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Post by daddyora on Mar 4, 2021 16:29:42 GMT -5
I have old ears and damaged hearing (tinnitus) so HT dialog is my primary concern. I need all the advantages for clear dialog that I can get, ie setup, room treatments, and hardware selection. For hardware, certainly C1 and C2 center channels are well respected for their performance in this area. What I'd like are specific reasons why one of these speakers should be my "go to" solution for clear dialog in the area of dialog. And I'd like some objective reasons to buy Emotiva vs SVS, Elac, KEF, Klipsch, Ascend, etc center channels. I'm willing to spend more $ on my choice but I keep looping back to Emotiva.
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Post by tropicallutefisk on Mar 5, 2021 10:34:21 GMT -5
Just my opinion... I found dialogue was not necessarily speaker dependent, but rather how it was driven. With a good amp, I'm guessing most center channel speakers made by reputable manufacturers will be pretty clear.
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Post by ttocs on Mar 5, 2021 11:18:30 GMT -5
Late last year while experimenting with subwoofers I tried using a dedicated subwoofer for only the center speaker and it worked the best. The issue I have is the need to limit the low bass from my center speaker which has a 73Hz bottom end. I asked the manufacturer if ultra low bass should be avoided and they said yes, that the speaker was not meant to be used as a Large speaker in HT, that it needs a high pass to limit the bass it sees. So I shelved that idea until I worked on other things first.
So, staying with Emotiva, you could get a SE8 subwoofer that has user-configurable 60/80/100 Hz high-pass bass management crossover, and one of the center speakers of your choice, you'd have a very nice center channel setup. You'd feed the sub by setting up the Center Channel in the processor as Large, then the subwoofer sends the center speaker the signal above the high-pass filter setting you choose, 60/80/100Hz.
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Post by Percussionista on Mar 5, 2021 11:53:02 GMT -5
If the system already has a surround processor in it for the TV/movies, hence sources of dialog, then it would seem that ttocs idea of making the center channel a "small" speaker is already handled. The surround processor will already do the high-pass, sending low frequencies to the subwoofer.
I too am concerned about center channel audibility. A lot of TV shows in particular have too much ambient stuff going on in the front channels which tend to mask the center channel, but in that case I can do a temporary bump of the center channel signal to help out.
I'm actually temporarily doing a small amount of suppression in the vocal range at the moment because the room gives a certain tubbiness to the voices. I'm not ready to run Dirac yet, until I get the wall treatment up. Then we'll see. Speaking of which, if there's a lot of echo in your room, that could be also masking the clarity of the dialog. And, as I've found out the hard way, if you have an HT system and don't set up the distances correctly for the front speakers, that will also cause some echo/blurring when dialog appears in all three fronts.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Mar 5, 2021 12:47:41 GMT -5
One thing that often affects the clarity of dialog in the center front is the "first bounce".....
Dialog coming from the center speaker reaches your ears directly... But a "second copy" reaches your ears, after a significant delay, after bouncing off the side walls, AND THE FLOOR AND CEILING. You can reduce this by having some sort of sound absorber on the side walls (about halfway back between the plane of the speakers and of the listener). However you can also often get a huge improvement by putting a nice throw rug on the floor about halfway between the center speaker and the listening position. (Even a small 4 x 6 foot rug at the right spot can make a difference.)
This soaks up some of the sound that would otherwise reach you from that speaker after first bouncing off the floor in that spot.
And this reflected sound can often have a bad effect on the intelligibility of dialog. (The delay seems to be just about right to mess up the intelligibility of midrange frequencies like voice.)
(An absorber at the same spot on the ceiling would help too - but is somewhat more difficult to arrange...)
If the system already has a surround processor in it for the TV/movies, hence sources of dialog, then it would seem that ttocs idea of making the center channel a "small" speaker is already handled. The surround processor will already do the high-pass, sending low frequencies to the subwoofer. I too am concerned about center channel audibility. A lot of TV shows in particular have too much ambient stuff going on in the front channels which tend to mask the center channel, but in that case I can do a temporary bump of the center channel signal to help out. I'm actually temporarily doing a small amount of suppression in the vocal range at the moment because the room gives a certain tubbiness to the voices. I'm not ready to run Dirac yet, until I get the wall treatment up. Then we'll see. Speaking of which, if there's a lot of echo in your room, that could be also masking the clarity of the dialog. And, as I've found out the hard way, if you have an HT system and don't set up the distances correctly for the front speakers, that will also cause some echo/blurring when dialog appears in all three fronts. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Mar 5, 2021 12:49:48 GMT -5
Quite so....
That way you won't have a separate sub for the center channel speaker... But you WILL be able to set the crossover for it differently than for the other speakers... For example, set the fronts to large if you like, but set the center to small...
If the system already has a surround processor in it for the TV/movies, hence sources of dialog, then it would seem that ttocs idea of making the center channel a "small" speaker is already handled. The surround processor will already do the high-pass, sending low frequencies to the subwoofer. I too am concerned about center channel audibility. A lot of TV shows in particular have too much ambient stuff going on in the front channels which tend to mask the center channel, but in that case I can do a temporary bump of the center channel signal to help out. I'm actually temporarily doing a small amount of suppression in the vocal range at the moment because the room gives a certain tubbiness to the voices. I'm not ready to run Dirac yet, until I get the wall treatment up. Then we'll see. Speaking of which, if there's a lot of echo in your room, that could be also masking the clarity of the dialog. And, as I've found out the hard way, if you have an HT system and don't set up the distances correctly for the front speakers, that will also cause some echo/blurring when dialog appears in all three fronts. |
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Post by ttocs on Mar 5, 2021 16:37:35 GMT -5
If the system already has a surround processor in it for the TV/movies, hence sources of dialog, then it would seem that ttocs idea of making the center channel a "small" speaker is already handled. The surround processor will already do the high-pass, sending low frequencies to the subwoofer. Yes, but . . . . The Center channel with a dedicated subwoofer sounds better than any other setup I've tried. It's a fairly stark difference in clarity. |
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Post by ottaone on Mar 6, 2021 1:48:29 GMT -5
And point the centre speaker as direct as possible to your listening height. A few months ago, I removed the speaker base which pointed the speaker maybe at least a foot above my head.
Now, I don’t have to turn up the volume to understand the dialogue. I do turn up the volume to enjoy the sound effects!
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Post by Percussionista on Mar 6, 2021 11:38:42 GMT -5
If the system already has a surround processor in it for the TV/movies, hence sources of dialog, then it would seem that ttocs idea of making the center channel a "small" speaker is already handled. The surround processor will already do the high-pass, sending low frequencies to the subwoofer. Yes, but . . . . The Center channel with a dedicated subwoofer sounds better than any other setup I've tried. It's a fairly stark difference in clarity. Interesting... so in this scenario, even if the we're talking about a full HT system, you would still treat the SW/C combo as if one speaker, as you have described, by sending the C signal to the C-dedicated SW, and have the SW use it's high-pass filter to supply the C with the rest. I might give that a try with my not-really-being-used Airmotiv S12 under the C2+.... hmmm... I guess one would have to do some fiddling to adjust the C-SW output for balance, before running Dirac over the whole system. |
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Post by Percussionista on Mar 6, 2021 11:49:30 GMT -5
... I might give that a try with my not-really-being-used Airmotiv S12 under the C2+....Oops... well that won't work as the S12 doesn't have any outputs, only inputs. Oh well, interesting idea... |
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Post by ttocs on Mar 6, 2021 11:59:48 GMT -5
Yes, but . . . . The Center channel with a dedicated subwoofer sounds better than any other setup I've tried. It's a fairly stark difference in clarity. Interesting... so in this scenario, even if the we're talking about a full HT system, you would still treat the SW/C combo as if one speaker, as you have described, by sending the C signal to the C-dedicated SW, and have the SW use it's high-pass filter to supply the C with the rest. I might give that a try with my not-really-being-used Airmotiv S12 under the C2+.... hmmm... I guess one would have to do some fiddling to adjust the C-SW output for balance, before running Dirac over the whole system. You are correct. The scenario would make the speaker/sub to be seen as just a full range speaker. |
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Post by SteveH on Mar 13, 2021 17:02:35 GMT -5
I have old ears and damaged hearing (tinnitus) so HT dialog is my primary concern. I need all the advantages for clear dialog that I can get, ie setup, room treatments, and hardware selection. For hardware, certainly C1 and C2 center channels are well respected for their performance in this area. What I'd like are specific reasons why one of these speakers should be my "go to" solution for clear dialog in the area of dialog. And I'd like some objective reasons to buy Emotiva vs SVS, Elac, KEF, Klipsch, Ascend, etc center channels. I'm willing to spend more $ on my choice but I keep looping back to Emotiva. I noticed a drastic improvement when I upgraded my 1986 center channel to a Definitive Technology ProCenter 2000 www.definitivetechnology.com/products/procenter-2000 |
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