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Post by Ex_Vintage on Mar 31, 2021 16:56:49 GMT -5
What say you. What are your experiences or thoughts on if speakers need to be isolated or decoupled from the floor? The are many manufacturers of isolation pads, feet, plinths and outriggers that claim improved bass response, imaging and soundstage. What are your experiences or thoughts?
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Mar 31, 2021 17:40:54 GMT -5
With my previous speakers that had passive woofers I carefully found the right locations for them and spiked them into the wood floor and kept them that way for the extra bass that came along for the ride.
My current speakers only have spikes but I'm using spike cups because they are better without the floor vibration induced increase in bass effect. I've always wanted to try Isoacoustics GAIA II feet. I've heard their demonstration at AXPONA and like what I heard.
Your question brings to the forefront thoughts I've had for several years about doing something about my 65 year old wood floor. I've got a couple floor jacks I could try out to see if making the floor more rigid has a positive or negative effect. Maybe I'll try that tomorrow.
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Post by Gary Cook on Mar 31, 2021 17:58:12 GMT -5
My sub woofer is spiked to the wooden floor through the carpet and insulation, other speakers are not. As we have always had carpeted floors I have tried spikes many times over the decades and the only difference I have noticed is with the sub woofer, it physically moves (rocks) when placed on carpet.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by Ex_Vintage on Mar 31, 2021 21:26:05 GMT -5
With my previous speakers that had passive woofers I carefully found the right locations for them and spiked them into the wood floor and kept them that way for the extra bass that came along for the ride. My current speakers only have spikes but I'm using spike cups because they are better without the floor vibration induced increase in bass effect. I've always wanted to try Isoacoustics GAIA II feet. I've heard their demonstration at AXPONA and like what I heard. Your question brings to the forefront thoughts I've had for several years about doing something about my 65 year old wood floor. I've got a couple floor jacks I could try out to see if making the floor more rigid has a positive or negative effect. Maybe I'll try that tomorrow. That is exactly the focus of my concern. I have hickory flooring that moves adequately from winter to summer due to humidity change. It has its obligatory squeaks in it when you walk on it, and I was wondering if the level of coupling that I have (I have non cushioned feet on my speaker outriggers) was having a poor effect on my system sound. I suppose I could try some isolation material before committing to a more elegant purchase. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2021 23:28:01 GMT -5
These are cups/sliders under spikes I use on my hardwood floors. My Tekton Ulfberhts weigh in 225 pounds each and these make them a breeze to move. Again, since day 1 I've used them and spike/cups under my 4-10 subwoofers so I haven't contrasted w/ and w/out. When we had an earthquake of 6 point something a year or so ago they got a workout!   |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Apr 1, 2021 9:22:49 GMT -5
I would say if you have a raised floor itβs more of an issue than if you have a slab floor. I have the former and with my previous subwoofers got a nice improvement when I added Auralex Sub Dudes to decouple them from the floor; it reduced the tendency of the floor wanting to βplay alongβ with the bass line. I donβt currently use them with my SVS subs as their feet are pretty good, but Iβm considering their add on feet to reduce resonance. I have not tried anything with my B&Wβs or the Maggies.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2021 9:55:46 GMT -5
With my previous speakers that had passive woofers I carefully found the right locations for them and spiked them into the wood floor and kept them that way for the extra bass that came along for the ride. My current speakers only have spikes but I'm using spike cups because they are better without the floor vibration induced increase in bass effect. I've always wanted to try Isoacoustics GAIA II feet. I've heard their demonstration at AXPONA and like what I heard. Your question brings to the forefront thoughts I've had for several years about doing something about my 65 year old wood floor. I've got a couple floor jacks I could try out to see if making the floor more rigid has a positive or negative effect. Maybe I'll try that tomorrow. That is exactly the focus of my concern. I have hickory flooring that moves adequately from winter to summer due to humidity change. It has its obligatory squeaks in it when you walk on it, and I was wondering if the level of coupling that I have (I have non cushioned feet on my speaker outriggers) was having a poor effect on my system sound. I suppose I could try some isolation material before committing to a more elegant purchase. My house is rather new and one of the things that people have commented on is how stiff the flooring is. I mean there's no squeaking or movement whatsoever when walking or even moving heavy objects such as speakers - probably the heaviest objects in the house. The thing is when they were building the "beams" from various material as seen in the picture I thought these couldn't be as strong as solid wood beams. But that's not the case.... I've seen roof beams made the same way and measurements taken after the beams were put in place in contrast to solid beams which were being replaced and there was less sag w/ this sort of design. Here's some pictures if you or anyone is looking for some ideas if trying to reinforce flooring:  The flooring I'm sure isn't as nice as real Hickory etc but made of a new synthetic laminate which doesn't offer any support. The synthetic material is roughly only quarter inch thick and basically fits together like Pergo. I've noted newer flooring real wood being installed in some houses and one of the things that must be done is to let the flooring set in the house for near a month so the humidity equalizes in the flooring materials before installation. Otherwise, there's too much of gaps or not enough during humidity changes. I'm not a flooring guy though...  |
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Post by Ex_Vintage on Apr 1, 2021 12:07:11 GMT -5
Deleted - My house is 20 years old and has conventional doug fir floor joists. The hickory is 3/4" on top of 3/4" subfloor plywood. The floor is solid, but in Wisconsin, you get adequate humidity swings through the seasons, which effects the hickory. The Herbies gliders you have are well regarded, and it appears as though they impact the sub 200Hz area more than anything. Certainly depends on the weight / mass of the speakers (And Ulf's have that!)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2021 13:16:37 GMT -5
Deleted - My house is 20 years old and has conventional doug fir floor joists. The hickory is 3/4" on top of 3/4" subfloor plywood. The floor is solid, but in Wisconsin, you get adequate humidity swings through the seasons, which effects the hickory. The Herbies gliders you have are well regarded, and it appears as though they impact the sub 200Hz area more than anything. Certainly depends on the weight / mass of the speakers (And Ulf's have that!) Thanks for chiming in! Seeing the price of other isolation / decouplers I was wondering if I should upgrade... Though I try not to bite into keeping up with the Joneses I couldn't help but wonder regarding the price difference. Never been to Wisconsin so I am rather ignorant about the weather. Betcha your hickory flooring is beautiful Ex_Vintage! |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Apr 1, 2021 13:17:34 GMT -5
My house is rather new and one of the things that people have commented on is how stiff the flooring is. I mean there's no squeaking or movement whatsoever when walking or even moving heavy objects such as speakers - probably the heaviest objects in the house. The thing is when they were building the "beams" from various material as seen in the picture I thought these couldn't be as strong as solid wood beams. But that's not the case.... I've seen roof beams made the same way and measurements taken after the beams were put in place in contrast to solid beams which were being replaced and there was less sag w/ this sort of design. Here's some pictures if you or anyone is looking for some ideas if trying to reinforce flooring: I have always liked I-Joists. They are reasonably priced, and easy to work with. You can get a really stiff floor with them, really stiff, and because they are lightweight and made with OSB I would suspect that they don't resonate much. However, due to fire code for that type of assembly we are required to use two layers of 1/2" X code drywall minimum under them due to the fact that the glue melts before they catch fire. Instead, we use a lot of engineered trusses which, while still a multi-piece construction, have no glue but instead use metal mending plates and have a host of other advantages for running mechanicals. The huge downsides are the engineering/approval, extra paperwork for the cities and villages, and lead time. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2021 13:19:55 GMT -5
My house is rather new and one of the things that people have commented on is how stiff the flooring is. I mean there's no squeaking or movement whatsoever when walking or even moving heavy objects such as speakers - probably the heaviest objects in the house. The thing is when they were building the "beams" from various material as seen in the picture I thought these couldn't be as strong as solid wood beams. But that's not the case.... I've seen roof beams made the same way and measurements taken after the beams were put in place in contrast to solid beams which were being replaced and there was less sag w/ this sort of design. Here's some pictures if you or anyone is looking for some ideas if trying to reinforce flooring: I have always liked I-Joists. They are reasonably priced, and easy to work with. You can get a really stiff floor with them, really stiff, and because they are lightweight and made with OSB I would suspect that they don't resonate much. However, due to fire code for that type of assembly we are required to use two layers of 1/2" X code drywall minimum under them due to the fact that the glue melts before they catch fire. Instead, we use a lot of engineered trusses which, while still a multi-piece construction, have no glue but instead use metal mending plates and have a host of other advantages for running mechanicals. The huge downsides are the engineering/approval, extra paperwork for the cities and villages, and lead time. Mind if I ask where you live - state wise? I don't know much about framing etc not even knowing the name of the I-Joists before you referred to them as so. Thanks bro for informing me! |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Apr 1, 2021 13:47:37 GMT -5
I have always liked I-Joists. They are reasonably priced, and easy to work with. You can get a really stiff floor with them, really stiff, and because they are lightweight and made with OSB I would suspect that they don't resonate much. However, due to fire code for that type of assembly we are required to use two layers of 1/2" X code drywall minimum under them due to the fact that the glue melts before they catch fire. Instead, we use a lot of engineered trusses which, while still a multi-piece construction, have no glue but instead use metal mending plates and have a host of other advantages for running mechanicals. The huge downsides are the engineering/approval, extra paperwork for the cities and villages, and lead time. Mind if I ask where you live - state wise? I don't know much about framing etc not even knowing the name of the I-Joists before you referred to them as so. Thanks bro for informing me! Illinois, just north of Chicago. Cook County has some of the strictest codes in the Country, all related to the Great Chicago Fire. So all the neighboring Counties glom on to most of that code. That fire code why all our electric wiring is in metal conduit, outlets are horizontal instead of vertical, some towns require sprinklers, etc. |
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Post by Ex_Vintage on Apr 1, 2021 15:22:01 GMT -5
Deleted - My house is 20 years old and has conventional doug fir floor joists. The hickory is 3/4" on top of 3/4" subfloor plywood. The floor is solid, but in Wisconsin, you get adequate humidity swings through the seasons, which effects the hickory. The Herbies gliders you have are well regarded, and it appears as though they impact the sub 200Hz area more than anything. Certainly depends on the weight / mass of the speakers (And Ulf's have that!) Thanks for chiming in! Seeing the price of other isolation / decouplers I was wondering if I should upgrade... Though I try not to bite into keeping up with the Joneses I couldn't help but wonder regarding the price difference. Never been to Wisconsin so I am rather ignorant about the weather. Betcha your hickory flooring is beautiful Ex_Vintage! Careful, you might join me in this rat hole! Attachment DeletedThis is the hickory just after a refinishing job a few years ago. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Apr 1, 2021 15:27:56 GMT -5
Careful, you might join me in this rat hole! This is the hickory just after a refinishing job a few years ago. That's a lot of beautiful baseball bats there!! I have always loved Hickory! |
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Post by 405x5 on Apr 2, 2021 10:39:04 GMT -5
What say you. What are your experiences or thoughts on if speakers need to be isolated or decoupled from the floor? The are many manufacturers of isolation pads, feet, plinths and outriggers that claim improved bass response, imaging and soundstage. What are your experiences or thoughts? There are plenty of common sense reasons for getting speakers a tad off from the floor (an inch or so). Either to make a behemoth easier to move, or something to do with the floor type itself. Beyond that, those terms you refer to are nothing more than a snake oil trip into outer space. There are however, the design parameters of the speaker manufacturer IF the room and its floor/ wall boundaries were taken into consideration regarding driver placement within the cabinet itself. Bill |
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Post by DYohn on Apr 2, 2021 11:51:33 GMT -5
The answer is "it depends." Every installation is different and there are no universally true answers. Try it with isolation and with coupling to your floor, keep whatever you like best.
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Post by leonski on Jul 5, 2021 19:11:21 GMT -5
The answer is "it depends." Every installation is different and there are no universally true answers. Try it with isolation and with coupling to your floor, keep whatever you like best. That's TOO EASY an answer. A resort to priniciple of construcion may yield a solution. I would generally couple a speaker to a floor on slab. For on joists? Do what Deleted did and make the stiffest construciton you can possilbly make And REINFORCE where the speakers are supposed to go. Extra layers and 'blocking' between joists. A speaker that 'floats' will resonate more freely, and not always to your 'advantage. The trick might be to LOWER the resoant frequency to below the audible range, with high damping to prevent harmonics from THAN becoming the problem.... At work? I had a machine weighing at least 12,000lb. 2 large Stainless Steel tubes 100mm or more thick. Doors on each end like off a Naval Rifle....(big and thick) and it was a double stacker. The installation was on a 2nd floor facility, not ground floor! It was on a raised floor which had a special pour as a pad between steel beams. Entire building was built to a high seismic standard due to dangerous chemicals. I was told by the site engineer that people would walk out of the building after anything short of a 7.0 |
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Post by DYohn on Jul 5, 2021 19:34:07 GMT -5
So in other words, it depends.  |
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Post by leonski on Jul 5, 2021 22:40:55 GMT -5
NO, you must rely on principles of contruction if starting with a clean sheet.
you will never put a speaker on a slab of rubber....over a floor / slab
A raised floor presents other problems, but a couple things to keep in mind would be rigidiity and mass......
finding solutions from people who have already solved this and reducing such solutions to principles......No dart throwing allowed.....
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 6, 2021 5:27:41 GMT -5
I have an uneven concrete slab floor with vinyl plank glued directly to the slab. The house had carpet originally, and apparently the builder thought that since a carpet pad was being used, there was no need to really level the concrete. My wife proved sensitive to the dust & mold in the carpet, so I replaced it. This helped the wife; the acoustics, not so much...
"Spike cups" do NOT work for me because of the unevenness of the floor. When I move a speaker (which I do frequently), the cups come out from under the spikes and then the spikes scratch the vinyl planks. I keep screw-in plastic feet in multiple threads and diameters so that the first thing I do when I get a speaker for test is to remove the stock spikes and replace them with the (nylon? Teflon?) feet. That way, I can move the speakers to find the ideal place for them. I then have a bubble level that I use to level each speaker once I've found its best location. The leveling process is tedious, but necessary. Without leveling, the speakers tend to point slightly downward. I normally have to add about ΒΌ" of lift to the front feet to get the fore/aft axis level. Then I have to work with side to side leveling to ensure that the speaker isn't resting on three feet or rocking. It's a pain, but I think I can hear the difference.
If I had it to do over again, I'd use carpet in the listening room only & leave the rest of the house with hard floors. But since I'm moving within two years, it isn't worth changing this house back to carpet in the listening room. However, if I find a cheap, thick 12 x 15 foot rug...
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