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Post by wilburthegoose on Dec 19, 2020 8:21:39 GMT -5
Keep in mind that Roon will work through any AirPlay device.
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 19, 2020 11:02:02 GMT -5
Were I to go Bluesound, Airplay, or Elac, I'd probably end up wanting a better DAC. The friend I have with the AURALiC Aries Mini contends that the DAC in the Mini is as good as anything else you can buy for $1,000, making the Mini a bargain at its price. From what I've read, the Aries Mini DAC is identical to the Aries / Vega combination, but without the femtoclocks. Since the Aries is just under $1,000, and the Vega just under $2,000, that makes the Mini a strong contender for its <$500 price on the used market.
When I had my Aries / Vega combo, I heard no difference between the femtoclocks on and off. So if I can get that sound for <$500, why not? My other impression of AURALiC gear is that it is built like a tank and isn't prone to malfunction. The only negative thing I could say about AURALiC is that their Lightning DS interface is clunky compared to jRiver or Roon.
I've further concluded that unless you are running multiple endpoints and/or multiple NAS sources via Roon, there's no need for the Nucleus products (or the NUC with ROCK alternatives). Any computer with reasonable RAM can run a simple Roon Core without an issue. Since my system uses one Library drive and only one endpoint, my Mac-Mini should work just fine as a Core machine. And with the Aries Mini as the endpoint, I should have excellent sound at minimum additional out-of-pocket expense.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 19, 2020 12:33:16 GMT -5
I've further concluded that unless you are running multiple endpoints and/or multiple NAS sources via Roon, there's no need for the Nucleus products (or the NUC with ROCK alternatives). Any computer with reasonable RAM can run a simple Roon Core without an issue. Since my system uses one Library drive and only one endpoint, my Mac-Mini should work just fine as a Core machine. And with the Aries Mini as the endpoint, I should have excellent sound at minimum additional out-of-pocket expense. I don't know how many endpoints one would have to run to need more than a simple computer. I have 10 (5 Sonos units, 2 R-Pi's, 2 PC's, and 1 UltraRendu). That said, at most, I have 2-3 running at the same time. But, by cheap little Dell 660 does fine. Mark
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Post by wilburthegoose on Dec 19, 2020 14:27:38 GMT -5
Boomzilla - I respectfully disagree on the NUC/Nucleus opinion. I ran Roon successfully on a Windows 10 PC for a couple of years, and on a whim I went to MicroCenter and purchased a NUC. Had ROCK set up and working in about 90 minutes, copied all my music files to a new USB drive and haven't looked back since. It's all about using a headless appliance (the NUC) versus a PC (or Mac, in your situation). The audio quality is the same (excellent), but I don't need to keep my PC on 24x7. Yes, I had been using an IP "wake up" function, but I just hate running a PC when you don't need to (I'm an Information Security pro, and I prefer to shrink my attack surface). Another actor is the need to apply Windows patches after Patch Tuesday. Of course I do that religiously, but I don't want those updates affecting the PC's up time when I'm listening to music (I listen at work almost any time I'm not in a MS Teams meeting) PS - The number of endpoints or NAS vs attached storage is, I think, a moot point.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Dec 19, 2020 14:31:05 GMT -5
Boom, your conclusions may be fine for YOU, but they are far from universal. A couple of points: Aurilic fans tend to be evangelical about their products, much like lovers of Chord DACs or Raspberry Pi devices. Take those statements with a grain of salt re: the DAC in the Aries. It's like someone saying a Mac is better than Windows or vice versa - it's coming from a fanboy. Second, I contend that using a computer to do double duty as a music server and as a generic home PC means you are not getting the most out of the music server. If it works for you for now, fine, but a dedicated server will always be better in the long run, and will normally sound better from the start.
As this is supposedly a Roon users thread, please do not try to speak for all Roon users. You don't speak for me.
-edit- note that I agree completely with Wilbur's comments above.
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 19, 2020 14:50:45 GMT -5
Boomzilla - I respectfully disagree on the NUC/Nucleus opinion. I ran Roon successfully on a Windows 10 PC for a couple of years, and on a whim I went to MicroCenter and purchased a NUC. Had ROCK set up and working in about 90 minutes, copied all my music files to a new USB drive and haven't looked back since. Did you have problems with the Win PC running your Roon Core? I'm not disparaging the use of either Nucleus or a NUC/ROCK combo. Only saying that for MY use, it doesn't seem worth the money. ...I don't need to keep my PC on 24x7... Nor would I plan to keep my Mac-Mini on 24/7. I'd only wake it up if I wanted to hear music. ...Another actor is the need to apply Windows patches after Patch Tuesday... I don't want those updates affecting the PC's up time when I'm listening to music... Not an issue with Mac - I can install updates (or not) whenever I choose. Boom, your conclusions may be fine for YOU, but they are far from universal. I never claimed they were. A couple of points: Aurilic fans tend to be evangelical about their products...Take those statements with a grain of salt... Although I respect my friend's opinion, I'm basing my statements on Auralic from my own experiences of owning and listening to their products. ...I contend that using a computer to do double duty as a music server and as a generic home PC means you are not getting the most out of the music server. If it works for you for now, fine, but a dedicated server will always be better in the long run, and will normally sound better from the start... Having now had specific experience with a Windows Roon Core, several Apple Roon Cores, and Roon's own Nucleus Plus, you're welcome to your opinion, but I strongly disagree. As this is supposedly a Roon users thread, please do not try to speak for all Roon users. You don't speak for me. I never claimed to speak for all Roon users, and I don't now. I prefaced my statement with "I've further concluded..." But perhaps you missed that part? I'd further point out that you don't speak for me either, and quit trying to put words in my mouth. Boomzilla
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Dec 19, 2020 14:53:56 GMT -5
Ha! Hit a nerve, did I? Good. I think you are plain dead wrong. I will stand by that position and will continue to advocate for using a proper separate server and a proper endpoint - much like I used to have to berate you to use a proper preamp in a music system. Tools have their function, and if you need that function you should use the proper tool.
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 19, 2020 15:10:35 GMT -5
Yes, I do occasionally get irritated for being berated for no good reason. The majority of the time, though, I consider the source and conclude that it isn't worth getting bothered over. But since this IS the Roon thread... I'll say it again - I've used a Roon Core installed on a Windows 10 Laptop. I had absolutely zero issues with that installation (other than I just wasn't as familiar with Windows as I am with OS-X). The Roon Core was rapid to respond, never had dropouts, never lost data, and was reliable. I've used a Roon Core installed on SEVERAL Macs including a 17" MacBook Pro, a 15" MacBook Pro, and at least two Mac-Mini machines. The Roon Cores on these Machines performed just as well as with the Windows Core. And lately, I've used (and am currently using) Roon on their own Nucleus Plus with Roon OS. I find NO differences in hardware/software performance between this unit and my previous Windows/OS-X Cores. The major convenience (so far as I've noticed) between the Nucleus Plus and my other Roon Cores is the ability to run headless. NONE OF THE ABOVE ROON INSTALLATIONS displayed ANY differences in sound quality. None of them. (read the first sentence of this paragraph again DYohn - and since you're so hardheaded, read it yet a third time). So I think that YOU are "plain dead wrong" in your advocacy of a separate server. Also, a Roon endpoint is a Roon endpoint. There's no such thing as a "proper endpoint." Roon either recognizes the endpoint or it doesn't. If it does, then whatever "endpoint" you've chosen will work just as well as any other. If not, then it isn't an endpoint at all, is it? Discussion of preamps is academic in this thread (but I still disagree with you on that topic as well). Boom
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Post by jdmusante on Dec 19, 2020 15:14:15 GMT -5
Second, I contend that using a computer to do double duty as a music server and as a generic home PC means you are not getting the most out of the music server. If it works for you for now, fine, but a dedicated server will always be better in the long run, and will normally sound better from the start. I could not agree with this statement more. Having started my Roon experience 3 years ago using my MacMini, I was always fighting the Mac OS. I put up with it for about a year before I moved to a sonicTransporter i5 and have never looked back. My server now just works and I never have to think about it. I understand cost is an issue. The MacMini route works, its just one that you will fight rather than just enjoying your music.
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 19, 2020 15:25:06 GMT -5
Having started my Roon experience 3 years ago using my MacMini, I was always fighting the Mac OS... And there lies the issue - Not Roon - But your unfamiliarity with the OS. I can make OS-X jump through hoops in my sleep. This isn't any particular virtue - Others know Windows (or Linux, or Unix, or...) just as well. I'm glad you found a solution that works for you - but don't knock another's experience with a different platform just because you didn't like the underlying operating system. I'd contend that Roon can (and does) work just fine on ANY platform provided that the user doesn't have to fight the OS (as you obviously had to with OS-X). My Mac-Mini "just works," and I've had NO issues with it. Cordially - Boomzilla
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Post by klinemj on Dec 19, 2020 15:36:03 GMT -5
It's all about using a headless appliance (the NUC) versus a PC (or Mac, in your situation). The audio quality is the same (excellent), but I don't need to keep my PC on 24x7. I'm not understanding the difference between running an NUC 24x7 vs. running a PC 24x7. They are both computers, and many use Windows on their NUC's. So, it's one computer running 24x7 vs. another doing the same. What am I missing? FYI - I use a Dell PC as my Roon core and as it relates to Roon - I use it headless (no monitor) and every now and then I check to see if it needs to process and update (and I can do this headless also given I have W10 Pro on that PC and my Surface - so I can get to the Dell's desktop from my Surface). And, the PC is not used for anything else, except the rare Dirac run (I did one in 2015 and just did a new one with my new XMC-2). Mark
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Post by DYohn on Dec 19, 2020 15:38:33 GMT -5
Yes, I do occasionally get irritated for being berated for no good reason. The majority of the time, though, I consider the source and conclude that it isn't worth getting bothered over. But since this IS the Roon thread... I'll say it again - I've used a Roon Core installed on a Windows 10 Laptop. I had absolutely zero issues with that installation (other than I just wasn't as familiar with Windows as I am with OS-X). The Roon Core was rapid to respond, never had dropouts, never lost data, and was reliable. I've used a Roon Core installed on SEVERAL Macs including a 17" MacBook Pro, a 15" MacBook Pro, and at least two Mac-Mini machines. The Roon Cores on these Machines performed just as well as with the Windows Core. And lately, I've used (and am currently using) Roon on their own Nucleus Plus with Roon OS. I find NO differences in hardware/software performance between this unit and my previous Windows/OS-X Cores. The major convenience (so far as I've noticed) between the Nucleus Plus and my other Roon Cores is the ability to run headless. NONE OF THE ABOVE ROON INSTALLATIONS displayed ANY differences in sound quality. None of them. (read the first sentence of this paragraph again DYohn - and since you're so hardheaded, read it yet a third time). So I think that YOU are "plain dead wrong" in your advocacy of a separate server. Also, a Roon endpoint is a Roon endpoint. There's no such thing as a "proper endpoint." Roon either recognizes the endpoint or it doesn't. If it does, then whatever "endpoint" you've chosen will work just as well as any other. If not, then it isn't an endpoint at all, is it? Discussion of preamps is academic in this thread (but I still disagree with you on that topic as well). Boom You did all that in what, the last week? Come on. I've been a Roon user since it premiered the public beta. I stand by my statements.
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Post by audiobill on Dec 19, 2020 16:17:40 GMT -5
I can see not wanting to run Roon while running other programs at the same time, but don’t find a difference in SQ just because they are on the same computer. I know others think differently.
I also think my 2014 mac mini is a very cost effective solution.....and a familiar one in an all Apple ecosystem.
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Post by novisnick on Dec 19, 2020 17:09:44 GMT -5
I can see not wanting to run Roon while running other programs at the same time, but don’t find a difference in SQ just because they are on the same computer. I know others think differently. I also think my 2014 mac mini is a very cost effective solution.....and a familiar one in an all Apple ecosystem. I hot rodded my mini when I first got it, years ago! I’d have to look to see what year/model it is. I find it perfect for Roon! My USB cable is .5 meter and sits next to my streamer.
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Post by novisnick on Dec 19, 2020 17:14:10 GMT -5
Two things about using Roon users need to know...If you are using Roon on multiple devices, and suddenly a zone isn't showing... 1) If it's all zones, 1st thing to check is that the core is actually up and running. Obvious, but...it's easy to go down a rat hole into looking for other problems, so start with the easy one. My core is on a Dell PC, and if we have a power outage I need to power up the PC and when it gets to the Windows login screen - I need to log in. After that, the PC completes startup and Roon starts automatically and all is good. If it gets to the Windows login screen and I don't complete that step - Roon does not start and nothing plays anywhere. 2) If 1 zone isn't showing, Roon does need to see the zone...in my case, 1 zone includes an UltraRendu that feeds a DAC via USB. If the UltraRendu is on but the DAC is not - the zone won't show up. So, make sure everything you need to feed that zone is powered up. Mark ALL ACADEMIC for me - I use only one zone. Me as well but I have tried it in another zone just to see how well or bad it preformed. Worked perfectly once I figured out how to do it.
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Post by DYohn on Dec 19, 2020 17:31:04 GMT -5
It's all about using a headless appliance (the NUC) versus a PC (or Mac, in your situation). The audio quality is the same (excellent), but I don't need to keep my PC on 24x7. I'm not understanding the difference between running an NUC 24x7 vs. running a PC 24x7. They are both computers, and many use Windows on their NUC's. So, it's one computer running 24x7 vs. another doing the same. What am I missing? FYI - I use a Dell PC as my Roon core and as it relates to Roon - I use it headless (no monitor) and every now and then I check to see if it needs to process and update (and I can do this headless also given I have W10 Pro on that PC and my Surface - so I can get to the Dell's desktop from my Surface). And, the PC is not used for anything else, except the rare Dirac run (I did one in 2015 and just did a new one with my new XMC-2). Mark IMO "what you're missing" is power utilization, noise, heat, and stability. Something like a Nuc (or an NAS) running a dedicated OS and the server software does so mostly without fans and much more efficiently than a Mac or Windows PC. My server runs headless and needs no user intervention except when there is a Roon update, and that is done using a controller elsewhere on the network (with a click of a button.) Nuc is generally smaller and quieter and uses less energy than a full-blown PC. Set it up and forget it for the most part.
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Post by jdmusante on Dec 19, 2020 17:41:09 GMT -5
Having started my Roon experience 3 years ago using my MacMini, I was always fighting the Mac OS... And there lies the issue - Not Roon - But your unfamiliarity with the OS. I can make OS-X jump through hoops in my sleep. This isn't any particular virtue - Others know Windows (or Linux, or Unix, or...) just as well. I'm glad you found a solution that works for you - but don't knock another's experience with a different platform just because you didn't like the underlying operating system. I'd contend that Roon can (and does) work just fine on ANY platform provided that the user doesn't have to fight the OS (as you obviously had to with OS-X). My Mac-Mini "just works," and I've had NO issues with it. Cordially - Boomzilla You're right, I'm not a Mac power user. Just a user. Using the term 'fighting' was probably a bit strong. Both work and sound great, but having used a Mac mini and a headless, single purpose server, the single purpose server is a superior user experience. Continued luck with using Roon. It is the best music delivery product I've ever used. Jason
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Post by klinemj on Dec 19, 2020 19:17:53 GMT -5
I'm not understanding the difference between running an NUC 24x7 vs. running a PC 24x7. They are both computers, and many use Windows on their NUC's. So, it's one computer running 24x7 vs. another doing the same. What am I missing? FYI - I use a Dell PC as my Roon core and as it relates to Roon - I use it headless (no monitor) and every now and then I check to see if it needs to process and update (and I can do this headless also given I have W10 Pro on that PC and my Surface - so I can get to the Dell's desktop from my Surface). And, the PC is not used for anything else, except the rare Dirac run (I did one in 2015 and just did a new one with my new XMC-2). Mark IMO "what you're missing" is power utilization, noise, heat, and stability. Something like a Nuc (or an NAS) running a dedicated OS and the server software does so mostly without fans and much more efficiently than a Mac or Windows PC. My server runs headless and needs no user intervention except when there is a Roon update, and that is done using a controller elsewhere on the network (with a click of a button.) Nuc is generally smaller and quieter and uses less energy than a full-blown PC. Set it up and forget it for the most part. Gotcha - FYI, my Dell is fanless and is tiny (and it cost about $250). It's about the size of 2.5 NUC's. It runs really cool - doesn't do anything but be a Roon core, other than the very rare times I run Dirac. It doesn't have a dedicated OS (I think you use one based in Linux, right?), but these days Windows is pretty effortless. Once in a while, an update gets pushed, but they install easily and quickly. I do have the ability to have the Dell project to my TV, but I rarely do that. In fact, this past week in setting up my XMC-2 - I did that more than I have in years. I have the XMC-2 plugged into 1 of the TV's HDMI ports and the Dell into another. So, when running Dirac, I was able to easily switch back and forth between Dirac on the PC and the XMC-2 (which - once you enable Dirac is locked into that and can't do anything, so using the TV input is handy). Other than when running Dirac, the Dell just sits there and serves music around. Mark
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Post by DYohn on Dec 19, 2020 19:44:37 GMT -5
IMO "what you're missing" is power utilization, noise, heat, and stability. Something like a Nuc (or an NAS) running a dedicated OS and the server software does so mostly without fans and much more efficiently than a Mac or Windows PC. My server runs headless and needs no user intervention except when there is a Roon update, and that is done using a controller elsewhere on the network (with a click of a button.) Nuc is generally smaller and quieter and uses less energy than a full-blown PC. Set it up and forget it for the most part. Gotcha - FYI, my Dell is fanless and is tiny (and it cost about $250). It's about the size of 2.5 NUC's. It runs really cool - doesn't do anything but be a Roon core, other than the very rare times I run Dirac. It doesn't have a dedicated OS (I think you use one based in Linux, right?), but these days Windows is pretty effortless. Once in a while, an update gets pushed, but they install easily and quickly. I do have the ability to have the Dell project to my TV, but I rarely do that. In fact, this past week in setting up my XMC-2 - I did that more than I have in years. I have the XMC-2 plugged into 1 of the TV's HDMI ports and the Dell into another. So, when running Dirac, I was able to easily switch back and forth between Dirac on the PC and the XMC-2 (which - once you enable Dirac is locked into that and can't do anything, so using the TV input is handy). Other than when running Dirac, the Dell just sits there and serves music around. Mark Sounds like you are doing things a good way.
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Post by klinemj on Dec 19, 2020 19:53:08 GMT -5
Sounds like you are doing things a good way. I have enough computers in my house to do an Apollo moon mission with ease. I have 1 desktop for me, 1 for my wife, my Surface (which I use for anything that doesn't require good ergo posture - controlling Roon, surfing the web and reading, etc.), and when my kids are home - them have their laptops (1 high end engineering Windows machine for my Purdue son and one Apple for my biomed Ohio State daughter). And, that doesn't count our phones and my wife's tablet. So, a little spare by the AV stand is nothing... Mark
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