ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Feb 6, 2022 14:10:15 GMT -5
FW2.5 All Stereo BMbug I figured out a way to measure one channel with REW but with audio being produced by a third party app. I used an app by Studio Six (thanks marcl ) on the ATV4K being fed into the XMC-2, setup as Dolby ATMOS, and selecting the SL channel, the audio plays through all Left Channels when using All Stereo. This will allow any speaker and subwoofer channels normally active when using All Stereo on the XMC-2 to produce whatever sound they are to make. To record I used REW's RTA. The Studio Six app has various choices for sound. I chose 7s Sweep. The plot below is the result. It pretty much matches the previous plots posted above. There's about +12dB of BM for any given speaker selection, even though all the Left speaker channels are active. My belief now is that when choosing to make the sweep play on a Left channel, that only Left channels are involved so no BM for any Right channel is active. If there is another way to prove/disprove this, I'm all ears.  edit: I've got my confirmation. Whether it's one channel "chosen" to make sound and all the channels on that side, Left or Right, make sound, or, it's ALL channels making sound, it's the same result of elevated BM. Also, no real difference whether using pink noise or sweeps (can't use one or the other in some speaker modes when testing ALL as opposed to a single channel), the amount of elevated BM is the same except for ATMOS which is worse. In the plot below I've arbitrarily aligned all the traces at 700Hz so it makes it easy to see similarities or differences. Also note that when the Studio Six app is setup for 5.1, or 7.1, or ATMOS, that the volume levels are different. ATMOS is the quietest, and less channels incoming to the XMC-2 are louder. I wasn't able to get 2.0 to work in the Studio Six app, but no matter because it's not setup for doing sweeps or pink noise, only single tones, so it wouldn't be of any use here. The reason I wanted to get it to work is because I think All Stereo is working much better for PCM 2.0 than when using any of the surround modes which gets kinda dangerous when there's LFE present which is +10dB to the BM.  Maybe I'll try using REW the normal way but set it for two channel. edit: I setup the Mac mini for 2.0 audio and measured with REW. XMC-2 sees this incoming audio as PCM2.0. This morning I turned on the tv and was greeted with lots of bass. So I realized that I had it set for All Stereo and was watching a 5.1 Surround tv show. Duh. So I switched over to Pandora and music sounded fine, maybe a bit bass shy. weird. After watching some things in normal modes I began to tinker in the laboratory. The reason why music sounded ok was because I had set the Fronts back to Large, and for some reason this affects All Stereo. Large Fronts, Others Small, Left Sub Mono, the bass is weak. Why? dunno. All Small, Left Sub Mono, the bass is elevated about +13dB.  edit: I know why the bass drops down when Large Fronts are active, it's because the Left Sub Mono is not working at all. 100% of the All Stereo bass and BM is being produced by the Large Fronts. All the surround/atmos speakers are still active, at least on the Left side which is what I'm selecting to test. But the bass drops down to the level of the Large Left Front. When the amp for the Fronts is turned off the bass drops -20dB. So bass goes from 64dB down to 44dB. |
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Post by hsamwel on Feb 9, 2022 6:42:13 GMT -5
So why can’t Lonnie, Keith or anybody from Emotiva comment on these findings?
To me it sounds like the code Emotiva are using for the BM and how to calculate bass from multiple
speakers is way off.. Seems like no sound mode is OK?!
Is there any way we can setup an Emotiva processor and get correct bass? And 2-3dB off is not correct.
All large with sub(s) used only for LFE?
Does this measure correct for All Stereo? I know it will not use the sub in this setting.
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Post by 405x5 on Feb 9, 2022 8:02:43 GMT -5
“So why can’t Lonnie, Keith or anybody from Emotiva comment on these findings?” LOL….. I believe the answer to that question has been crystal clear ever since this thread got launched….(am I the only one who sees this?? 😂) |
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Post by marcl on Feb 9, 2022 9:06:19 GMT -5
“So why can’t Lonnie, Keith or anybody from Emotiva comment on these findings?” LOL….. I believe the answer to that question has been crystal clear ever since this thread got launched….(am I the only one who sees this?? 😂) I don't work for Emotiva and I certainly have been among those beating the drum (and I AM a drummer!) about this issue for a year now ... but it's fair to say they did well fixing the really BIG issue in FW2.5, and reliable sources suggest the final fix is in the works. I think we can now not beat them up anymore, at least until we hear the next FW release. |
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Feb 9, 2022 10:19:31 GMT -5
“So why can’t Lonnie, Keith or anybody from Emotiva comment on these findings?” LOL….. I believe the answer to that question has been crystal clear ever since this thread got launched….(am I the only one who sees this?? 😂) I rarely see Lonnie on here. And I'm sure he has other things to do. Keith is the main Emotiva person on this forum. |
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Post by 405x5 on Feb 9, 2022 10:24:47 GMT -5
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Feb 9, 2022 18:40:59 GMT -5
220209 FW2.5 All Stereo This cannot be used with any audio content with a .1 channel.Large Fronts, All Others Small, Center Sub LFE LFE is +26dB @40hz vs the Large Fronts, and the BM for SL +22dB vs what the level is @700hz.  All Large, Center Sub LFE The Large Channels, Left and Surround Left, both follow each other, and the LFE is +24dB @43hz. I raised the low frequency end of the test, disabled my Center speaker, and lowered the level so that my small 6.5" woofers in the surrounds were not strained.  |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Feb 9, 2022 18:41:11 GMT -5
To me it sounds like the code Emotiva are using for the BM and how to calculate bass from multiple speakers is way off.. Seems like no sound mode is OK?! All large with sub(s) used only for LFE? Does this measure correct for All Stereo? I know it will not use the sub in this setting. Multiple Subwoofer Channels for BM is much better than previous firmware, but needs more work. See above for the test you requested. |
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Post by hsamwel on Feb 9, 2022 18:42:42 GMT -5
LOL….. I believe the answer to that question has been crystal clear ever since this thread got launched….(am I the only one who sees this?? 😂) I rarely see Lonnie on here. And I'm sure he has other things to do. Keith is the main Emotiva person on this forum. But Keith pretty much answers newbie support questions regarding the processors and Dirac. Also SACD, audio mastering and such things he can write several pages of. For a person that ”can’t see every post” he sure finds all those he wants to answer to. But I seldom see him write in threads like this.. It’s as if he knows it’s true then he can’t deny or come up with an explanation. I actually don’t know what the problem is with Emotiva and sharing some info on the progress? It’s not like it’s top secret or that any competitor would like to steal anything from them. It doesn’t hurt them and they still wouldn’t have set release date, if that’s the issue. But I rather have some missed dates and info than a BIG NOTHING like we have now. |
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Post by hsamwel on Feb 9, 2022 18:56:22 GMT -5
220209 FW2.5 All Stereo This cannot be used with any audio content with a .1 channel.Large Fronts, All Others Small, Center Sub LFE LFE is +26dB @40hz vs the Large Fronts, and the BM for SL +22dB vs what the level is @700hz. <button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> All Large, Center Sub LFE The Large Channels, Left and Surround Left, both follow each other, and the LFE is +24dB @43hz. I raised the low frequency end of the test, disabled my Center speaker, and lowered the level so that my small 6.5" woofers in the surrounds were not strained. <button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> Oh, only +24dB.. What’s the problem?  My question is.. If this has EVER been correct in any firmware before how has this been missed when doing changes that effect BM or upmixing? And if it has always been this way, how could they have missed it at the beginning? Btw if you have all large and use All Stereo should it upmix to subs as well? Doesn’t that automatically give excessive bass? |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Feb 9, 2022 20:12:52 GMT -5
My question is.. If this has EVER been correct in any firmware before. Yes. I used to use All Stereo frequently with two channel and multi-channel. Btw if you have all large and use All Stereo should it upmix to subs as well? No. The subs are not active at all with All Large and Center Sub LFE unless there is LFE content in the audio. Nothing is "upmixed" to any subwoofer, Mono or LFE. Unless there is BM for a Mono Sub or LFE for the Center Sub LFE, the subs stay silent. I'm not testing Enhanced Bass, nor anything else with All Stereo for that matter. So when the Large Front Left is being tested in REW the Left Sub Mono is not active, even when there are Small channels setup in the system and are active when testing the Large Front Left. But when a Small channel is tested with the same system setup then the Subwoofer is active and has elevated BM. So if audio is being played by all the speaker channels in the system, then BM will be active for any Small channel that is setup, but will not be working for any Large channel. |
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Feb 9, 2022 22:47:46 GMT -5
I rarely see Lonnie on here. And I'm sure he has other things to do. Keith is the main Emotiva person on this forum. But Keith pretty much answers newbie support questions regarding the processors and Dirac. Also SACD, audio mastering and such things he can write several pages of. For a person that ”can’t see every post” he sure finds all those he wants to answer to. But I seldom see him write in threads like this.. It’s as if he knows it’s true then he can’t deny or come up with an explanation. I actually don’t know what the problem is with Emotiva and sharing some info on the progress? It’s not like it’s top secret or that any competitor would like to steal anything from them. It doesn’t hurt them and they still wouldn’t have set release date, if that’s the issue. But I rather have some missed dates and info than a BIG NOTHING like we have now. I believe it’s due to the past. Many moons ago Emotiva was very transparent on progress, releasing information on new products, etc. the problem was that they would mention a “timeline” when a product would be released and when that date was missed, they would be roundly criticized for missing it. Even now you can see that when they mention “soon” they are laughed at. I do agree that they should keep their customers up to date on progress, especially the BM issue. Even the most patient are getting restless. |
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Post by muslhead on Feb 10, 2022 10:37:12 GMT -5
“So why can’t Lonnie, Keith or anybody from Emotiva comment on these findings?” LOL….. I believe the answer to that question has been crystal clear ever since this thread got launched….(am I the only one who sees this?? 😂) no, you are not the only one, some of us who do have gotten shamed by the emotiva fanbois (or paid obfuscators) who lack objectivity and see nothing wrong with this egregious business practice. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Feb 10, 2022 11:12:52 GMT -5
There are a number of ways to communicate to Emotiva personnel.
Call and ask for a specific person. I've done this.
Email the general email address and ask that it be forwarded to the appropriate person. I've done this.
Send a Private Message to the person of interest using this forum. I've done this.
Each method was successful.
A post in a thread has no guarantee that anyone from Emotiva will see it.
I created this thread so I could post specific info on the Elevated BM issue that I was noticing. After a few days of testing and posting the results, I sent an email and pointed to this thread. Then I got phone calls and things began to happen. There have been times of frustration, but as of right now things have improved, and are continuing to improve. I am one who has a firm belief in improvement with a positive, go forward attitude. A clear path devoid of stones has the best opportunity for smooth travel.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 10, 2022 11:13:33 GMT -5
Just FYI... The main reason I don't usually weigh in on this sort of thing is simple. Damon does most of the hands-on processor testing... especially when it comes to new firmware and beta firmware... Therefore he is always going to have more detailed and up-to-date information on this sort of thing than I do. And, yes, I do generally prefer to only speak up on things where I'm reasonably sure I'm up to date and correct on the details.  (So let's say that I usually only post on things for which I actually have an answer...)
I would like to say something about "transparency" and "progress"... Finding and correcting bugs and issues with existing code, especially complex code, is a very different proposition than writing and verifying new code. In most cases, the most work is spent locating the exact problem, and until you find it there's often no way to know how long that's actually going to take. It's not like proofreading a novel... where you can offer detailed reports on how many pages you've completed each day. Looking for a reason why a complex piece of code doesn't do exactly what you think it should do is a lot more complicated than looking for a missing semicolon somewhere on a page of text.
And, quite often, there's no way to know exactly how long it will take to locate a problem until you locate it, and no way to know how long it will take to fix until you get it fixed... And, sometimes, you think you've found and fixed a problem, but when you test it you found out that you haven't fixed it (or that, in fixing it, you've created another problem). And... to be quite blunt... While you may prefer to have detailed status reports rather than silence...
1) Writing detailed status reports takes time that could probably be better spent actually working on a problem (or a new product). 2) The main reason why we've virtually stopped providing any sort of dates IS because we DO get so much flack when we miss them.
I rarely see Lonnie on here. And I'm sure he has other things to do. Keith is the main Emotiva person on this forum. But Keith pretty much answers newbie support questions regarding the processors and Dirac. Also SACD, audio mastering and such things he can write several pages of. For a person that ”can’t see every post” he sure finds all those he wants to answer to. But I seldom see him write in threads like this.. It’s as if he knows it’s true then he can’t deny or come up with an explanation. I actually don’t know what the problem is with Emotiva and sharing some info on the progress? It’s not like it’s top secret or that any competitor would like to steal anything from them. It doesn’t hurt them and they still wouldn’t have set release date, if that’s the issue. But I rather have some missed dates and info than a BIG NOTHING like we have now. |
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Post by bitzerjdb on Feb 10, 2022 11:27:46 GMT -5
No one is asking for a Detailed Status report or Locked in Dates of delivery. What we are looking for is a simple acknowledgment that the issue exists and is being worked on. I've built very complicated systems for a Major Pharma in my past life, I fully understand the issues around squashing bugs. My life was a bit more complicated because making a mistake would result in Millions of Dollars in FDA fines, and potential 10s of Millions in lost revenue.
This forum provides you with valuable information about how your systems function, some of us here do very detailed testing and are super transparent on what they find. How hard is it to say Thanks, we got it and are working on it.
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Post by hsamwel on Feb 10, 2022 18:08:26 GMT -5
But Keith pretty much answers newbie support questions regarding the processors and Dirac. Also SACD, audio mastering and such things he can write several pages of. For a person that ”can’t see every post” he sure finds all those he wants to answer to. But I seldom see him write in threads like this.. It’s as if he knows it’s true then he can’t deny or come up with an explanation. I actually don’t know what the problem is with Emotiva and sharing some info on the progress? It’s not like it’s top secret or that any competitor would like to steal anything from them. It doesn’t hurt them and they still wouldn’t have set release date, if that’s the issue. But I rather have some missed dates and info than a BIG NOTHING like we have now. I believe it’s due to the past. Many moons ago Emotiva was very transparent on progress, releasing information on new products, etc. the problem was that they would mention a “timeline” when a product would be released and when that date was missed, they would be roundly criticized for missing it. Even now you can see that when they mention “soon” they are laughed at. I do agree that they should keep their customers up to date on progress, especially the BM issue. Even the most patient are getting restless. Yes, but why even mention soon or imminent as early as in october??? We are in mid february now and the firmware don’t seem close.. In these cases they NEED to keep the customers upto speed on why there’s a delay. They are actually not helping themselves from being ridiculed..  Yes I know there was a lot more info when I bought my RMC-1. That was one of the reasons I bought it, Emotivas forum activity and info. It’s sad how things have become. |
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Post by hsamwel on Feb 10, 2022 18:36:53 GMT -5
Just FYI... The main reason I don't usually weigh in on this sort of thing is simple. Damon does most of the hands-on processor testing... especially when it comes to new firmware and beta firmware... Therefore he is always going to have more detailed and up-to-date information on this sort of thing than I do. And, yes, I do generally prefer to only speak up on things where I'm reasonably sure I'm up to date and correct on the details. (So let's say that I usually only post on things for which I actually have an answer...)
I would like to say something about "transparency" and "progress"... Finding and correcting bugs and issues with existing code, especially complex code, is a very different proposition than writing and verifying new code. In most cases, the most work is spent locating the exact problem, and until you find it there's often no way to know how long that's actually going to take. It's not like proofreading a novel... where you can offer detailed reports on how many pages you've completed each day. Looking for a reason why a complex piece of code doesn't do exactly what you think it should do is a lot more complicated than looking for a missing semicolon somewhere on a page of text.
And, quite often, there's no way to know exactly how long it will take to locate a problem until you locate it, and no way to know how long it will take to fix until you get it fixed... And, sometimes, you think you've found and fixed a problem, but when you test it you found out that you haven't fixed it (or that, in fixing it, you've created another problem). And... to be quite blunt... While you may prefer to have detailed status reports rather than silence...
1) Writing detailed status reports takes time that could probably be better spent actually working on a problem (or a new product). 2) The main reason why we've virtually stopped providing any sort of dates IS because we DO get so much flack when we miss them.
But Keith pretty much answers newbie support questions regarding the processors and Dirac. Also SACD, audio mastering and such things he can write several pages of. For a person that ”can’t see every post” he sure finds all those he wants to answer to. But I seldom see him write in threads like this.. It’s as if he knows it’s true then he can’t deny or come up with an explanation. I actually don’t know what the problem is with Emotiva and sharing some info on the progress? It’s not like it’s top secret or that any competitor would like to steal anything from them. It doesn’t hurt them and they still wouldn’t have set release date, if that’s the issue. But I rather have some missed dates and info than a BIG NOTHING like we have now. Thanks for your answer on this thread Keith. I think you misunderstand what we want. It’s not a release date, not a soon comment unless it’s within a week from release, not any detailed list of every code change done.. And I would bet most of the crowd here understands how much work there are finding bugs. We want Emotiva to acknowledge the issue. Be open about the progress of fixing it. Any stumbling blocks delaying a fix? Simply what’s up? Same goes for any planned feature really. And putting it on the forum only is not the best way.. Just about the same you do with the pods you should do with the processor progress. Say once a month, if there’s nothing to report one month then fine skip it. Or if that’s too tight the put out a update every other month. Or quartely.. Just something! It would help you guys a lot! I think you’re being modest here.. I think you know most of the stuff that being worked on. Also don’t you and Damon work together? You could simply ask if there’s anything that could be informed to customers? Or maybe Damon could do it himself?  |
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Post by 405x5 on Feb 10, 2022 19:34:22 GMT -5
“I think you misunderstand what we want.” What I would like to know is where the “WE” is coming from? No bad feelings intended. I would refrain from grandstanding on behalf of other forum members that MAY part company with much that’s here in this thread. |
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Post by bolle on Feb 11, 2022 5:17:07 GMT -5
The main reason why we've virtually stopped providing any sort of dates IS because we DO get so much flack when we miss them. Really no offense, but wouldn´t it make more sense and generate more benefit to improve with planning and assessing then just not set and communicate dates anymore? Speaking in IEEE 1044 terms, you are fixing one problem but not the defect, which is causing this and other problems as a root cause. |
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