'd have to shut down part of the Audio system to run the Microwave!

Wow, that's a LOT of power for 2 channels. With all-5 driven, it'd really cut into a 15 amp circuit....-

Future Proof IS a good consideration.     

[ttocs]

Nov 30, 2020 16:08:08 GMT -5 leonski said:

My ENTIRE house has 'only' a 100 amp service.
So 7X @20 amp circuits would leave me with power to the kitchen and pretty much using CANDLES everywhere else.
I'd have to shut down part of the Audio system to run the Microwave!

Wow, that's a LOT of power for 2 channels. With all-5 driven, it'd really cut into a 15 amp circuit....-

Future Proof IS a good consideration.     

My house also has 100A service with a 30 space panel. If you add up all the Amps the breakers "could" represent, it's multiple times the panel rating. It's never expected that everything will need full power at the same moment. Also, the service wire from the utility is always bigger than the meter socket is rated at. In my area if I order 400A service, they install wire that's good for two service levels above so future upgrades are possible without mobilizing expensive crews. I recently called a power company to ask about how much bigger the service could be upgraded to at a house we built 8 years ago which is 400A buried service, and I was told they could go to 800A service and use the existing buried wires. So upgrading to 600A is no problemo as the Terminator said.

Just because there's a dedicated outlet that's rated for 20A doesn't mean it's going to be at a constant 80% x 20A all the time. I like the bigger pipe for the transients. Try breathing through two straws. You could probably do this for some period of time with not too much trouble. Now try breathing hard suddenly, I'll bet you can't. But with more straws you could breathe suddenly and more forcefully without being constrained. So while you don't need to breathe hard all the time, when you do it's good to have the extra capacity available when needed. Your lungs don't need to be as big as they are if you're just sitting in a chair, but run a sprint and you'll wish they were bigger.

Regarding the Krell 5 channel amp with only two driven, continuous Current draw at that volume level was over 3 Amps, so let's shoot high and call it 3.5A, and Idle amperage is rated at 1.1A. The amp is supposed to draw a max of 11A in 5 channel form. So, if it were to power five electrostatic speakers instead of only two, the amp probably would be running out of steam for the transient response on a 15A circuit, even thought the continuous draw is maybe around 7-8A. This is where I would think "compression" would be creeping in and crushing the transients. It's also why an amplifier will work, but how well will it work?

[leonski]

My bill this month was OVER 60$ for only 228KwH. This is a low usage. I've used 300+ a couple times this year.
I get a small credit for NOT using my 'baseline' allowance.
Also? KwH costs for ON PEAK are about 0.50$ per KwH while OFF PEAK is about 0.30$ per KwH.

I agree with having more power available than you 'use' or theoretically 'need'. Please look at MANY of my other posts about things like a PAIR of XPA-! amps on a single 15 amp circuit, which is SHARED with other stuff.

Your straw example is pretty good. People with LOTS of amp on LITTLE power should read it.

Years ago my Carver Cube came with a 15 amp fuse. Yep...An amp essentially rated at 200x2 or 500x1 (bridged) would suck a normal circuit down to the point where simple incandescent (those days!) on the same run would
flicker in time to the music.

100 amp requries 4ga. 200 amp would need 2/0 (two ought) I'll bet an electrician in this town would get AT LEAST 1500$ for the upgrade.....in this town. I'd build in all the required tie-ins for solar at the same time making that
installation somewhat easier at the box end....

BTW, I was 1/2 kidding about needing candles. But for sure, if your 7x20 circuits totally drew 50 amps......Certainly for peaks with ambitious amplification and low senssitivity speakers, I'd get the Bill From Hell. Check the rest of
my post for our rates here. SDGE motto is to 'Never Let Anything Interfere With The Executive Bonus Program'....