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Post by routlaw on Dec 30, 2020 16:38:37 GMT -5
Lately I've been channeling my inner OCD within digital audio and enjoying these endeavors with a few fits of frustration here and there.
I own the ERC-4 and think it performs very well, and even better outputting via its AES/EBU connections into my Holo Spring DAC. It has occurred to me however what the jitter rate might be for this player with the various outputs. I suspect Emotiva engineers might be the only people who have measured this and hoping they might be willing to share some knowledge regarding jitter rate for the ERC-4. I certainly don't have the equipment to measure it and not sure I would know how if I had it.
Thanks
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Post by audiobill on Dec 30, 2020 17:03:37 GMT -5
If you don’t know if you have it, place a covid mask over your ears so others don’t catch it!
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Post by vcautokid on Dec 30, 2020 23:57:40 GMT -5
Jitter is a very interesting thing. If no one ever told you the significance of the measurement, and never told you the measurement, would that have negatively affect your listening experience. Hmmmm. Not judging. Just asking.
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Post by routlaw on Dec 31, 2020 15:38:42 GMT -5
Jitter is a very interesting thing. If no one ever told you the significance of the measurement, and never told you the measurement, would that have negatively affect your listening experience. Hmmmm. Not judging. Just asking. Thanks, good question. I'll take a stab at an answer, which is not to be misconstrued for the gospel. My guess is for someone new to digital high fidelity audio that individual might not, probably not, know the significance of jitter. However as we wade through this over a period of years, decades our knowledge at least theoretically becomes cumulative. Having spent some time over the last few months going down the digital rabbit hole for a number of reasons I am convinced the one single major detriment to excellent digital audio is the gremlin of jitter. This is not to discount other things within digital circuits by any means but at this point I am fairly convinced jitter is the culprit of less than ideal digital audio. For now I'll keep it short and simple and leave it at that. |
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Post by garbulky on Dec 31, 2020 16:20:07 GMT -5
Jitter and me have a weird relationship. On one hand, the evidence shows that there is no way that jitter is audible on almost all modern systems. On the other hand, I have had lackluster experiences with USB. Granted this was some years ago and things may have changed. So I guess my thing has been omore of transports. I have not heard a difference between non-usb transports so I guess I am fortunate. Having said that I LOVE the XLR connection and there fore would use AES if I had the chance. As long as it's not a USB to AES adapter.
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Post by audiobill on Dec 31, 2020 16:41:13 GMT -5
@keithl will have some good information on this.
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DYohn
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Posts: 18,485
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Post by DYohn on Dec 31, 2020 16:52:09 GMT -5
Jitter is one of those terms so full of audiophoolery, fear, witchcraft and superstition that it's almost as scary as lack orf PRAT... yes jitter is real and yes it is important and yes in some cases it can cause audible issues, but what is MORE important is the clock stability of the digital receiving end. So if your DAC has a good stable clock (and especially if the receiver is magnetically decoupled from the source) then it is unlikely that any jitter that would be acceptable in any source to not call it a rejected design and retuirned to the engineers for help before the product hits the street will be moot to your listening enjoyment. Does it sound good? Then relax and enjoy the music.
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Post by routlaw on Dec 31, 2020 17:22:22 GMT -5
DYohn, Thanks and I'm not trying to be argumentative about this but correct me if Im wrong the clock you refer to is the device that mostly eliminates jitter, correct? Not all clocks, as I understand it, are created or implemented equally either.
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Post by audiobill on Dec 31, 2020 18:16:23 GMT -5
Most modern dacs reclock the incoming data, eliminating jitter that are, as I understand it, timing differences.
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Post by routlaw on Dec 31, 2020 18:20:51 GMT -5
Jitter and me have a weird relationship. On one hand, the evidence shows that there is no way that jitter is audible on almost all modern systems. On the other hand, I have had lackluster experiences with USB. Granted this was some years ago and things may have changed. So I guess my thing has been omore of transports. I have not heard a difference between non-usb transports so I guess I am fortunate. Having said that I LOVE the XLR connection and there fore would use AES if I had the chance. As long as it's not a USB to AES adapter. Understood. However the evidence I've been reading lately would contradict "there is no way that jitter is audible on almost all modern systems". Otherwise I agree my experience with USB has been less than ideal too at times, which is the main reason I started down this path to learn more. I emphatically agree, in theory, AES if a far more preferable connection method. However and this is where things can go awry. Since creating the thread on AES cables a couple of weeks ago I decided to try a couple different other AES cables at modest cost just to see what if any differences might occur. Both retailed for slightly over $100 with seasonal discounts, both cables had similar materials and construction technique, both claiming to be absolute 110 Ohm impedance cables. The audible differences between those two are nothing short of drastic at least in my system. Based upon what I've read recently a great many cables manufactured for certain applications such as digital transmission do not come anywhere near meeting their required specifications. Some coax cables might measure at well over 90 ohm impedance, while some AES cables might be well below their required 110 ohm impedance. The results are reflections on the transmission line and thus jitter going into a DAC. So this begs the question referring to DYohn's comment, why then would a well implemented clock not correct for these anomalies such as what I have experienced with the two new AES cables. One sounds fantastic, the other I can barely stand to have in the system it becomes so fatiguing to listen to. Effectively I'm just trying to have a better understanding of how things work in the digital domain. Hopefully this makes sense. |
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Post by routlaw on Dec 31, 2020 18:25:21 GMT -5
Most modern dacs reclock the incoming data, eliminating jitter that are, as I understand it, timing differences. Perhaps, but how well they re-clock the incoming data stream is up to debate from my experience. |
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Post by audiobill on Dec 31, 2020 18:28:33 GMT -5
Then just buy the good stuff and be done!
Antelope femto clocks, etc
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DYohn
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Posts: 18,485
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Post by DYohn on Dec 31, 2020 18:55:19 GMT -5
Most modern dacs reclock the incoming data, eliminating jitter that are, as I understand it, timing differences. Perhaps, but how well they re-clock the incoming data stream is up to debate from my experience. There's no debate, except among those who either don't understand or who are trying to sell you something. The receiver's clock is king. If it is good, then jitter is a non-factor. If it is not good, then it might (might) be an issue. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 1, 2021 0:23:53 GMT -5
Jitter was an issue 30 years ago, when it was barely understood. Once identified it was easy to eliminate, in any decent audio gear made in the last 20 years.
FWIW, I use an ERC-3 and it’s internal DAC then pass it’s balanced analogue output via XLR interconnects to an XSP-1.
Happy New Year to All
Gary
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