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Post by leonski on Apr 30, 2021 14:01:57 GMT -5
Keep in mind that it SEEMS that California has a different 'profile' than most other places. Nobody has been in one place for decades except a few Fossils like ME. Everybody else is 'on the move' and few have time for 'vintage' or 'collectible' electronics. I knew ONE guy down in La jolla who had
a bumch of Mc gear and a colletcion of stereophile going back 20 years or more. The Exception, to be sure.
When I was working for the county of SD, a few years back, I was on a committee....shall I say? They found out I was semi-technical and I got to repair some of our microphones.
Want to take a shot at a Zenith Trans Oceanic? I have one from the 50s which makes it among th last of the Tube Type......
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gordyg
Seeker Of Truth
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Post by gordyg on Apr 30, 2021 16:34:20 GMT -5
My priorities are simpler - How does it sound? The closer the answer is to "amazing," the higher the goody-factor. Everything else is far lower on the priority scale. For some types of music, the tube integrated really sounds superior with sweetness and slam. For other types, the solid-state integrated takes the cake with detail and precision. And when I say "types of music," it isn't so clearly cut as "tubes for classical, solid-state for rock." It depends on the recording. That's why I'm so pleased with my current system - I can switch back & forth to see what sounds better. Am I picky? Yes. Am I overly concerned about getting the best from each of my recordings - probably, but I also consider it fun, not work. I enjoy all the tweaking and consider it a better hobby (for me) than hunting, fishing, cars, motorcycles, guns, or any of the other things that many concern themselves with. I like those things too, but audio is my muse. Could I assign values to the different things you suggest - cost, power, distortion, looks, reliability, warranty, features, and hardware? Sure, but for me it would be academic and irrelevant to my primary concern. The fun of it is that I occasionally find something at a yard sale that should be worth less than the $10 I paid for it, yet it turns out to sound AMAZING! Such finds have included: A pair of B&W speakers I picked out of a trash pile A pair of KEF speakers from a yard sale A McIntosh MC240 tube power amp I picked up out of a trash pile A Luxman solid state receiver that sounded amazing A Luxman tube preamp from an estate sale A pair of Klipsch Heresy speakers for $5 A pair of Klipsch Cornwall speakers for $100 A pair of Heathkit mono integrated tube amps that I modified A McIntosh MC352 power amp I bought from a local priest etc. I like the thrill of the hunt. Boom My god! I need to move to a larger town. The people I live around only have old clothes at these yard sales. You’ve picked up some great stuff. I have been looking on Craigslist recently but most of it is people “over charging” and I could get the new version for almost same money. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 30, 2021 17:26:16 GMT -5
I have a theory on finding things at odd places -
If the town is too small, your odds are slim because there isn't enough population to provide a variety of audio gear.
If the town is too large, your odds are slim because there's a sufficient population to create demand for desirable audio gear.
But if you live in a medium-sized town, (224,499 as of 2019 in Baton Rouge), there are both a sufficient population to have valuable "audio castaways," but not enough population that everything gets gobbled up instantly.
Demographics also count. If you're in a "young" town like Austin, TX, for example, there will be more young people wanting audio gear. However, if you're essentially in a retirement town, St. Petersburg, FL, for example, then there is a relatively affluent population who are constantly downsizing, and audio gear is one of the things that many want to dispose of.
Now that said, in St. Petersburg, I'd expect you to find a used market full of 1970's gems (Carver, Phase-Linear, Klipschorns, Dynaco, McIntosh, Harmon-Kardon, etc.). I doubt that you'd find much cutting edge audio stuff in that market (but I could be wrong - many older folks DO have a lot of disposable income).
You also occasionally find the "I just want to get rid of it" seller. As an example, I went to one yard sale & saw a pair of Klipsch La Scalas in the back of the garage. I asked the guy if he wanted to sell them and he replied "NO! I couldn't sell those - I've had them since college!' All the time his wife was behind him signaling me with a "call me" hand signal. It was all I could do to resist bursting out laughing. I spoke with her later and she admitted that she just wanted the things GONE! I'm assuming someone else benefitted from that situation, because I didn't want to get in the middle of that dispute...
And maybe I'm just lucky.
Boom
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gordyg
Seeker Of Truth
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Post by gordyg on May 1, 2021 15:38:07 GMT -5
I've owned both BasX equipment and the X-series. Do the latter sound audibly better? Yes, in most systems. Is the difference worth the extra cost? Maybe - but there are factors that come into consideration: 1. Are you playing your system at higher volumes? Yes - maybe go with the big boys. 2. Are you hoping to keep the system for decades? Yes - maybe the X series will be more reliable (but this is pure speculation on my part). 3. How picky are you about the sound? Although you'll hear a probable improvement with the X series, the actual difference is only in the range of 10% (if that). 4. Which way did I go with my own system? My X series gear is gone. The BasX receiver is still in my system. Now these opinions are worth every penny you're paying for them. Only YOUR ears can make the final decision. Emotiva makes this easy with their return policies. Buy the new amps and try them out. Not worth it to you? Send them back. The shipping cost is trivial compared to having gear you don't like. But I'd guess (not having any access to Emotiva's data) that the majority of those who order the X-series amps end up keeping them. And you'd also have the satisfaction of knowing that you have the "best," and need not wonder about whether your current electronics are holding your speakers back. That all said, I'm obligated to throw the proverbial monkey wrench in the works... Have you heard tubes? Many swear on a stack of bibles that they prefer the sound of tubes with their Klipsch speakers to the sound of solid-state. Just asking... I wanted to say thank you for the recommendation again! I finally got my hands on an integrated tube amplifier. Now keep in mind it is a low price item and not very high quality as far as “hifi” goes. But my GOD it sounds good with my speakers. The cool part is the bass sounds great now and the highs are more mellow if that makes any sense. I know it’s not super high quality but it’s a big improvement so I’m happy. The crazy part is I’m only using rca cables and it sounds better than when I was using optical with the previous integrated I was using. The problem is I can’t afford to get a really nice tube set up yet but one day I will and it’s all because I got on this forum. Thank you |
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Post by Boomzilla on May 1, 2021 17:39:24 GMT -5
Glad you liked the sound - but why assume that more $$$ automatically means better sound? If the cheap amp sounds good to you, just use it and be happy!
I review $10,000 a pair speakers, but you know what I have in my living room? A $400 pair of speakers. The make & model don’t matter. But I finally have enough confidence in my own ears to appreciate what sounds good to me in my room. What makes the cheap speakers so desirable to me? They’re very dynamic at low volumes and they work really well in my space.
If I wanted higher volumes, I might need something else, but for now, these are great!
So don’t be automatically swayed thinking that more money always buys better sound. If what you’ve got sounds good to you, then that’s ALL that matters. Really!
Boomzilla
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Post by dsonyay on May 7, 2021 9:32:54 GMT -5
My priorities are simpler - How does it sound? The closer the answer is to "amazing," the higher the goody-factor. Everything else is far lower on the priority scale. For some types of music, the tube integrated really sounds superior with sweetness and slam. For other types, the solid-state integrated takes the cake with detail and precision. And when I say "types of music," it isn't so clearly cut as "tubes for classical, solid-state for rock." It depends on the recording. That's why I'm so pleased with my current system - I can switch back & forth to see what sounds better. Am I picky? Yes. Am I overly concerned about getting the best from each of my recordings - probably, but I also consider it fun, not work. I enjoy all the tweaking and consider it a better hobby (for me) than hunting, fishing, cars, motorcycles, guns, or any of the other things that many concern themselves with. I like those things too, but audio is my muse. Could I assign values to the different things you suggest - cost, power, distortion, looks, reliability, warranty, features, and hardware? Sure, but for me it would be academic and irrelevant to my primary concern. The fun of it is that I occasionally find something at a yard sale that should be worth less than the $10 I paid for it, yet it turns out to sound AMAZING! Such finds have included: A pair of B&W speakers I picked out of a trash pile A pair of KEF speakers from a yard sale A McIntosh MC240 tube power amp I picked up out of a trash pile A Luxman solid state receiver that sounded amazing A Luxman tube preamp from an estate sale A pair of Klipsch Heresy speakers for $5 A pair of Klipsch Cornwall speakers for $100 A pair of Heathkit mono integrated tube amps that I modified A McIntosh MC352 power amp I bought from a local priest etc. I like the thrill of the hunt. Boom Holy Canolli... Cornwalls for 10 bucks. Dang. I’m assuming they were in need of restoration or was this a miraculous find where they worked like new? |
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Post by Boomzilla on May 7, 2021 10:14:20 GMT -5
Holy Canolli... Cornwalls for 10 bucks. Dang. I’m assuming they were in need of restoration or was this a miraculous find where they worked like new? No- the Cornwalls were $100. They DID work like new, although the walnut finish needed some TLC. I had a friend who had aspired his whole life to have some big Klipsch speakers, but had never been able to afford them (he’s an impoverished professor at the local university). I sold the Cornwalls to him for the same $100 I’d paid for them after I refinished the cabinets & checked the drivers. He’s in seventh Heaven! |
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Post by dsonyay on May 8, 2021 10:28:28 GMT -5
Holy Canolli... Cornwalls for 10 bucks. Dang. I’m assuming they were in need of restoration or was this a miraculous find where they worked like new? No- the Cornwalls were $100. They DID work like new, although the walnut finish needed some TLC. I had a friend who had aspired his whole life to have some big Klipsch speakers, but had never been able to afford them (he’s an impoverished professor at the local university). I sold the Cornwalls to him for the same $100 I’d paid for them after I refinished the cabinets & checked the drivers. He’s in seventh Heaven! 100 bucks.. Man that’s still in incredible find. I’d love to find a pair of Cornwalls at a garage sale like that. Every now and then Ill stop at a garage sale.. you just never know when someone will have a 10 dollar price tag on a perfectly fine McIntosh Tube amp. Lol |
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Post by leonski on May 8, 2021 20:49:43 GMT -5
With two eight inch woofers, your Klipsch speakers will thank you for stepping up to the XPA amp. I found each time i increased the power to my KLF-30's, the better driver control I had. The woofers will sound tighter and less sloppy. Just because the Klipsch are highly efficient doesn't mean they won't benefit from higher power. I run a pair of 600 watt XPA-1 monoblocks to my KLF-30's, which are 102db efficient. Type of speaker really matters here. Old School 'big box' stuff was highly damped while modern types need the damping of a low output impedance amplifier. Bass can either be right! Or over damped / attenuated or Underdamped and sloppy / over done.... And it would appear that those amps with a DF of say....500 or more, may do so into a perfect load. But once you start connecting crossovers, real wire you may end up with 50 or so. Which is fine, mostly. |
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Post by leonski on Jul 2, 2021 0:26:24 GMT -5
I've owned both BasX equipment and the X-series. Do the latter sound audibly better? Yes, in most systems. Is the difference worth the extra cost? Maybe - but there are factors that come into consideration: 1. Are you playing your system at higher volumes? Yes - maybe go with the big boys. 2. Are you hoping to keep the system for decades? Yes - maybe the X series will be more reliable (but this is pure speculation on my part). 3. How picky are you about the sound? Although you'll hear a probable improvement with the X series, the actual difference is only in the range of 10% (if that). 4. Which way did I go with my own system? My X series gear is gone. The BasX receiver is still in my system. Now these opinions are worth every penny you're paying for them. Only YOUR ears can make the final decision. Emotiva makes this easy with their return policies. Buy the new amps and try them out. Not worth it to you? Send them back. The shipping cost is trivial compared to having gear you don't like. But I'd guess (not having any access to Emotiva's data) that the majority of those who order the X-series amps end up keeping them. And you'd also have the satisfaction of knowing that you have the "best," and need not wonder about whether your current electronics are holding your speakers back. That all said, I'm obligated to throw the proverbial monkey wrench in the works... Have you heard tubes? Many swear on a stack of bibles that they prefer the sound of tubes with their Klipsch speakers to the sound of solid-state. Just asking... BOOM! EXACTLY where I'm headed. High sensitivity KLIPSCH with tubes? How can I miss? I've been looking into the VTA /Lantino 'dynaco' redo amps. The ST120 in kit form is nearly a bargain IF you have the minimal skillset needed for assembly AND the time / place to do so. THEY say 10 to 12 hours? I suspect near-2X that for ME, partly due to my marginal obsessive nature. But the bottom line is you that unless you are in a stadium or a near-anachoic room......a speaker PAIR with 96db sensitivity.....(per stereophile....not 99 as Klipsch rates) certainly don't need more than probably even the 35x2 of the ST70 version. Do the math.....room gain, 2 speakers.......At 3 1/2 watts with 10db headroom? You'd get evicted from your town...... With the 120 /= 60x2? I'm scared to do the math....but you'd NEVER tap out that amp..... And gordy? Speakers do NOT have 'watts'. Those ratings for power? Mostly mythical. But there are a few standards. 600 watts continuous? With a 90 some-odd db sensitive speaker. Nope. Well, maybe, but for about 100 miliseconds before meltdown....I suspect that is a peak rating of some kind. I'd approach it the way I listed above..... |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 2, 2021 2:48:53 GMT -5
High sensitivity speakers with low watts work fine. But low sensitivity speakers with megawatts work just as well in a living room environment. One of my audio amigos has Thiel 5i speakers (VERY optimistically rated at 87dB @ 1w - actually closer to 82dB) and Dahlquist DQ10a speakers (again, generously rated at about 86dB @ 1w). He drives either of the pairs with an ancient Crown PSA-2 power amp (275w @ 8 Ohms). The systems sound heavenly.
One would think that those low-sensitivity speakers couldn't possibly sound dynamic, but with sufficient watts, they not only can, but do! So there's more than one way to get what you want.
I'm currently in the horn speakers + tube power mode, but should I happen across a pair of Thiel CS3, Dahlquist DQ20i, or DQ10a speakers, I might consider those too. I got a cheap Crown PSA-2, and plan to recap the power supply when I get around to it. But for the time being, I'm very pleased with my setup as is.
Boomzilla
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Post by leonski on Jul 2, 2021 14:24:06 GMT -5
My panels are quite dynamic. That's the origin of 'Maggie Slam'........The coherent launch counts for a LOT in a proper setting.
Trouble with NEEDING a lot of watts is the temptation to purchase CHEAP watts. The CROWN XTI 1001 is about a buck a (8 ohm) watt.
Even the MODESTLY priced VTA offferins from you know who are is about 15$ per ASSEMBLED watt. In KIT form? a LOT less. Maybe 10$ per watt....
That's for the 120watt, while the 70watt is more......
My Parasound were about 4$ per watt (again, 8 ohm) but if I had deep pockets? I have NO IDEA of the upper limit.
One other issue is that of the Electric Bill. Supporting high power amps.....even with the red herring SMPS (not a huge fan) or even as a 'D' amp (less of a fan) doesnt' help when
plug to speaker efficiency is probably no MORE than 4% or 5%.........
I'm VERY tempted, that IF the KLIPSCH pass the 'listening test' that I would get a Latino KIT and do some reasonable upgrades. Improve the 12AU7 in the 'middle' position and maybe go upstream to KT88 tubes.....
The 45$ capacitor 'bump' is a no brainer, adding about 0.30$ oer watt to the final cost......
FIRST and LAST Crown amp I liked was back in the Mid-70s. Yep. the original DC300......
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 2, 2021 22:10:06 GMT -5
...FIRST and LAST Crown amp I liked was back in the Mid-70s. Yep. the original DC300...... I fell for the Adcom GFA-1 "power cube." |
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Post by bonscott on Jul 4, 2021 10:18:33 GMT -5
My panels are quite dynamic. That's the origin of 'Maggie Slam'........The coherent launch counts for a LOT in a proper setting. Trouble with NEEDING a lot of watts is the temptation to purchase CHEAP watts. The CROWN XTI 1001 is about a buck a (8 ohm) watt. Even the MODESTLY priced VTA offferins from you know who are is about 15$ per ASSEMBLED watt. In KIT form? a LOT less. Maybe 10$ per watt.... That's for the 120watt, while the 70watt is more...... My Parasound were about 4$ per watt (again, 8 ohm) but if I had deep pockets? I have NO IDEA of the upper limit. One other issue is that of the Electric Bill. Supporting high power amps.....even with the red herring SMPS (not a huge fan) or even as a 'D' amp (less of a fan) doesnt' help when plug to speaker efficiency is probably no MORE than 4% or 5%......... I'm VERY tempted, that IF the KLIPSCH pass the 'listening test' that I would get a Latino KIT and do some reasonable upgrades. Improve the 12AU7 in the 'middle' position and maybe go upstream to KT88 tubes..... The 45$ capacitor 'bump' is a no brainer, adding about 0.30$ oer watt to the final cost...... FIRST and LAST Crown amp I liked was back in the Mid-70s. Yep. the original DC300...... Red herring SMPS (not a huge fan)? I assume you mean the Gen 3 XPA Amps. I have an XPA 7. Sound and works Great. So what are you saying replace it with another 7 channel Amp my system will sound a lot better. If you are not a fan what would you replace it with it? Suggest another Multi channel Amp that would give me a significant audible difference. |
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Post by leonski on Jul 4, 2021 14:31:00 GMT -5
Audible difference really depends on the speaker....to a large extent. IF the speaker is a difficult load, with high reactance, for example, than the less capable amp or amps will NOT sound as good as a better electrical match. All amps, it might be true, actually sound THE SAME into a resistor...which NO speaker is..... I'm prejudiced against SMPS. General lack of dynamic headroom and that nasty switching frequency which makes it to the output and must be filtered...... Even though a good, Linear supply is a LOT heavier and has its own issues, that's what I PERSONALLY prefer. The idea that a 90% 'efficient' power supply is going to save you much is, IMO, a JOKE. Don't forget that your speakers are probably NO MORE than 3% or 4% 'efficient'......That means that from power wall PLUG to SPEAKER that is the MAXIMUM efficiency possible even IF everything else is an imposible 100% efficient. The difference is HEAT. And don't forget that the output of an A/B amp maxes out maybe 50% or so efficiency, anyway. You DO have a weight bonus, so your BACK has that to look forward to. Amps with switchers are easier to ship and don't self-destruct during shipping like a 100lb amp might. If I had to ship one of the Uber Heavy amps? I'd be tempted to strap it to a pallet.......and double box, at that...... Switchers are also more complex to design and build. THEORETICALLY, they should fail more often than an equally well-designed Linear PS. In short? go for SOUND. That's what presumabely you're here for, right? I only RARELY make an equipment suggestion. It is ALL very subjective. I DO know that if I had an amp at (for example) 200x7 (rated 8ohm) I'd ALSO have a dedicated circuit for JUST THE AMP. You don't NEED a One-Box solution. If you like D amps? EMO was selling the PA- 1 (B&O module) for a bargain price. You could have even distributed the amps to be closer to the speakers.........Maybe even 'hide' them? The market for 5 and 7 channel dedicated amps is fairly small. So you have a few PRIME manufacturers and a bunch of rebranding. I think ATI makes some....  ? Who knows where OUTLAW comes from? |
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Post by leonski on Jul 5, 2021 0:39:31 GMT -5
Boomzilla . ...And if so, would you point me in the direction of a good online place to start looking? (I live in the country and Best Buy is the only electronics store I have access... Mono price sells a tube integrated for about $250, if I remember right. If you like the sound, Black Ice audio sells some awesome integrated amps starting at about $1,500. Tubes4hifi sells kits, if you’d care to go in that direction. Other tube gear makers include: McIntosh Audio Research Conrad-Johnson Moon audio Rogue audio Audio by Van Alstine Quicksilver Balanced Audio Technology And a BUNCH of Chinese brands Boom Please dont forget a couple other real players....... DECWARE has a lifetime warranty which is transferrable upon factory inspection!!! BOTTLEHEAD mak+es an interesting line of kits and headphone amps.... You got the Big Guys but I was attracted to Decware which for about the same $$ as the built ST120 with all the goodies, will produce a 2x20 semi-integrated. It has level controls and 2 switchable inputs and runs EL34 in a very conservative mode. I suspect enough OOOMPH for Klipsch Forte IV of high sensitivity. All basically built to order, the wait time is now over 6 months...... |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 5, 2021 16:43:29 GMT -5
...Trouble with NEEDING a lot of watts is the temptation to purchase CHEAP watts...FIRST and LAST Crown amp I liked was back in the Mid-70s. Yep. the original DC300...... My Crown PSA-2 does 220WPC @ 8 Ohms & I paid $300 for it, giving a price of 0.73 cents per watt...  |
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Post by leonski on Jul 5, 2021 18:02:43 GMT -5
...Trouble with NEEDING a lot of watts is the temptation to purchase CHEAP watts...FIRST and LAST Crown amp I liked was back in the Mid-70s. Yep. the original DC300...... My Crown PSA-2 does 220WPC @ 8 Ohms & I paid $300 for it, giving a price of 0.73 cents per watt... FTC? Do whatever Stereophile does? Something like 1/3 power (rated) for 1 hour? How would they do with 'stats? or Other bad load? I think it would be better to find higher sensitivity speakers to 'love' than not NEED such amounts of power. Besides, a few I've seen have 90+ db sensitive speakers and a ridiculous 2x600 watts AND all thru a 15 amp circuit. Just doesnt' add up......from any direction. Nope, Some less powerful amps CAN really bring it. When paired with right speakers. |
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? Who knows where OUTLAW comes from? 
