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Post by hsamwel on Mar 21, 2023 6:48:10 GMT -5
Just saw this posted on the Emotiva FBook Group. I guess I didn't know that the high pass is always 12db/octave, and the setting is selectable 12 or 24 only for the low pass. Also, it seems to imply the Enhanced Bass setting is just for when you have large fronts playing 2.0 channel content. Does it not work for multichannel? Does it not work if you have no subs or center sub set to LFE, and bass management going to large fronts and Enhanced Bass enabled? View AttachmentI asked Keith sometime ago if the G4 processors might have a variable filter and he said there were no plans for that functionality. When I asked Damon about this about four years ago they where looking into adding more slopes and making them more configurable. I guess they scrapped that idea because nothing of the things ”they are working on” that I talked to him about panned out. Other than separate BM for each speaker the BM as a whole is very simple. Especially for odd settings. Having a LFE out only possiblility is great though for those that want it. Not many other provide this. |
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Post by marcl on Mar 21, 2023 7:07:49 GMT -5
Just saw this posted on the Emotiva FBook Group. I guess I didn't know that the high pass is always 12db/octave, and the setting is selectable 12 or 24 only for the low pass. Also, it seems to imply the Enhanced Bass setting is just for when you have large fronts playing 2.0 channel content. Does it not work for multichannel? Does it not work if you have no subs or center sub set to LFE, and bass management going to large fronts and Enhanced Bass enabled? View AttachmentEnhanced bass is duplicating the bass from your large fronts to the subs. LFE sub is pretty much not having any sub as this is an own channel. The Enhanced bass is somewhat working with the BM as it gets its HP filter from the BM settings of your front speakers when set to small. So how could this work without any subs?  This feature seems REALLY pointless in a multi channel setup so I guess 2.0 would be correct. In any normal setup that is.. Yours is excluded!  Yes, my setup is always on the fringe of normal!  But here's an example: In some systems - especially those with a projector - the LCR might all be large speakers capable of going down to 40Hz. Small speakers for surrounds and tops are all crossed over at 80Hz. So how would the LCR get bass below 40Hz? One way would be to just set them to small and cross them at 40. But I would have thought you could keep them set to large, enable Enhanced Bass, and set the crossover to 40. This would allow them to send bass below 40Hz to the subs while still playing full range themselves. The question is ... would the center channel get Enhanced Bass also? Now the question is, what if subs were connected only to center sub output set to LFE? Bass management - below 80Hz for the small speakers - would go to the large LCR. If Enhanced Bass is enabled, would bass below 40Hz still go to the sub output? The advantage to this configuration - if it indeed worked - would be that the small speaker bass would play to the large LCR first below 80Hz, with presumably better bass in that range down to 40. Then everybody plays to the subs below 40. Hypothetical question ... would it work? Or would all the bass below 40 be lost? With fronts set to large and center sub LFE, Enhanced Bass is available. Still available if center is also set to large ... but does it send center bass below the crossover to the subs?. If fronts are set to small, Enhanced Bass is not available if only the center is set to large. If surrounds or rears are set to large (with fronts small), then enhanced bass is available. All this suggests that in some circumstances with a multichannel setup, Enhance Bass can be enabled and it can work if the fronts are small, as long as either the surrounds or rears are large. All hypothetical ... maybe not practical ... but the question remains, will the Enhanced Bass go to the center sub set to LFE ... while Bass Management goes to the large speakers? |
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Post by marcl on Mar 21, 2023 7:10:01 GMT -5
I asked Keith sometime ago if the G4 processors might have a variable filter and he said there were no plans for that functionality. When I asked Damon about this about four years ago they where looking into adding more slopes and making them more configurable. I guess they scrapped that idea because nothing of the things ”they are working on” that I talked to him about panned out. Other than separate BM for each speaker the BM as a whole is very simple. Especially for odd settings. Having a LFE out only possiblility is great though for those that want it. Not many other provide this. It would be great to be able to configure slopes for each speaker. My Magnepans work best with more gradual transitions, but some others don't. I'm sure many people have a mix of speaker types as I do. |
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Post by marcl on Mar 21, 2023 7:30:14 GMT -5
Is anyone using Dirac with a configuration either Center Sub None or Center Sub LFE, with Bass Management going to Large Fronts? Are you using the latest Dirac 3.4.4? Not many use these kind of configurations as they are MUCH harder to get right in a room. Most use a single output for two or more subs LFE+BM.. Or multiple subs through a MiniDSP or similar device still with single output LFE+BM from the processor. When you have Dirac BC then I guess you could configure a system differently with better results more easily. On a different note.. I have totally changed my listening room, with new furiture and some changes in the speaker placements. Added a ceiling absorbant that also work as a anti reflect for light as I have a white ceiling (for my projector). When I measured my room now with 13p I got a lot worse bass readings than before. 70hz and below pretty much the same. But 70-150hz I got really low readings. On the previous measurement from april 2022 I used 9p tightly focused. I think because of this I got a slight lower volume calibrated. Before I had pretty loud watching atmos at -26dB. Now the feeling is I can raise it to about -20dB for the same result. The bass got tighter again because I simply have run a ”wrongly calibrated” for a long time. The strange thing is that I feel I got deeper bass now and more even. Don’t know if this is my room changes or if the new Dirac does it differently? The reason I asked the question was that I discovered a bug when I initially took measurements with 3.4.4. I send Bass Management to large fronts, and after taking measurements with 3.4.4 .... Bass Management did not work at all! NO bass from smalls went ANYWHERE! I reverted to 3.3.3 and it would not load the measurements taken with 3.4.4. But measurements taken with 3.3.3 worked fine. I had manually uninstalled 3.4.4, installed and tested 3.3.3, manually uninstalled 3.3.3, reinstalled 3.4.4 .... and NEW measurements taken from then on worked okay. But, the measurements I initially took with 3.4.4 still resulted in no Bass Management. Good news is, I can use 3.4.4 since I did manual uninstalls and reinstalls. In fact, the new 3.5.4 now says in the release notes that you MUST manually uninstall the previous version. Hmmmm ... I wonder if my bug found its way from Emotiva to Dirac? Okay so it works now ... but nobody can tell me how not uninstalling Dirac 3.3.3 before installing 3.4.4 causes Bass Management to not work. There should be no connection between Dirac and Bass Management. Sounds like the changes you made to your room had a positive effect on the bass. Before, you may have had some peaks that Dirac had to pull down. Now with the room changes and a 13 point calibration, it sounds like bass in the 70-150 range is lower .... but with correction does it measure okay? I changed the way my subs were balanced a couple weeks ago (in the miniDSP). Instead of going for max total output and having Dirac pull down the big peaks, I just went for a more even response that did not have deep nulls. The result after Dirac calibration sounds much better!
Very interesting about the levels that people listen. In my system I have had times when after calibration I listen at -12 or -10 for Atmos movies and generally -14 to -10 for music (higher range for multichannel). But with my most recent system changes I now have to turn up to -8. It sounds great though, and is plenty loud enough. |
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Post by hsamwel on Mar 25, 2023 6:43:47 GMT -5
Enhanced bass is duplicating the bass from your large fronts to the subs. LFE sub is pretty much not having any sub as this is an own channel. The Enhanced bass is somewhat working with the BM as it gets its HP filter from the BM settings of your front speakers when set to small. So how could this work without any subs? This feature seems REALLY pointless in a multi channel setup so I guess 2.0 would be correct. In any normal setup that is.. Yours is excluded! Yes, my setup is always on the fringe of normal! But here's an example: In some systems - especially those with a projector - the LCR might all be large speakers capable of going down to 40Hz. Small speakers for surrounds and tops are all crossed over at 80Hz. So how would the LCR get bass below 40Hz? One way would be to just set them to small and cross them at 40. But I would have thought you could keep them set to large, enable Enhanced Bass, and set the crossover to 40. This would allow them to send bass below 40Hz to the subs while still playing full range themselves. The question is ... would the center channel get Enhanced Bass also? Now the question is, what if subs were connected only to center sub output set to LFE? Bass management - below 80Hz for the small speakers - would go to the large LCR. If Enhanced Bass is enabled, would bass below 40Hz still go to the sub output? The advantage to this configuration - if it indeed worked - would be that the small speaker bass would play to the large LCR first below 80Hz, with presumably better bass in that range down to 40. Then everybody plays to the subs below 40. Hypothetical question ... would it work? Or would all the bass below 40 be lost? With fronts set to large and center sub LFE, Enhanced Bass is available. Still available if center is also set to large ... but does it send center bass below the crossover to the subs?. If fronts are set to small, Enhanced Bass is not available if only the center is set to large. If surrounds or rears are set to large (with fronts small), then enhanced bass is available. All this suggests that in some circumstances with a multichannel setup, Enhance Bass can be enabled and it can work if the fronts are small, as long as either the surrounds or rears are large. All hypothetical ... maybe not practical ... but the question remains, will the Enhanced Bass go to the center sub set to LFE ... while Bass Management goes to the large speakers? I have a projector. I also have large floor standers capable of lower than 25hz (speced at 28hz -3dB) in my room. My center also go down to about 45hz. I cross it at 80hz and the fronts I have tried both 70 and 80. Currently set at 70hz. Still would never use them as large in a multi channel setup. When having several sources playing sub 60-70hz in a room you’ll alter how the bass performs. Mostly not for the better. I always have one source of bass, my subs connected to center sub. Dirac treats them as one. With this setup I have consistant bass in my room. I asked the about Enhanced bass a while back and Keith chipped in and did not recommend using this approach. It could work for 2ch though, especially if we had more detailed control of the crossover points. 40-50-60 hz is too crude settings for it to work great. But you could be lucky that some of the crossover points fit exactly with your speakers. Although using this for multi channel?! Is this just so no altering is done to the front channels? It’s really hard to calibrate this as we have no control over what each bass source does to each other when played together. Dirac BC will help with this though. Enhanced bass always goes to the subs added for BM, never for LFE only. This would be a huge bug if that’s the case. In your example Enhanced bass do nothing. Unless you had others subs as mono/dual mono. If I remember correctly the enhaced bass works just from fronts and takes its HF crossover point. I think this is simple code faults from Emotiva. Center at large with fronts at small should not let you activate Enhanced bass. With only one LFE only sub it should also not let you activate Enhaced bass. Same goes for any other speaker other than the fronts. Only case where it should be available is when fronts are set to large and atleast one sub is set to mono. |
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Post by hsamwel on Mar 25, 2023 7:03:10 GMT -5
Btw I have tried music with speakers set to large and using subs with them set to small.
In my setup I can only hear improvements with the subs on. The bass in not slower, just
goes a bit deeper and you feel there’s a lot more power behind it.
Even though Dirac tells me my fronts plays down to 22-23hz in my room there’s a huge
difference when you listen to music. Most music doesn’t even have much sound below
30hz.
There’s not much difference to the texture and detail of the bass either, just more of it.
This must mean subs do play pretty good at 30-70hz.
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Post by hsamwel on Mar 25, 2023 7:20:37 GMT -5
Not many use these kind of configurations as they are MUCH harder to get right in a room. Most use a single output for two or more subs LFE+BM.. Or multiple subs through a MiniDSP or similar device still with single output LFE+BM from the processor. When you have Dirac BC then I guess you could configure a system differently with better results more easily. On a different note.. I have totally changed my listening room, with new furiture and some changes in the speaker placements. Added a ceiling absorbant that also work as a anti reflect for light as I have a white ceiling (for my projector). When I measured my room now with 13p I got a lot worse bass readings than before. 70hz and below pretty much the same. But 70-150hz I got really low readings. On the previous measurement from april 2022 I used 9p tightly focused. I think because of this I got a slight lower volume calibrated. Before I had pretty loud watching atmos at -26dB. Now the feeling is I can raise it to about -20dB for the same result. The bass got tighter again because I simply have run a ”wrongly calibrated” for a long time. The strange thing is that I feel I got deeper bass now and more even. Don’t know if this is my room changes or if the new Dirac does it differently? The reason I asked the question was that I discovered a bug when I initially took measurements with 3.4.4. I send Bass Management to large fronts, and after taking measurements with 3.4.4 .... Bass Management did not work at all! NO bass from smalls went ANYWHERE! I reverted to 3.3.3 and it would not load the measurements taken with 3.4.4. But measurements taken with 3.3.3 worked fine. I had manually uninstalled 3.4.4, installed and tested 3.3.3, manually uninstalled 3.3.3, reinstalled 3.4.4 .... and NEW measurements taken from then on worked okay. But, the measurements I initially took with 3.4.4 still resulted in no Bass Management. Good news is, I can use 3.4.4 since I did manual uninstalls and reinstalls. In fact, the new 3.5.4 now says in the release notes that you MUST manually uninstall the previous version. Hmmmm ... I wonder if my bug found its way from Emotiva to Dirac? Okay so it works now ... but nobody can tell me how not uninstalling Dirac 3.3.3 before installing 3.4.4 causes Bass Management to not work. There should be no connection between Dirac and Bass Management. Sounds like the changes you made to your room had a positive effect on the bass. Before, you may have had some peaks that Dirac had to pull down. Now with the room changes and a 13 point calibration, it sounds like bass in the 70-150 range is lower .... but with correction does it measure okay? I changed the way my subs were balanced a couple weeks ago (in the miniDSP). Instead of going for max total output and having Dirac pull down the big peaks, I just went for a more even response that did not have deep nulls. The result after Dirac calibration sounds much better!
Very interesting about the levels that people listen. In my system I have had times when after calibration I listen at -12 or -10 for Atmos movies and generally -14 to -10 for music (higher range for multichannel). But with my most recent system changes I now have to turn up to -8. It sounds great though, and is plenty loud enough. Hmm how could Dirac change the BM? It just calibrates each speaker full range. This must be some issue with Emotiva? I haven’t measured the Dirac calibration, yet. My speakers are 87-88dB sensitive all around. If I remember correctly your speakers are in the lower 80’s? This would account for the change in volume between us. My subs had more difference between peaks and dips this time. I guess Dirac compensated for this and thus lowered my volume. Last time I had pretty much only peaks to fix.i But I got more even measurements from the rest of my speakers this time instead. |
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Post by marcl on Mar 25, 2023 8:36:02 GMT -5
The reason I asked the question was that I discovered a bug when I initially took measurements with 3.4.4. I send Bass Management to large fronts, and after taking measurements with 3.4.4 .... Bass Management did not work at all! NO bass from smalls went ANYWHERE! I reverted to 3.3.3 and it would not load the measurements taken with 3.4.4. But measurements taken with 3.3.3 worked fine. I had manually uninstalled 3.4.4, installed and tested 3.3.3, manually uninstalled 3.3.3, reinstalled 3.4.4 .... and NEW measurements taken from then on worked okay. But, the measurements I initially took with 3.4.4 still resulted in no Bass Management. Good news is, I can use 3.4.4 since I did manual uninstalls and reinstalls. In fact, the new 3.5.4 now says in the release notes that you MUST manually uninstall the previous version. Hmmmm ... I wonder if my bug found its way from Emotiva to Dirac? Okay so it works now ... but nobody can tell me how not uninstalling Dirac 3.3.3 before installing 3.4.4 causes Bass Management to not work. There should be no connection between Dirac and Bass Management. Sounds like the changes you made to your room had a positive effect on the bass. Before, you may have had some peaks that Dirac had to pull down. Now with the room changes and a 13 point calibration, it sounds like bass in the 70-150 range is lower .... but with correction does it measure okay? I changed the way my subs were balanced a couple weeks ago (in the miniDSP). Instead of going for max total output and having Dirac pull down the big peaks, I just went for a more even response that did not have deep nulls. The result after Dirac calibration sounds much better!
Very interesting about the levels that people listen. In my system I have had times when after calibration I listen at -12 or -10 for Atmos movies and generally -14 to -10 for music (higher range for multichannel). But with my most recent system changes I now have to turn up to -8. It sounds great though, and is plenty loud enough. Hmm how could Dirac change the BM? It just calibrates each speaker full range. This must be some issue with Emotiva? I haven’t measured the Dirac calibration, yet. My speakers are 87-88dB sensitive all around. If I remember correctly your speakers are in the lower 80’s? This would account for the change in volume between us. My subs had more difference between peaks and dips this time. I guess Dirac compensated for this and thus lowered my volume. Last time I had pretty much only peaks to fix.i But I got more even measurements from the rest of my speakers this time instead. Exactly! There's no logical way. But I documented and repeated it with one symptom last April after 3.3.3 was released, and then again with 3.4.4 with a different symptom. I sent all the files to Emotiva. I'm assuming since I determined that manually uninstalling and reinstalling back one version and then forward again and then taking new measurements fixed the problem in both cases ... they have probably moved on to other pressing issues. The reason I thought it was important to pursue it was there was clearly an unintended connection, and so it could very well be affecting functionality in a less obvious but potentially significant way. Yes, most of my speakers are Magnepans and though their sensitivity is spec'ed at 86db it's generally thought to be optimistic. |
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Post by marcl on Mar 25, 2023 8:45:09 GMT -5
Btw I have tried music with speakers set to large and using subs with them set to small. In my setup I can only hear improvements with the subs on. The bass in not slower, just goes a bit deeper and you feel there’s a lot more power behind it. Even though Dirac tells me my fronts plays down to 22-23hz in my room there’s a huge difference when you listen to music. Most music doesn’t even have much sound below 30hz. There’s not much difference to the texture and detail of the bass either, just more of it. This must mean subs do play pretty good at 30-70hz. It really, really depends on how well the large speakers handle bass, how well the subs play up to 80Hz ... and for music, the genre of music. In my situation the Mgnepan bass sounds better than my Outlaw subs down to around 50Hz. Better subs would probably move that number up a bit. And I listen to mostly jazz and small-ensemble classical so I want to hear very clear and accurate bass, but it doesn't have to have a lot of dynamic range. I have a couple tracks to evaluate when I make changes and one is a tuba descending a scale through the crossover region. It's very evident when it transitions to subs. But this is all very personal. Overall though ... yes, Enhanced Bass is okay as a marketing feature but it just can't work in practical terms and especially with regard to Dirac. Just like connecting multiple subs to separate sub outputs can't work. I've been debating building a couple open baffle dipole subs for a long time. Still not sure, but maybe someday. I heard Magnepan's prototype OB dipole made from eight 6 1/2" drivers a few years ago and it was amazing. |
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Post by hsamwel on Mar 25, 2023 9:38:21 GMT -5
Hmm how could Dirac change the BM? It just calibrates each speaker full range. This must be some issue with Emotiva? I haven’t measured the Dirac calibration, yet. My speakers are 87-88dB sensitive all around. If I remember correctly your speakers are in the lower 80’s? This would account for the change in volume between us. My subs had more difference between peaks and dips this time. I guess Dirac compensated for this and thus lowered my volume. Last time I had pretty much only peaks to fix.i But I got more even measurements from the rest of my speakers this time instead. Exactly! There's no logical way. But I documented and repeated it with one symptom last April after 3.3.3 was released, and then again with 3.4.4 with a different symptom. I sent all the files to Emotiva. I'm assuming since I determined that manually uninstalling and reinstalling back one version and then forward again and then taking new measurements fixed the problem in both cases ... they have probably moved on to other pressing issues. The reason I thought it was important to pursue it was there was clearly an unintended connection, and so it could very well be affecting functionality in a less obvious but potentially significant way. Yes, most of my speakers are Magnepans and though their sensitivity is spec'ed at 86db it's generally thought to be optimistic. Yes, I read up a bit on Magnepans. It seems they rate them at 4 ohms rather than the normal 8 ohms. This means compared to normal speakers they are actually 83 ohms. However the manufacturers says the design of the speaker gains 3 dBs in a room because of how it projects sound. I can’t disprove this or anything else about these speakers. They seem very good, and many say they are great. Too expensive for my taste though.. And too big for my room. |
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Post by marcl on Mar 25, 2023 10:08:39 GMT -5
Exactly! There's no logical way. But I documented and repeated it with one symptom last April after 3.3.3 was released, and then again with 3.4.4 with a different symptom. I sent all the files to Emotiva. I'm assuming since I determined that manually uninstalling and reinstalling back one version and then forward again and then taking new measurements fixed the problem in both cases ... they have probably moved on to other pressing issues. The reason I thought it was important to pursue it was there was clearly an unintended connection, and so it could very well be affecting functionality in a less obvious but potentially significant way. Yes, most of my speakers are Magnepans and though their sensitivity is spec'ed at 86db it's generally thought to be optimistic. Yes, I read up a bit on Magnepans. It seems they rate them at 4 ohms rather than the normal 8 ohms. This means compared to normal speakers they are actually 83 ohms. However the manufacturers says the design of the speaker gains 3 dBs in a room because of how it projects sound. I can’t disprove this or anythings else about these speakers. They seem very good, and many say they are great. Too expensive for my taste though.. And too big for my room. Not sure about the numbers, but being more like a line source than a point source ... the sound falls off more linearly than inverse square. So what you lose in efficiency you gain a bit back in that level doesn't fall off as much with distance. But aside from efficiency, they perform best with an amp that can deliver a lot of peak power. |
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Post by hsamwel on Mar 25, 2023 16:38:44 GMT -5
Just for fun I wanted to try out the new Spatial Audio toolkit bluray disc.
Thought I’d check my levels for every speaker now that I can.
Used the Periodic pink noise.
Connected my UMIK-1 to my laptop and started REW.
Set it to measure SPL.
Tested each speaker and found some oddities.
My sub measured way high. 6dB high to be exact. I took into account it being
LFE and Harman 4dB curve was active. So when I sat its level I had it 14dB higher
than the rest. Still was 6dB higher.
Top rears were 2-2.5dB too high.
Top fronts were 3.5-4dB too high.
Front right was 0.5dB too high.
Wides were 0.5-1dB too high.
Backs were 1.5-2 dB too high.
Front L, Center, L Side, R Side had the same SPL. Front L was the reference.
Changed these values in RMC and then ran the Dolby Atmos demos disc.
Amaze and Leaf sounded just amazing.
But lowering the bass 6dB.. I can’t help but thinking there’s some issue here.
I think I have to Connect REW directly to my RMC and measure what’s going on.
The difference between LFE and BM.. It should be 10dB.. But now that I have
lowered it 6dB?!
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Post by marcl on Mar 26, 2023 5:17:51 GMT -5
Just for fun I wanted to try out the new Spatial Audio toolkit bluray disc. Thought I’d check my levels for every speaker now that I can. Used the Periodic pink noise. Connected my UMIK-1 to my laptop and started REW. Set it to measure SPL. Tested each speaker and found some oddities. My sub measured way high. 6dB high to be exact. I took into account it being LFE and Harman 4dB curve was active. So when I sat its level I had it 14dB higher than the rest. Still was 6dB higher. Top rears were 2-2.5dB too high. Top fronts were 3.5-4dB too high. Front right was 0.5dB too high. Wides were 0.5-1dB too high. Backs were 1.5-2 dB too high. Front L, Center, L Side, R Side had the same SPL. Front L was the reference. Changed these values in RMC and then ran the Dolby Atmos demos disc. Amaze and Leaf sounded just amazing. But lowering the bass 6dB.. I can’t help but thinking there’s some issue here. I think I have to Connect REW directly to my RMC and measure what’s going on. The difference between LFE and BM.. It should be 10dB.. But now that I have lowered it 6dB?! I have found - and I think ttocs has similar observations - that every source of level setting test sounds produces slightly different results. For example, I have the Dolby Atmos 2016 Demo BluRay and it has pink noise to check each speaker. I also have an AppleTV app from Studio Six Digital that can do the same for all Atmos channels. The results are different ... sometimes just 1-2db, but in the case of LFE quite a lot of difference. And these may differ slightly from using pink noise from REW vs the Level noise in the processor. "A man with one watch always knows what time it is ... a man with two watches is never sure" |
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Post by marcl on Mar 26, 2023 5:21:23 GMT -5
Just for fun I wanted to try out the new Spatial Audio toolkit bluray disc. Thought I’d check my levels for every speaker now that I can. Used the Periodic pink noise. Connected my UMIK-1 to my laptop and started REW. Set it to measure SPL. Tested each speaker and found some oddities. My sub measured way high. 6dB high to be exact. I took into account it being LFE and Harman 4dB curve was active. So when I sat its level I had it 14dB higher than the rest. Still was 6dB higher. Top rears were 2-2.5dB too high. Top fronts were 3.5-4dB too high. Front right was 0.5dB too high. Wides were 0.5-1dB too high. Backs were 1.5-2 dB too high. Front L, Center, L Side, R Side had the same SPL. Front L was the reference. Changed these values in RMC and then ran the Dolby Atmos demos disc. Amaze and Leaf sounded just amazing. But lowering the bass 6dB.. I can’t help but thinking there’s some issue here. I think I have to Connect REW directly to my RMC and measure what’s going on. The difference between LFE and BM.. It should be 10dB.. But now that I have lowered it 6dB?! $150 for that jawn !!!  spatialcd.com/products/spatial-audio-calibration-toolkit |
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ttocs
Global Moderator 
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,154
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Post by ttocs on Mar 26, 2023 10:03:01 GMT -5
Just for fun I wanted to try out the new Spatial Audio toolkit bluray disc. Thought I’d check my levels for every speaker now that I can. Used the Periodic pink noise. Connected my UMIK-1 to my laptop and started REW. Set it to measure SPL. Tested each speaker and found some oddities. My sub measured way high. 6dB high to be exact. I took into account it being LFE and Harman 4dB curve was active. So when I sat its level I had it 14dB higher than the rest. Still was 6dB higher. Top rears were 2-2.5dB too high. Top fronts were 3.5-4dB too high. Front right was 0.5dB too high. Wides were 0.5-1dB too high. Backs were 1.5-2 dB too high. Front L, Center, L Side, R Side had the same SPL. Front L was the reference. Changed these values in RMC and then ran the Dolby Atmos demos disc. Amaze and Leaf sounded just amazing. But lowering the bass 6dB.. I can’t help but thinking there’s some issue here. I think I have to Connect REW directly to my RMC and measure what’s going on. The difference between LFE and BM.. It should be 10dB.. But now that I have lowered it 6dB?! I have found - and I think ttocs has similar observations - that every source of level setting test sounds produces slightly different results. For example, I have the Dolby Atmos 2016 Demo BluRay and it has pink noise to check each speaker. I also have an AppleTV app from Studio Six Digital that can do the same for all Atmos channels. The results are different ... sometimes just 1-2db, but in the case of LFE quite a lot of difference. And these may differ slightly from using pink noise from REW vs the Level noise in the processor. What I've found is that speaker channel to speaker channel variance is pretty close with each type and source of Pink Noise, and, that sometimes the subwoofer channel(s) are what I expect and sometimes not - depending on which type/source I use. I consider REW to be reliable, so I compare all to REW. Also, the Dolby Disc noise is the best quality. The SPL meters don't dance much when using it. So for channel leveling this is the best quality noise, but it's the most difficult to use, so I don't use it. I end up using processor noise to get close and verifying all my channels with REW sweeps. "A man with one watch always knows what time it is ... a man with two watches is never sure" I love this!!! I'm a man with four microphones. |
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Post by hsamwel on Mar 26, 2023 10:10:47 GMT -5
Just for fun I wanted to try out the new Spatial Audio toolkit bluray disc. Thought I’d check my levels for every speaker now that I can. Used the Periodic pink noise. Connected my UMIK-1 to my laptop and started REW. Set it to measure SPL. Tested each speaker and found some oddities. My sub measured way high. 6dB high to be exact. I took into account it being LFE and Harman 4dB curve was active. So when I sat its level I had it 14dB higher than the rest. Still was 6dB higher. Top rears were 2-2.5dB too high. Top fronts were 3.5-4dB too high. Front right was 0.5dB too high. Wides were 0.5-1dB too high. Backs were 1.5-2 dB too high. Front L, Center, L Side, R Side had the same SPL. Front L was the reference. Changed these values in RMC and then ran the Dolby Atmos demos disc. Amaze and Leaf sounded just amazing. But lowering the bass 6dB.. I can’t help but thinking there’s some issue here. I think I have to Connect REW directly to my RMC and measure what’s going on. The difference between LFE and BM.. It should be 10dB.. But now that I have lowered it 6dB?! $150 for that jawn !!! spatialcd.com/products/spatial-audio-calibration-toolkitWell, it’s quite much for a test disc. Audio only also. But there’ are disc only or digital only options that are cheaper. $99 I believe. I can’t see the prices because the site converts to local currency. But.. It’s HQ all the way. The sound files are all 24bit lossless TrueHD. Full atmos, up to 9.1.6. Many tests are pretty unique for sound testing. They’re done so you mostly can test by ear alone to get a feel for how sound travels from speaker to speaker. Of course you need to have a base before you do this so having a room calibration done first is a good idea. Of course some tests need some kind of SPL meter or REW to be useful. |
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Post by marcl on Mar 26, 2023 10:36:52 GMT -5
Well, it’s quite much for a test disc. Audio only also. But there’ are disc only or digital only options that are cheaper. $99 I believe. I can’t see the prices because the site converts to local currency. But.. It’s HQ all the way. The sound files are all 24bit lossless TrueHD. Full atmos, up to 9.1.6. Many tests are pretty unique for sound testing. They’re done so you mostly can test by ear alone to get a feel for how sound travels from speaker to speaker. Of course you need to have a base before you do this so having a room calibration done first is a good idea. Of course some tests need some kind of SPL meter or REW to be useful. Yes ... of course I got the digital download. I found by leaving the site without buying a popup offered a 15% discount so I got it for $84.99. The code is SAVE15. It really is interesting. Only played with it a little but I like the visual display and the panning around combinations of the Atmos speakers. I haven't done the level check yet. |
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Post by marcl on Mar 26, 2023 10:45:52 GMT -5
I have found - and I think ttocs has similar observations - that every source of level setting test sounds produces slightly different results. For example, I have the Dolby Atmos 2016 Demo BluRay and it has pink noise to check each speaker. I also have an AppleTV app from Studio Six Digital that can do the same for all Atmos channels. The results are different ... sometimes just 1-2db, but in the case of LFE quite a lot of difference. And these may differ slightly from using pink noise from REW vs the Level noise in the processor. What I've found is that speaker channel to speaker channel variance is pretty close with each type and source of Pink Noise, and, that sometimes the subwoofer channel(s) are what I expect and sometimes not - depending on which type/source I use. I consider REW to be reliable, so I compare all to REW. Also, the Dolby Disc noise is the best quality. The SPL meters don't dance much when using it. So for channel leveling this is the best quality noise, but it's the most difficult to use, so I don't use it. I end up using processor noise to get close and verifying all my channels with REW sweeps. "A man with one watch always knows what time it is ... a man with two watches is never sure" I love this!!! I'm a man with four microphones. And I have about 65 watches ... but most of the time I don't care what DAY it is, let alone the time! |
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Post by hsamwel on Mar 26, 2023 11:06:53 GMT -5
I have a problem with REW, my laptop and RMC-1.
When I connect my laptop to RMC-1 I get a picture instantly. No problem there.
Start REW, choose soundcard, but RMC-1 is not there, my Sony TV is however.
When I use this I can’t choose output speakers at all. L/R is but nothing more.
If I disconnect both the TV and my vertex2 (which then goes to my projector)
I get RMC-1 in the list.
I set it up and can choose up to 7.1 as I should.
The problem is I don’t get sound most of the times. Sometimes I have gotten it
to measure my sub, then a minute later I can’t get any sound from it, this without
changing any settings in REW. Am I doing something wrong?
Is there some things I need to do to setup REW for Emotiva for this to work?
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ttocs
Global Moderator
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Post by ttocs on Mar 26, 2023 11:18:52 GMT -5
Well, it’s quite much for a test disc. Audio only also. But there’ are disc only or digital only options that are cheaper. $99 I believe. I can’t see the prices because the site converts to local currency. But.. It’s HQ all the way. The sound files are all 24bit lossless TrueHD. Full atmos, up to 9.1.6. Many tests are pretty unique for sound testing. They’re done so you mostly can test by ear alone to get a feel for how sound travels from speaker to speaker. Of course you need to have a base before you do this so having a room calibration done first is a good idea. Of course some tests need some kind of SPL meter or REW to be useful. Yes ... of course I got the digital download. I found by leaving the site without buying a popup offered a 15% discount so I got it for $84.99. The code is SAVE15. It really is interesting. Only played with it a little but I like the visual display and the panning around combinations of the Atmos speakers. I haven't done the level check yet. I used the discount code and ordered the disc. |
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