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Post by megash0n on Feb 22, 2021 22:26:53 GMT -5
Someday you'll have to try the Monoprice amps as they are made by ATI for them. I’m set on amps so probably not for me. But others who own Emotiva amps, I think the Monoprice is a good alternative among other brands. are you suggesting they may be as good or better then the XPA lines? In your opinion of course. |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Feb 22, 2021 22:49:33 GMT -5
I’m set on amps so probably not for me. But others who own Emotiva amps, I think the Monoprice is a good alternative among other brands. are you suggesting they may be as good or better then the XPA lines? In your opinion of course. IMHO, I still favor toroidal transformers over the switching kind. But I have never heard the gen3 amps nor have I heard the Monoprice amps so I was just saying based on the price points, they would be good alternatives to each other. I looked at the DR amps too but the dealer I spoke with who surprising carried Emotiva - to be named anonymous - recommended the ATI. I just wanted to hear someone else’s opinion even though my mind was 100% made up. I figured fully balanced processor to fully balanced amps - what’s not to like? |
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Post by leonski on Feb 23, 2021 1:11:49 GMT -5
I've seen companies make rebranded 'stuff' many times.
I DO have one question, though. If you take an ATI amp, an OUTLAW and a MONOPRICE, took the badging off as well as most of the case, what would you see as far as similarities / differences?
Who does the design work? Does ATI design 'on spec' for the other guys? Even go so far as to simply rebrand an existing product? I've been around this hobby for a long time.....the FIRST generation of CD players
is a good example. My Magnevox? Rebranded Philips FD1000, a 14 bit player....Yep, pre 16 bot! And other players I saw were IDENTICAL. Same odd, tilt out fron mechanism and button order. But the prices were
Quite a bit apart.
I would HOPE that ATI worked to ONE standard of quality. Well trained workforce and proper equipment and all.
And Lsc you bring up a VERY good point. I put it as a matter of VALUE. You value something in your gear, be it presentation or slam or whatever....that ATI delivers. Not $$$ value but listening values. That's GOOD.
I see a lot of gear changers without clear goal or idea of what is, isn't or simply might be better....or worse. Lots of Churn going on here.
Me? I've been a fan of panel speakers for around 40 years. Bought MG-1 used THAT long ago. But I'm 'up' for a change. And what could be further in presentation and maybe dynamics from panels than KLIPSCH?
So to that end, within the next month or so? Ill be heading up to the Klipsh Heritage dealer for a listen to the Forte IV. I'll bring some music with which I'm familliar. Even some Pipe Organ with fundamentals to 16hz. (rare)
But I really am curious about image and dispersion. How wide an area provides a satisfying listen? Will they be good at LOW levels? (late nite conditions) Will they be OK within maybe a Foot of the front wall? (rear passive radiator)
And all the rest. Might even bring a very old CD with Eric Clapton. The Blues Breakers was among the first CDs and sounds like it was recorded in somebody's garage. A good test at 100db..... And some Paul Butterfield for Blues Harp.
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Post by Lsc on Feb 23, 2021 3:27:15 GMT -5
leonski, just an FYI, I don’t work for ATI. 😊 It’s interesting the different perspective people take on ATI. I don’t know a lot about how they oem and who designs the amp, if their customer designs it or they buy a design that ATI already has. But as far as the 4000/6000 is concerned, I heard it’s quite similar to the Mark Levinson 532h, 533h and 535h with larger transformers. Other than that, feel free to do additional research on your own. I know what the ATI Signature line are capable of since I own both the 4000 and 6000 series and as I have previously stated, these amps are as good as I’ll ever need. I have never heard any system powered by Outlaw or Monoprice. Outlaw has a 7 ch amp for $5000 that looks similar to the 6007 but I do not have any first hand knowledge. As far as Klipsch is concerned, I finally hooked up my old Klipsch Forte II from 1993 in my family room. They were my pride and joy for a long time and I still enjoy listening to them from time to time because the dynamics and the bass from these speakers are quite remarkable. Organs sound excellent on the Klipsches. I’m not sure how much you will like them as their accuracy is nowhere near electrostatic speakers but I guess you will find out for yourself during your journey. Some continue on this high end journey their entire lives and others like me are coming close to an end. My journey has led me to Revel speakers and ATI Signature amps and Emotiva XMC2. I wanted to give the DR2/DR3 a chance but it didn’t happen. For those that have the XPR amps, I’m so glad they have lasted this long and you all are enjoying all that power. I feel that was the golden era of Emotiva amps, never to be duplicated especially at those prices.
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Post by leonski on Feb 23, 2021 17:04:45 GMT -5
leonski , just an FYI, I don’t work for ATI. 😊 It’s interesting the different perspective people take on ATI. I don’t know a lot about how they oem and who designs the amp, if their customer designs it or they buy a design that ATI already has. But as far as the 4000/6000 is concerned, I heard it’s quite similar to the Mark Levinson 532h, 533h and 535h with larger transformers. Other than that, feel free to do additional research on your own. I know what the ATI Signature line are capable of since I own both the 4000 and 6000 series and as I have previously stated, these amps are as good as I’ll ever need. I have never heard any system powered by Outlaw or Monoprice. Outlaw has a 7 ch amp for $5000 that looks similar to the 6007 but I do not have any first hand knowledge. As far as Klipsch is concerned, I finally hooked up my old Klipsch Forte II from 1993 in my family room. They were my pride and joy for a long time and I still enjoy listening to them from time to time because the dynamics and the bass from these speakers are quite remarkable. Organs sound excellent on the Klipsches. I’m not sure how much you will like them as their accuracy is nowhere near electrostatic speakers but I guess you will find out for yourself during your journey. Some continue on this high end journey their entire lives and others like me are coming close to an end. My journey has led me to Revel speakers and ATI Signature amps and Emotiva XMC2. I wanted to give the DR2/DR3 a chance but it didn’t happen. For those that have the XPR amps, I’m so glad they have lasted this long and you all are enjoying all that power. I feel that was the golden era of Emotiva amps, never to be duplicated especially at those prices. SOME persons engage in 'upgrades' which IMO are not Really Upgrades, but rather 'side motion'. My last equipment change cycle was in about 2014 when I sold my PSAudio GCC 'integrated' and went with Parasound, A23 X2 and a P5 preamp with reasonably flexible bass management and a decent DAC section which is perfect for TV, which I think is only 32khz. The New Forte III was good but only lasted 3 or 4 years before going to the IV version which reviewers like. reviewer disclaimer? I don't know these guys or what they value. BUT can get at a set for a personal listen which may answer most quesitons. I'm waiting for the Mark V version which will be advertised as the 'Forty Five'......get it? A word on prices, if I may. People seem to get used to prices of stuff by the time they reach maybe 30 at the latest. I personally remember NEW cars off the showroom floor for <2000$ while the 1970 BMW 2002 was 3000$ new. So when I look at 'Inflation Adjusted' prices of stuff, I CAN get weak in the knees. Outlaw made an amp at one point that needed 2x 15 amp circuits. Wacky. I don't advertise where I worked, either. But I will say that I manufactured semiconductors and ICs while working in the engineering group. My favorite part of this was MEASURING things. And tracing such measurements to standards so you could compare over time. I kept track of some measureing equipment on a statistical basis. So when I read some things over in the DIRAC thread, i want to scream. I'd like to visit one of the people who are having trouble and check out technique and such..... Don't forget that OUTLAW also makes the RR2160 which is highly regarded AND those little M200 monoblocks which I considered once for about 5 minutes. PS? Magnepan are planar, sure, but not 'Stats. Very different principle using what amount to a bunch of Refrigerator Magnets and mylar. It gets interesting for the user when you can 'break into' the level which has the Ribbon Tweeter which is world class. |
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Post by leonski on Mar 15, 2021 20:27:50 GMT -5
FROM Lsc: "I have other goals for my disposable income like obtaining the C8 Corvette lol. So, I’m close to the end of this high end audio game. With my declining hearing, it doesn’t make sense to try to improve my system a lot more.  " I think you'll be glad you waited for the '21 A few new features and minimal price bump. I'd personally skip the Z51 option for the 'better' ride. And at <8lb per hp? You'll never be in the 'slow' lane! |
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Post by novisnick on Mar 17, 2021 13:44:06 GMT -5
If I only could get my hands ON a couple of xpr1's...... That would have settled it! |
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Post by leonski on Mar 17, 2021 14:19:59 GMT -5
Novisnick? Don't you think it could be speaker dependent? Some might sound better with one amp or the other.
Just for an example? Maybe one amp is better at really bad and highly reactive loads?
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Post by Lsc on Mar 17, 2021 19:41:47 GMT -5
Novisnick? Don't you think it could be speaker dependent? Some might sound better with one amp or the other. Just for an example? Maybe one amp is better at really bad and highly reactive loads? I don’t think it depends....I believe he is talking in absolutes here. The XPR1 is superior to the DR2. I firmly believe Emotiva went backwards with their gen3 amps performance wise. They may have achieved their objectives of building a lighter amp for lower shipping costs and a modular design for inventory advantages, but with a steep increase in price and arguably lower performance made me shop elsewhere. |
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Post by novisnick on Mar 17, 2021 21:47:17 GMT -5
Novisnick? Don't you think it could be speaker dependent? Some might sound better with one amp or the other. Just for an example? Maybe one amp is better at really bad and highly reactive loads? I don’t think it depends....I believe he is talking in absolutes here. The XPR1 is superior to the DR2. I firmly believe Emotiva went backwards with their gen3 amps performance wise. They may have achieved their objectives of building a lighter amp for lower shipping costs and a modular design for inventory advantages, but with a steep increase in price and arguably lower performance made me shop elsewhere. |
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Post by novisnick on Mar 17, 2021 21:51:13 GMT -5
Novisnick? Don't you think it could be speaker dependent? Some might sound better with one amp or the other. Just for an example? Maybe one amp is better at really bad and highly reactive loads? |
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Post by leonski on Mar 17, 2021 22:28:29 GMT -5
Oh Well! I tried to cut 'em some slack. But it would appear that many feel as Novisnick does.
Do you attribute the differences to the SMPS or the output section which now apparently runs a a much lower bias level?
A few audiophiles tend to avoid SMPS claiming the switching frequency causes audible problems elsewhere in the chain.
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Post by bonscott on Mar 19, 2021 16:07:23 GMT -5
I don’t think it depends....I believe he is talking in absolutes here. The XPR1 is superior to the DR2. I firmly believe Emotiva went backwards with their gen3 amps performance wise. They may have achieved their objectives of building a lighter amp for lower shipping costs and a modular design for inventory advantages, but with a steep increase in price and arguably lower performance made me shop elsewhere. So you are complaining about a steep increase in price in Emotiva of all brands LOL Funny how no one complains about the huge markups in high end amps and speakers 10-15,000 for a pair of Revel speakers yea no mark up on those how about a ATI or Mark Levinson amp for $6000 to 20,000 yea no mark up on that I get it its a hobby but dont fool yourself. |
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Post by leonski on Mar 19, 2021 21:02:17 GMT -5
First? Profit keeps a company in business. Nobody 'gives' anything away. Some high priced stuff is worth it to some persons. Not me, either, generally.
I DO wonder, however, how the 'list' price relates to actual cost of production. Some parts are VERY expensive, in limited runs or quantities or are 'selected' as high-spec from a normal production run.
Some proprietary stuff, made in short runs, can also be expensvies. Multi-layer circuit boards, for example, may be pretty expensive in the numbers needed. The ONLY manufacturer I know who had his own semiconductors made
was Nelson Pass who had a run of VFET devices made for his use.
Do NOT forget that htis is also a 'competitive' business. someone who prices their gear TOO high will lose sales as the value is not perceived to be worth it....And everyone sets their own value / cost equation and tries to get the
most 'bang for buck' without going broke...
If the DR2 IS widely considered to be sonically inferior to the XPR series before? Than we pretty much know why. That pesky switcher and the lower bias to the output section.
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