Multi-Sub Optimizer ( a FREE multi-sub optimizer program)

[KeithL]

Let's start a new thread for this....

A FREE Windows-based program for optimizing multiple subs...

With plenty of detailed information and plenty of options...

MSO (Multi-Sub Optimizer)

And here's the AVSForum article about it:
www.avsforum.com/threads/optimizing-subwoofers-and-integration-with-mains-multi-sub-optimizer.2103074

[housetech]

Perfect timing, we are now a two sub'woofer' family... and we're likin it.
I didn't believe 2 subs would improve the over-all LFE and sound so much better. I'm probably running a lower db level (total) with two, but it's just better, fuller. So let's hear how much better they can get after dialed in properly.

[megash0n]

Feb 24, 2021 21:06:45 GMT -5 housetech said:

Perfect timing, we are now a two sub'woofer' family... and we're likin it.
I didn't believe 2 subs would improve the over-all LFE and sound so much better. I'm probably running a lower db level (total) with two, but it's just better, fuller. So let's hear how much better they can get after dialed in properly.

I like to run several different quick calculations with MSO to get a feel for what it might do, then run a 15-30 minute one once I have it in a place I like it. I would try dropping an all pass filter in on one of the subs as well to see what it does with that. Depending on where I had my subs, an All pass was either good or not good. MiniDSP has a shorter article on their site that is way easier to follow than the MSO site in my opinion.

[ttocs]

So it's been a couple years that I have wanted to try MSO since megash0n suggested it to me back when this and the previous thread were introduced, but since it's a Win based app I wasn't able to use it until just recently when I invoked BootCamp on the Mac mini. So now I've been playing with this MSO thing and think it's pretty remarkable, but needs some limits placed on it otherwise it'll suck the life out of the bass. I got great "looking" results that just sound bad with no redeeming qualities. So I've since been trying various settings with the same measurements to see if things improve, which I'm still in the middle of accomplishing so it'll be a day or so before I have a better understanding about what's happening and how things sound.

With that said, the MSO FAQ has a wealth of info relating to what not to do and what to expect. I suggest to read it in its entirety. One point that popped out at me was about when using "co-located" subs including "stacking", which MSO considers to be a single sub location. So I interpret this to mean that I should do what I first did with MSO and only give it measurements for each location, which in my case is 3 locations for 6 subs. Last night I tried what was suggest to "not" do, which is to give MSO 6 separate measurements of the 6 subs even though there are only 3 locations. This was bad, but measured great, but sounded bad, so I won't do that again.

One thing that was bothering me was the massive loss of SPL output with a MSO filter set. So, in the FAQ it says to "not" use measurements taken at high SPL. I wasn't using "high" SPL, but was using the volume level that I would use for when I listen with a little bit of "gusto". So I used these measurements and tried various "Reference Level" settings, starting with the defacto 75dB, then 80dB and again 85dB. This is what I'm currently running through before I take new measurements of the three stacks at lower levels and run those at various amounts of reference levels for the resulting filters.

Also, the tutorial videos are quite long, but they really do need to be watched intently because from what I'm finding out - setup is crucial to getting good results.

[ttocs]

RESOURCES

This video is long, it's difficult to want to stay put and watch all the way through, but there simply is no way for a novice to get things setup the first time without all of the info contained throughout the video. In other words, skipping around guarantees that important info will be missed. Believe me, I found this out the hard way. There are other Jeff Mery tutorials I'll look for to add here.

[donh50]

Andy is also active on ASR and there is an MSO thread there with some useful tips, though the AVS thread Keith linked is the "father" of them. Andy's site also has lots of info.

[thompson12]

Jan 18, 2023 14:37:04 GMT -5 ttocs said:

RESOURCES

This video is long, it's difficult to want to stay put and watch all the way through, but there simply is no way for a novice to get things setup the first time without all of the info contained throughout the video. In other words, skipping around guarantees that important info will be missed. Believe me, I found this out the hard way. There are other Jeff Mery tutorials I'll look for to add here.

So I followed this video ran MSO did the optimize saved the filters but mini DSP wont/cant see/show them in the folder where I saved them. the REW measurements appear in the folder with the mini DSP but not the MSO Filters?? what am I doing wrong?



Mitch

[ttocs]

Jan 20, 2023 20:57:34 GMT -5 thompson12 said:

So I followed this video ran MSO did the optimize saved the filters but mini DSP wont/cant see/show them in the folder where I saved them. the REW measurements appear in the folder with the mini DSP but not the MSO Filters?? what am I doing wrong?

Mitch

You can use either of the Save Config/Channel To miniDSP Biquad Text File(s). I use the Config version because it'll let me choose multiple filters for all the subwoofer locations.

In this image I have the one I choose to use highlighted.


Also, I'm now using very long filenames which are very descriptive so there is simply no way I can confuse them with anything else. This MSO stuff gets complicated fast! It took me several tries to get things going. Then it took several tries to get things exported and imported so it wasn't messed up. 

Which choice did you use to Save the filters with?

edit: Something else I should mention, I'm using the Mac to import the filters to the miniDSP. I guess I could use the Windows OS, but I'm so used to using Mac for this. I'll see if I can try it in WinOS to see what you might be seeing.

[thompson12]

I tried saving like that as well but the filters don't show up. its like there not saving to a DSP format.
And I tried right clicking on each filter and savings individual.

Mitch

[ttocs]

Jan 20, 2023 22:05:16 GMT -5 thompson12 said:

I tried saving like that as well but the filters don't show up. its like there not saving to a DSP format.


Mitch

They should be simple .txt files.

Oh, I just thought of something because it happened to me. If you do NOT select a folder to save the filters into, then they will simply go to where the original REW text files came from.

Do a search for .txt and then change your VIEW in Windows Explorer (I don't know what it's called these days) to DETAILS and click on the Date Modified sort and you should see which ones are the newest no matter where they are.

[thompson12]

Jan 20, 2023 22:16:27 GMT -5 ttocs said:

Jan 20, 2023 22:05:16 GMT -5 thompson12 said:

I tried saving like that as well but the filters don't show up. its like there not saving to a DSP format.


Mitch

They should be simple .txt files.

Oh, I just thought of something because it happened to me. If you do NOT select a folder to save the filters into, then they will simply go to where the original REW text files came from.

Do a search for .txt and then change your VIEW in Windows Explorer (I don't know what it's called these days) to DETAILS and click on the Date Modified sort and you should see which ones are the newest no matter where they are.

Did what you suggested. Tried saving the way you did and the way the guy in the video likes to save them. I can close MSO and open it again and MSO sees the files in the folders I saved them in. I can reload the files in MSO with no problem. I can't see the MSO filters with windows, REW or miniDSP its like the don't exist accept with the MSO program. I'm using win10.


Mitch

[ttocs]

Did you search for .txt files?

Maybe you need to change the VIEW settings for file explorer.

I’m limited in helping today. At a concert with one of the bands, so all I’ve got is the cell phone.

[thompson12]

Jan 21, 2023 16:44:08 GMT -5 ttocs said:

Did you search for .txt files?

Maybe you need to change the VIEW settings for file explorer.

I’m limited in helping today. At a concert with one of the bands, so all I’ve got is the cell phone.

Yes did .txt search didn't find anything. Not sure what you mean  by changing the view settings . Enjoy your  concert.




Mitch

[ttocs]

Jan 21, 2023 16:50:37 GMT -5 thompson12 said:

Jan 21, 2023 16:44:08 GMT -5 ttocs said:

Did you search for .txt files?

Maybe you need to change the VIEW settings for file explorer.

I’m limited in helping today. At a concert with one of the bands, so all I’ve got is the cell phone.

Yes did .txt search didn't find anything. Not sure what you mean  by changing the view settings . Enjoy your  concert.




Mitch

Unfortunately it’s a working concert. So I’m here from way before to way after. I’m “the driver of the Winnebago” (Blues Brothers). So now I’ve got nothing to do for a few hours, but I have no laptop with me.

Hoping a fellow Win user can chime in about the VIEW SETTINGS. Windows default is to not show file name extensions, so you want to make them visible so you can more easily look for what you want to see.

[thompson12]

Thanks, I'll Google it and see what I can find


Mitch

[thompson12]

I found them not sure what I did I was just clicking tiring different things I read on Google and all the sudden they were there. Loaded in miniDSP no problem then I wanted to check them in REW but it won't load. I can see the files in REW but when I click on them it says there is nothing to open.


Mitch

[ttocs]

Jan 21, 2023 19:16:09 GMT -5 thompson12 said:

I found them not sure what I did I was just clicking tiring different things I read on Google and all the sudden they were there. Loaded in miniDSP no problem then I wanted to check them in REW but it won't load. I can see the files in REW but when I click on them it says there is nothing to open.

Mitch

REW won't work with the text files made by MSO.

After loading the filters into the miniDSP, you can then measure the frequency response in the normal fashion with REW. You can also "see" the PEQ correction curve within the PEQ section of the miniDSP if you want.

[ttocs]

Jan 21, 2023 19:16:09 GMT -5 thompson12 said:

I found them not sure what I did I was just clicking tiring different things I read on Google and all the sudden they were there. Loaded in miniDSP no problem then I wanted to check them in REW but it won't load. I can see the files in REW but when I click on them it says there is nothing to open.
Mitch

So was loading into the miniDSP successful? And were you able to measure the result with REW and did it match pretty well with the predicted as seen in MSO?

Mine usually are pretty close to what MSO predicts, and if it isn't, then that means I entered something incorrectly. REW's predictions are like 98% accurate, and MSO's predictions are about 80% accurate from what I've seen so far.

[ttocs]

Using MSO gives me some insight as to what happens when Dirac scavenges dB’s to use in its EQ’ing. When a MSO filter is created, just for subwoofers, the overall volume level of the subwoofer channel is reduced because MSO is using subtractive gain as an EQ element of one or more subs in a group. Usually, MSO will reduce the gain of two of the three subwoofer filters for my group of subs, leaving one at its nominal gain level of 0.0dB while the others could be as much as -12dB lower. More than one filter had me reduce the gain of two subs by -6dB. A filter created last week had a -12dB for one of the subs. So these EQ apps will use whatever we let them use. In the case of MSO, we can set the app so it can only use so much, and no more, but at the expense of smoothing the frequency response curve. So you can have a totally smooth response at a very low amount of final output level, or, you can say it’s ok to allow some “bumps” in the response curve and give the subwoofers a higher final gain level, albeit at a lower level than no EQ at all.

There is one danger in how MSO does all of this, and that is the fact that if one subwoofer is at -12dB, and another is at 0.0dB, then at full volume the sub with no reduction of output will be whopping away at full tilt and might even be damaged if the volume level is increased enough. So you’ve got to know what each sub’s capability is prior to applying a filter and what the processor volume setting is at that point! Let’s say that high volume level of the processor for a movie with a great soundtrack is -12dB, but after EQ the volume level of the subwoofer channel is -10dB and one of the subwoofers in the group had NO REDUCTION AT ALL, then that subwoofer will be operating at -2dB volume level!! Can your subwoofer be at that high of a volume level and be ok?

It’s a good idea to find the limits of each sub by using REW sweeps for each sub, noting the volume level setting of the processor. This limit is not difficult to find. If the sweeps are from 20-150Hz, then start with a pretty normal volume level, like -18dB for example, then raise the volume of the processor in 3dB steps until you notice a “sag” in the trace - most likely at the low end at 20Hz, the level will not be 3dB higher than the previous one. This is the limit at 20Hz. Keep in mind that with each additional sub in a group there will be sum gain involved, so when multiple subs are working together there might be +6dB or much more total gain. But the important thing here is to note what the actual Volume Control Level is because that is the limit of where the subwoofer becomes unhealthy. So if the volume control is at -5dB, then after EQ the subwoofer channel with all subs working has got to be strong enough - with some amount of headroom - that the subs can play with minimum distortion and a stress level that won’t shorten the life of any subwoofer.

[ttocs]

This is a good example of how much gain can be removed in an EQ. I set MSO to only correct from 45Hz up to 199Hz. You can easily see that at 45Hz the gain level is down at least -8dB. This is just to see how MSO would deal with a minimum of sub locations on the same wall, and, to see what happens when I limit the frequency range within the usable frequency range, which as you can see is not a good idea but it did expose a little about how things work.