DACs

[ken51]

I have 3 dacs. One in the Bluesound Node 2i, one in my Emotiva Pt100 preamp, and other in a Yamaha S300 cd  player. I have the Node connected via rca to the preamp, cd via optical, and coax. I run an iPhone through the cd player’s USB port. They all sound the same. Which is to say, everything sounds OK. My question is, at what price point or what specific dac is there to improve or alter the sound? I read reviews of DACs and the reviewers laud the detail, soundstage, etc. of DACs from $200 to $$$$. Is a stand alone dac an upgrade to DACs integrated within a component?

[ttocs]

Many times over the last few years I have come close to buying a DAC or two to try out to see what all the commotion is about. But, I've been so happy with my XMC-2, and XMC-1 before that (XMC-2 is a noticeable improvement in two channel sound), that I just never clicked on the Buy Now button.

Stand-alone DACs can have some very nice features which can allow for "knowing" what's being streamed through them, this can be reassuring for some, including me, but I still haven't bought any as yet.

I was given as a gift a FiiO USB DAC Headphone Amp but I haven't tried it out yet. Should be interesting to compare to the XMC-2.

The interest level in searching for a sound which I don't know exists vs what I know I'm so pleased with, is just not high enough to force me to make a move.

So, I guess my answer to your ending question is, it all depends. In my case, I'm super happy with what is built into the XMC-2.

[garbulky]

Jun 28, 2021 9:14:23 GMT -5 ken51 said:

I have 3 dacs. One in the Bluesound Node 2i, one in my Emotiva Pt100 preamp, and other in a Yamaha S300 cd  player. I have the Node connected via rca to the preamp, cd via optical, and coax. I run an iPhone through the cd player’s USB port. They all sound the same. Which is to say, everything sounds OK. My question is, at what price point or what specific dac is there to improve or alter the sound? I read reviews of DACs and the reviewers laud the detail, soundstage, etc. of DACs from $200 to $$$$. Is a stand alone dac an upgrade to DACs integrated within a component?

Most people do not hear differences in DACs. The measurements show that almost every dac specs to inaudible amounts of distortion as shown by blind tests. Even when one can be heard to sound different in a blind test, it would usually be a minor difference.

Having said that...I do hear differences in DACs and I don't think my hearing is particularly good. And I think those differences are worthwile - to me.

In any kind of blind test I am unable to hear a difference.
I will say that I was able to hear more of a difference in some DACs after other parts of my sound chain were improved. This included the room, the amplifier, the speakers and speaker positioning. Until then I wasn't really able to hear worthwhile improvements between good dacs.
If you can't hear a difference in regular use consider yourself lucky and move on to cooler things!

Things that people CAN hear a difference in are
Speakers
Speaker placement
Room acoustic treatment (A big one!)
Dual subwoofers.
Better subwoofers

[Boomzilla]

I, also hear differences in DACs. But even cheap DACs are SO good these days that even a little improvement costs a LOT of money. I simplify DACs into three broad categories:

1. PCM-ESS-Sabre-chip based DACs
2. PCM non-ESS DACs
3. Ladder-technology DACs

Which you might prefer in your system depends on your associated equipment and your audio preferences. Those who want a lot of "detail" in the upper midrange and treble will probably prefer either the (more expensive and cleaner-sounding) Ladder DACs or else the (somewhat prone to glare) ESS-Sabre based DACs.
If you prefer a more nautral sound, then the non-ESS DACs are probably going to be your preference.
It might also be mentioned that pairing ANY of the above DAC cores with a vacuum-tube based analog output stage generally smooths things out some.

So now to the hard part - how much money must you spend to get audibly superior conversion. Let's set the "baseline" at the Emotiva PT-100 level (since I've owned one and know what they sound like). The PT-100, incidentally, is a type 2 DAC in the above sort. I very much liked my PT-100 DAC, and am currently using its progeny, the Emotiva Big-Ego+. I get smooth frequency response, good dynamics and a good soundstage. The Schiit company also offers good economy DACs (types 1 for their economy units, & type 4 for their "higher end" ones) as does Audioquest (also type 1). For the money, these are impossible to beat.

The next step up would be DACs at 10x the price. Some I've known & loved included:

Mytek Liberty DAC2 (type 1)
Denafrips Aries II (type 3)
Black Ice Audio FX tube DAC (type 1 with a tube output stage)

Of those three, the Black Ice was my favorite, but is it worth its price? To me, it wasn't, but my system is tolerant of a wide variety of DACs and still sounds good.

So the bad news is: Increased expenditures don't always result in better sound. You mostly have to listen for yourself to decide.

Happy shopping - Boomzilla

[KeithL]

I would restate that first sentence as:

"Most people don't notice a difference between DACs that they consider important".

Most modern DACs that perform reasonably well sound very similar.

The differences between them may be subtle, or only audible on certain songs, and only if you know what to listen for.

And, at that point, there may be some question about which is more accurate, or which is actually better.

Part of the problem people have with DACs is that the differences between them are different than the differences we normally find with analog gear.

With an amplifier the differences we hear are most often related to noise or distortion.

With speakers the differences are most often related to frequency response, variations in dispersion at different frequencies, and energy storage.

But, with DACs, differences often relate to how transients are handled...

And, to be honest, this is not something most of us are accustomed to listening for...

Does a wire brush hitting a cymbal sound like a bunch of little wires hitting a hunk of metal or more like a leaky steam valve?

A lot of the time they sound about the same.

But, with some recordings, and some speakers, and some DACs, they sound a tiny bit different...

And, once you know what the difference sounds like, that difference is distinctive.

Likewise, with some recordings, "a guitar is a guitar"....

But, on some recordings, with the right DAC, and the right speakers, you may be able to hear whether that guitar has steel strings or nylon...

(And that distinction may or may not be a big deal to you.)

Our little Ego Plus DACs have three different filters you can choose from...

On a lot of recordings I very much doubt I could tell which is which...

But, on some recordings, and on some speakers, they really do sound a tiny bit different...

(Listen carefully to the guitars on The Eagles Hotel California...)

At which point you get to pick whether they sound significantly different... or whether one sounds better... or whether they just sound a tiny bit different.

(And, at that point, you get to decide whether you care enough to change the switch or not.)

Jun 28, 2021 12:38:11 GMT -5 garbulky said:

Jun 28, 2021 9:14:23 GMT -5 ken51 said:

I have 3 dacs. One in the Bluesound Node 2i, one in my Emotiva Pt100 preamp, and other in a Yamaha S300 cd  player. I have the Node connected via rca to the preamp, cd via optical, and coax. I run an iPhone through the cd player’s USB port. They all sound the same. Which is to say, everything sounds OK. My question is, at what price point or what specific dac is there to improve or alter the sound? I read reviews of DACs and the reviewers laud the detail, soundstage, etc. of DACs from $200 to $$$$. Is a stand alone dac an upgrade to DACs integrated within a component?

Most people do not hear differences in DACs. The measurements show that almost every dac specs to inaudible amounts of distortion as shown by blind tests. Even when one can be heard to sound different in a blind test, it would usually be a minor difference.

Having said that...I do hear differences in DACs and I don't think my hearing is particularly good. And I think those differences are worthwile - to me.

In any kind of blind test I am unable to hear a difference.
I will say that I was able to hear more of a difference in some DACs after other parts of my sound chain were improved. This included the room, the amplifier, the speakers and speaker positioning. Until then I wasn't really able to hear worthwhile improvements between good dacs.
If you can't hear a difference in regular use consider yourself lucky and move on to cooler things!

Things that people CAN hear a difference in are
Speakers
Speaker placement
Room acoustic treatment (A big one!)
Dual subwoofers.
Better subwoofers

[ken51]

Thanks all for the responses. I have been pondering the Egos, since I’m in the Emotiva ecosystem and I like the sound from the amp, preamp and T0 speakers. I even bought the TA 100 integrated amp for my basement. I am using B&W 602 S3 speakers which I bought used. It’s this unit where I use my older version of the iPhone SE. When I bought the TA 100, I attempted to use the USB port on the amp with the iPhone and when it didn’t work, Emotiva tech support said it wasn’t compatible with Apple products,of certain vintages, as my MacBook didn’t work either. Will the Egos work the iPhone? My plan is to use the Ego and run it through the TA100 and speakers. Should I run the iPhone and Ego using the usb, or use an RCA cable from the Ego to the amp? I realize I will also need the Apple camera connector.

[ken51]

Jun 28, 2021 12:38:11 GMT -5 garbulky said:

Jun 28, 2021 9:14:23 GMT -5 ken51 said:

I have 3 dacs. One in the Bluesound Node 2i, one in my Emotiva Pt100 preamp, and other in a Yamaha S300 cd  player. I have the Node connected via rca to the preamp, cd via optical, and coax. I run an iPhone through the cd player’s USB port. They all sound the same. Which is to say, everything sounds OK. My question is, at what price point or what specific dac is there to improve or alter the sound? I read reviews of DACs and the reviewers laud the detail, soundstage, etc. of DACs from $200 to $$$$. Is a stand alone dac an upgrade to DACs integrated within a component?

Most people do not hear differences in DACs. The measurements show that almost every dac specs to inaudible amounts of distortion as shown by blind tests. Even when one can be heard to sound different in a blind test, it would usually be a minor difference.

Having said that...I do hear differences in DACs and I don't think my hearing is particularly good. And I think those differences are worthwile - to me.

In any kind of blind test I am unable to hear a difference.
I will say that I was able to hear more of a difference in some DACs after other parts of my sound chain were improved. This included the room, the amplifier, the speakers and speaker positioning. Until then I wasn't really able to hear worthwhile improvements between good dacs.
If you can't hear a difference in regular use consider yourself lucky and move on to cooler things!

Things that people CAN hear a difference in are
Speakers
Speaker placement
Room acoustic treatment (A big one!)
Dual subwoofers.
Better subwoofers

[garbulky]

Jun 28, 2021 17:03:50 GMT -5 ken51 said:

Jun 28, 2021 12:38:11 GMT -5 garbulky said:

Most people do not hear differences in DACs. The measurements show that almost every dac specs to inaudible amounts of distortion as shown by blind tests. Even when one can be heard to sound different in a blind test, it would usually be a minor difference.

Having said that...I do hear differences in DACs and I don't think my hearing is particularly good. And I think those differences are worthwile - to me.

In any kind of blind test I am unable to hear a difference.
I will say that I was able to hear more of a difference in some DACs after other parts of my sound chain were improved. This included the room, the amplifier, the speakers and speaker positioning. Until then I wasn't really able to hear worthwhile improvements between good dacs.
If you can't hear a difference in regular use consider yourself lucky and move on to cooler things!

Things that people CAN hear a difference in are
Speakers
Speaker placement
Room acoustic treatment (A big one!)
Dual subwoofers.
Better subwoofers

Were you trying to reply to me? I don't see what you wrote

[ken51]

I have FOMO. I’ve spent much time with speaker placement until I believe I have them dialed in. A lot of my angst is it seems like the vast majority of DACs are sold online and the only DACs at the hifi shops are $1000 if they have them at all. So I came here to get more of a handle on the DAC landscape. I was listening to podcast and the host said the most significant upgrade one can make is with power cords. Oy vey.

[garbulky]

Jun 28, 2021 17:13:44 GMT -5 ken51 said:

I have FOMO. I’ve spent much time with speaker placement until I believe I have them dialed in. A lot of my angst is it seems like the vast majority of DACs are sold online and the only DACs at the hifi shops are $1000 if they have them at all. So I came here to get more of a handle on the DAC landscape. I was listening to podcast and the host said the most significant upgrade one can make is with power cords. Oy vey.

I've never noticed a difference in power cords

[Soup]

I use a Chord 2Qute. I think it rules... The only way to know for sure is to test the Dacs and choose what sounds best to you and ignore the noise.

[Ex_Vintage]

I upgraded to an external DAC to use with my XMC-1 and Node 2i. No difference..... until I upgraded my speakers. Then I could discern a difference between the Node2i, the XMC-1 and the SMSL SU-9 I purchased.