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Post by marcl on Jul 14, 2021 17:27:10 GMT -5
The thing is ... it would do nothing to solve any of the issues being described here. The XML backup file just has parameters for existing features. Bass management is handled in the system code based on the configuration of speaker size and crossovers. There's no way available to us to affect that code. True.... but what I was thinking is if there is interest in an app/web interface to change settings. Could be. Others have asked about this. Maybe start a new thread and get a discussion going on features and approaches. |
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Post by ElectricKoolAid on Jul 15, 2021 9:37:51 GMT -5
The thing is ... it would do nothing to solve any of the issues being described here. The XML backup file just has parameters for existing features. Bass management is handled in the system code based on the configuration of speaker size and crossovers. There's no way available to us to affect that code. True.... but what I was thinking is if there is interest in an app/web interface to change settings. If this would be better suited for a new thread we can continue there, but with that said: I work in IT but only have a very low level knowledge of programming - none in the languages that were mentioned. With that said I'm willing to help in any way I can, whether that's just testing or trying my hand at doing some of the basic programming but not sure how long it would take me to get up to speed to be useful. |
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Post by marcl on Jul 15, 2021 15:09:27 GMT -5
Bass Control. I have wondered if the Bass Control affects all channels. And now, how it might affect the bass with respect to the issues described in this thread. In my system the small speaker bass goes to the Fronts, and LFE-only to the subs. I decreased the Bass Control -5db, and the result is the dashed lines in this REW plot. I'm only showing Front Left, Center, Surround Left, Back Left and LFE for clarity. Crossovers are set to: Center 120Hz; Surround Left 80Hz; Back Left 70Hz. Bass Control corner frequency is the default 100Hz.  As you can see, it affects the Large Front as you would expect, and has no effect on the LFE. For the other speakers it's effect is evident only near the crossover point ... it affects the s mall speaker itself, but not it's bass which goes to the Large Front. Something about all of this doesn't make sense though ... can't put my finger on it. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jul 15, 2021 15:27:09 GMT -5
Bass Control. I have wondered if the Bass Control affects all channels. And now, how it might affect the bass with respect to the issues described in this thread. In my system the small speaker bass goes to the Fronts, and LFE-only to the subs. I decreased the Bass Control -5db, and the result is the dashed lines in this REW plot. I'm only showing Front Left, Center, Surround Left, Back Left and LFE for clarity. Crossovers are set to: Center 120Hz; Surround Left 80Hz; Back Left 70Hz. Bass Control corner frequency is the default 100Hz. As you can see, it affects the Large Front as you would expect, and has no effect on the LFE. For the other speakers it's effect is evident only near the crossover point ... it affects the s mall speaker itself, but not it's bass which goes to the Large Front. Something about all of this doesn't make sense though ... can't put my finger on it. I would think something called "Bass Control" would control all normal bass for all channels except for LFE. So it looks like it only controls the bass for Large channels? And it doesn't do anything for BM that flows through those same Large Fronts. |
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Post by marcl on Jul 15, 2021 15:46:49 GMT -5
Bass Control. I have wondered if the Bass Control affects all channels. And now, how it might affect the bass with respect to the issues described in this thread. In my system the small speaker bass goes to the Fronts, and LFE-only to the subs. I decreased the Bass Control -5db, and the result is the dashed lines in this REW plot. I'm only showing Front Left, Center, Surround Left, Back Left and LFE for clarity. Crossovers are set to: Center 120Hz; Surround Left 80Hz; Back Left 70Hz. Bass Control corner frequency is the default 100Hz. As you can see, it affects the Large Front as you would expect, and has no effect on the LFE. For the other speakers it's effect is evident only near the crossover point ... it affects the s mall speaker itself, but not it's bass which goes to the Large Front. Something about all of this doesn't make sense though ... can't put my finger on it. I would think something called "Bass Control" would control all normal bass for all channels except for LFE. So it looks like it only controls the bass for Large channels? And it doesn't do anything for BM that flows through those same Large Fronts. It's affecting the small channels, but we can only see the effect on what plays through the small speaker itself, not the BM speaker. But here's what bothers me (other than that fact that we keep talking about "BM"  ) ... in terms of signal flow, where is the BM added to my Large Fronts such that the Bass Control affects the L/R channels and not the BM? |
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Post by JKCashin on Jul 15, 2021 16:13:46 GMT -5
True.... but what I was thinking is if there is interest in an app/web interface to change settings. If this would be better suited for a new thread we can continue there, but with that said: I work in IT but only have a very low level knowledge of programming - none in the languages that were mentioned. With that said I'm willing to help in any way I can, whether that's just testing or trying my hand at doing some of the basic programming but not sure how long it would take me to get up to speed to be useful. I think it warrants its own thread. I will work on something |
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Post by ttocs on Jul 15, 2021 16:15:45 GMT -5
I would think something called "Bass Control" would control all normal bass for all channels except for LFE. So it looks like it only controls the bass for Large channels? And it doesn't do anything for BM that flows through those same Large Fronts. It's affecting the small channels, but we can only see the effect on what plays through the small speaker itself, not the BM speaker. But here's what bothers me (other than that fact that we keep talking about "BM" ) ... in terms of signal flow, where is the BM added to my Large Fronts such that the Bass Control affects the L/R channels and not the BM? Where indeed? The routing/handling of the bass below the crossover settings is one aspect of this issue. But also, Large channels can be elevated too as #9 (Beatles song) demonstrates when setting the Fronts as Large and the Center Sub LFE. Anybody got a flow chart for this stuff? |
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Post by marcl on Jul 15, 2021 16:24:15 GMT -5
It's affecting the small channels, but we can only see the effect on what plays through the small speaker itself, not the BM speaker. But here's what bothers me (other than that fact that we keep talking about "BM" ) ... in terms of signal flow, where is the BM added to my Large Fronts such that the Bass Control affects the L/R channels and not the BM? Where indeed? The routing/handling of the bass below the crossover settings is one aspect of this issue. But also, Large channels can be elevated too as #9 (Beatles song) demonstrates when setting the Fronts as Large and the Center Sub LFE. Anybody got a flow chart for this stuff? This got me thinking back to a year ago when I first poked my nose into tracking down bugs in this system. Take a look at what I sent them ... maybe they fixed where PEQ sits in the chart but left Bass (and likely Treble) behind. This was around end of July last year before Dirac.    |
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Post by ttocs on Jul 15, 2021 16:34:41 GMT -5
Where indeed? The routing/handling of the bass below the crossover settings is one aspect of this issue. But also, Large channels can be elevated too as #9 (Beatles song) demonstrates when setting the Fronts as Large and the Center Sub LFE. Anybody got a flow chart for this stuff? This got me thinking back to a year ago when I first poked my nose into tracking down bugs in this system. Take a look at what I sent them ... maybe they fixed where PEQ sits in the chart but left Bass (and likely Treble) behind. This was around end of July last year before Dirac. Please see if you can track down a date so I can lookup which FW was out. edit: Never mind, it's FW1.10 that was out prior to Dirac, and it was out since May last year. |
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Post by marcl on Jul 15, 2021 17:18:09 GMT -5
This got me thinking back to a year ago when I first poked my nose into tracking down bugs in this system. Take a look at what I sent them ... maybe they fixed where PEQ sits in the chart but left Bass (and likely Treble) behind. This was around end of July last year before Dirac. Please see if you can track down a date so I can lookup which FW was out. edit: Never mind, it's FW1.10 that was out prior to Dirac, and it was out since May last year. Yes because .... although Support assured me that PEQ worked in March, it most certainly did NOT work on subs until 1.10 in May. So that's when I found the bug I illustrated in the flow diagrams. But at the same time Dirac came out and I tested Dirac with 2.0 and I don't think I actually went back to see if the PEQ bug was fixed in 2.0. |
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Post by ttocs on Jul 15, 2021 23:44:59 GMT -5
Everything so far has just been measuring and comparing ONLY the bass below 200Hz. This was so it would be somewhat easier to get some points across and make some of the visuals less confusing. This image should be really easy to understand. It's one subwoofer, the Front Left speaker setup as Small, and DD Surround compared to All Stereo, and the User EQ is being used so there is no correction. The XO is still 200Hz. This image introduces us to actual traces from 20Hz to 5000Hz. Disregard the bump at about 120Hz. System Setup 7.1.4 All Small Left Sub Mono, and only one subwoofer is active to keep it as basic as possible and no summing possible. But for the record, even with more subs active the results were the same, but I'm posting this one just to show that extra subs don't change the offset between above and below the XO. Compare 50Hz to 2500Hz. I'm using these as the best case scenario for benefit of doubt as the minimum difference between above and below the XO while being very confident with the ranges of frequencies producing the traces at these points. With DD Surround, the trace for the Front Left shows the difference above and below the XO is 5dB, and the LFE channel is 6.5dB above the bass for the Front Left. This represents a total of 11.5dB. To make this correct, BM would need to be lowered by -5dB, and the LFE would ned to be lowered by -1.5dB, which would then be the correct 10dB difference between LFE and speaker channels. With All Stereo, the Front Left trace shows a difference of 19.5dB, and the LFE is about 6.5dB higher than that!!!!!!! That is a total of 26dB! How is this even possible? There is no way to correct for this.  The elevated bass I've shown before this, with only the bass below the XO of 200Hz, does not represent the total problem, but again, it was more straightforward to assemble the information and much easier for me to format the presentation. Once those results are coupled with measurable data above the XO the problem is even more evident. I'll have limited access to the Lounge for the next few days. |
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Post by marcl on Jul 16, 2021 9:18:51 GMT -5
Not so much a solution or workaround, as much as a further indication of the complexity of the problem .... Given that bass management content from small speakers is boosted, but the normal content from the speaker playing the bass management content is not boosted; and given that the Bass Control affects only large speakers full range and not small speaker bass; and with Center Sub=LFE and Fronts=Large, bass management goes to the Fronts .... I hypothesized the following: - Create a target curve in Dirac for the Fronts with a -5db slope below 100Hz
- Boost the Bass Control +5db
- Result should be: small speaker bass is pulled down to flat response by the Dirac curve applied to the large Fronts; large Front speaker bass is initially pulled down -5db below 100Hz also; Large Front speaker bass is pulled back up to flat by the +5db Bass Control boost
And ... it basically worked. Ignore the weird dip in the left Front below 30Hz. That was in this last calibration and I have to track that down. But with a little tweaking I got all the speakers to basically follow the same response curve and LFE is in the +10db range. I just had to set the Bass Control to +7db and move a couple crossover frequencies up a bit. And BTW, this is with Surround 7.1 audio mode.  This is not a perfect fix and it only works for Center Sub=LFE and Fronts=Large. It should work with Dirac or User PEQ for the target curve modification. Note: Bass Control setting does not persist after a reboot even in VRO mode. |
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Post by muslhead on Jul 19, 2021 15:41:55 GMT -5
I just heard back from Keith, Emotiva's technical guru who stated
"What's happening is that, with multiple subs, the bass should be SPLIT between them, and it is being routed fully to each. We are looking into when and why this is happening and I expect it to be taken care of shortly."
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Post by marcl on Jul 19, 2021 15:50:09 GMT -5
I just heard back from Keith, Emotiva's technical guru who stated "What's happening is that, with multiple subs, the bass should be SPLIT between them, and it is being routed fully to each. We are looking into when and why this is happening and I expect it to be taken care of shortly." This may be happening with multiple subs, and it is definitely happening if bass management is going to large fronts and not subs. But there is also a boost in the small speaker bass that was introduced in 2.2 and persists in 2.3. ttocs ... this happens even with one sub doing BM, correct? |
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Post by geebo on Jul 19, 2021 16:02:02 GMT -5
I just heard back from Keith, Emotiva's technical guru who stated "What's happening is that, with multiple subs, the bass should be SPLIT between them, and it is being routed fully to each. We are looking into when and why this is happening and I expect it to be taken care of shortly." This may be happening with multiple subs, and it is definitely happening if bass management is going to large fronts and not subs. But there is also a boost in the small speaker bass that was introduced in 2.2 and persists in 2.3. ttocs ... this happens even with one sub doing BM, correct? It happens for me whether I'm using my two sub preset (Left Mono + LFE only) or my one sub preset. I have all my other speakers set to small. |
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Post by marcl on Jul 19, 2021 16:07:02 GMT -5
This may be happening with multiple subs, and it is definitely happening if bass management is going to large fronts and not subs. But there is also a boost in the small speaker bass that was introduced in 2.2 and persists in 2.3. ttocs ... this happens even with one sub doing BM, correct? It happens for me whether I'm using my two sub preset (Left Mono + LFE only) or my one sub preset. I have all my other speakers set to small. I wish we could get ttocs, me, you and a couple others on a Zoom with Keith, Lonnie and Damon and talk this through. I have never seen a response that gives me confidence that they understand the problem. We could literally run a REW sweep in real time and show them. |
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Post by ttocs on Jul 19, 2021 17:22:08 GMT -5
I just heard back from Keith, Emotiva's technical guru who stated "What's happening is that, with multiple subs, the bass should be SPLIT between them, and it is being routed fully to each. We are looking into when and why this is happening and I expect it to be taken care of shortly." This may be happening with multiple subs, and it is definitely happening if bass management is going to large fronts and not subs. But there is also a boost in the small speaker bass that was introduced in 2.2 and persists in 2.3. ttocs ... this happens even with one sub doing BM, correct? This is one, single, solitary, subwoofer.  I knew this would come up as an argument for trying to refute something, so I purposely turned off all but one subwoofer, re-leveled everything, and ran the tests. This is also why I'm doing the current testing WITHOUT DIRAC so Emo CANNOT complain about an overlaying component messing with the results. I'm really getting very tired of Emotiva IGNORING this problem. lonnie , please get your staff off their buttoxes and fix this, or at least acknowledge the issue. Do I sound annoyed, YES, because we are being ignored on this issue. |
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Post by muslhead on Jul 19, 2021 18:25:30 GMT -5
I did give them the link to this thread, ttocs and marcl names, and suggested they read what was done as it provided a bunch of data that, if used, could help expedite a fix. As a minimum, put some boundaries around the problem.
Keith stated they have only experienced (been reported) a _6db boost after i told them some of the readings ttocs found. Sounds like they know of the problem but have yet to do much testing or recreate the problem
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Post by ttocs on Jul 19, 2021 19:02:50 GMT -5
I did give them the link to this thread, ttocs and marcl names, and suggested they read what was done as it provided a bunch of data that, if used, could help expedite a fix. As a minimum, put some boundaries around the problem. Keith stated they have only experienced (been reported) a _6db boost after i told them some of the readings ttocs found. Sounds like they know of the problem but have yet to do much testing or recreate the problem Thanks for this info. Here's some history. I like history, it's how we learn to not repeat it when history exposes failure. I reported this issue about 10 months ago. I gave them lots of data about it last winter. I've spoken to Damon on the phone and was assured that it would be dealt with in the future. All good so far. FW2.0 was livable. FW2.3 is not. FW2.3 has improvements I'd like to keep experiencing, but when the sound field switches to one that I'm not setup for, the bass can be disturbingly aggressive. I used to enjoy using All Stereo for unattended listening of Pandora, but not anymore with the exorbitant amount of bass it carries. I setup my Movie Night! events ahead of show time with knowledge of the audio modes that will be in play for the evening so there are no surprises. Something has changed with 2.3. I don't know enough about it yet to know which direction I should go, but I'm probably going to have to directly compare the FW versions again to prove these play a role in this issue. I've got a play book for doing this as I've done this before, but it's the time needed to do it all in the same session so everything is as consistent as possible. Too many variables to contend with if done on different days. |
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Post by jbrunwa on Jul 19, 2021 21:36:22 GMT -5
I did give them the link to this thread, ttocs and marcl names, and suggested they read what was done as it provided a bunch of data that, if used, could help expedite a fix. As a minimum, put some boundaries around the problem. Keith stated they have only experienced (been reported) a _6db boost after i told them some of the readings ttocs found. Sounds like they know of the problem but have yet to do much testing or recreate the problem Thanks for this info. Here's some history. I like history, it's how we learn to not repeat it when history exposes failure. I reported this issue about 10 months ago. I gave them lots of data about it last winter. I've spoken to Damon on the phone and was assured that it would be dealt with in the future. All good so far. FW2.0 was livable. FW2.3 is not. FW2.3 has improvements I'd like to keep experiencing, but when the sound field switches to one that I'm not setup for, the bass can be disturbingly aggressive. I used to enjoy using All Stereo for unattended listening of Pandora, but not anymore with the exorbitant amount of bass it carries. I setup my Movie Night! events ahead of show time with knowledge of the audio modes that will be in play for the evening so there are no surprises. Something has changed with 2.3. I don't know enough about it yet to know which direction I should go, but I'm probably going to have to directly compare the FW versions again to prove these play a role in this issue. I've got a play book for doing this as I've done this before, but it's the time needed to do it all in the same session so everything is as consistent as possible. Too many variables to contend with if done on different days. I appreciate all your dedication, but it really should be up to Emotiva to define how small bass management should work, identify ALL use case scenarios that should be tested, and what fixes should be made. We should all just be enjoying music and video, or building out our systems. It makes sense to me that bass trim should adjust all bass levels. But if that’s not how it’s supposed to work, it would be really helpful to have document that explains the nuances of bass management and how it is supposed to work. If it’s any consolation they are not alone, as Dirac seems to have been having their own bass control issues. |
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) ... in terms of signal flow, where is the BM added to my Large Fronts such that the Bass Control affects the L/R channels and not the BM?
