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Post by marcl on Jul 28, 2021 15:55:44 GMT -5
Starting this thread to specifically discuss use of the Portrait Displays Calman Home Autocal software. And of course to hear others' experiences with any other calibration products or services. I just bought the LG version with a one year license for $145. It supports a number of colorimeters, and I happen to already have a SpyderX. Recent LG TV's have the pattern generator built in, so there's no other hardware or software to buy. Since I've heard professional calibration costs $250 or more, I figured I could do it once now, then check in a year before the license runs out to see if there's any change. I had a number of issues setting up and running the Calman software: - Would not connect to TV when installed on Win10 desk PC; Worked when installed on laptop configured identical to desktop
- Initially recognized SpyderX colorimeter with 15ft USB extension, but then failed when I started calibration. Had to remove extension and move closer to TV
- SpyderX is supported, but there is no information on which of its four meter modes to use. All tutotials assume the XRite colorimeter in XYZ mode.
- Several crashes while doing HDR calibration with "Exception: Websocket connection is closed." error. Seemed to be fixed by connecting both TV and laptop wired to the network instead of wifi. Application had to be closed in Task Manager, then TV power had to be cycled to get out of calibration mode
- Last step of HDR calibration is to set Luminance level and adjust three values, then upload Tone Map. Got to this stage twice, and both times the application crashed and closed while saving the Tone Map
- Tutorial web pages on Portrait Displays web site are out of date compared to current software
- Portrait Displays YouTube tutorials by Tyler Pruitt are accurate and helpful. But you must watch starting with SDR to get some key points, like running the separately downloaded video for the mode being calibrated in order to keep the TV in in the proper mode throughout the calibration
- Those videos have to be running through the calibration or it will fail with an error. The SDR video is a 10hr loop but the HDR and Dolby Vision are only one hour. So I put them on repeat, and also restarted them each time in the process that I had to manually click Next to go to the next step
- Even though you select SDR, HDR or Dolby Vision at the start of each calibration, there are places where you have to look to select Re.709 for SDR or BT2020 for HDR and Dolby Vision
- You also have to be sure to find at least two places where the Picture Mode to be calibrated is selected. For example you will typically calibrate SDR Cinema, HDR Cinema and Dolby Vision Cinema. But you could do additional calibrations for other available Modes, and not all Modes can be calibrated
Having weathered all of that, I believe I eventually got very good calibrations with at least a factor of 10 improvement in measurement errors. Here are the SDR and HDR results. The HDR measurement was actually taken after calibration (after a crash) but looks to have been saved. Unfortunately the pre-cal measurement was lost. I've included a pre-cal measurement of HDR Cinema Home which was similar to HDR Cinema. It is not possible to measure pre and post for Dolby Vision due to the way patterns are inserted in the signal flow.    Interested in anyone else's experience and comments. |
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Post by ttocs on Jul 28, 2021 19:23:03 GMT -5
Can any panel tv be calibrated?
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Post by marcl on Jul 28, 2021 19:47:11 GMT -5
Can any panel tv be calibrated? They have products for LG, Samsung, Sony and Panasonic. But there are differences in how they work. License is for one brand. Professional products cost a ton more. store.portrait.com/consumer-software.html |
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Post by ttocs on Jul 28, 2021 20:12:12 GMT -5
For Sony, it looks like a pattern generator is required hardware.  Is calibration something one would benefit from even in a mixed use room which get very bright in daytime? |
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Post by marcl on Jul 28, 2021 20:49:38 GMT -5
For Sony, it looks like a pattern generator is required hardware. Is calibration something one would benefit from even in a mixed use room which get very bright in daytime? Yes, but I think one choice is software for not a lot of money. I can't remember which ... have to go down the list. |
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Jul 28, 2021 23:39:00 GMT -5
For Sony, it looks like a pattern generator is required hardware. Is calibration something one would benefit from even in a mixed use room which get very bright in daytime? When my TVs were calibrated via Calman certified tech I received two settings, one for a bright room and another for a dark room. I just need to select which setting I need, bright or dark. I’m pretty sure those that are doing their own calibrations can do the same. Its just time and learning the process and having the proper tools to get a great picture. I’m also sure one can get a damn good picture without spending a ton of money for the proper tools. I’ve done a calibration with good results just not great. YMMV 🤔🤣 |
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Post by marcl on Jul 29, 2021 7:25:29 GMT -5
A little further explanation about how Calman Home works.
First and foremost, it's automated. You set up a couple parameters but all the actual calibration is done with the software reading the screen and iterating through patterns and adjustments. It uses adjustments that you can't get to unless you have the access code/procedure to get to the internal service menus. You never actually see anything but the patterns on the TV screen and the results on the computer.
As for setting up multiple calibrations, for SDR calibration there is one parameter you can set, the target Luminance. For a dark room you would set it to 100 nits and for a bright room 200nits, or 150nits for mixed use. So you could do separate dark and bright calibrations and save them to different Picture modes. But all the rest of the grayscale and color calibration would be identical.
For HDR and Dolby Vision there aren't any parameters to set. The HDR/Dolby Vision processing takes care of everything. But of course with all three you can tweak the OLRD backlight, Contrast, Brightness, Color, Tint and Sharpness of each Picture Mode to taste.
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Jul 29, 2021 7:28:22 GMT -5
I have not gone down the Calman hole yet. I do have most of the blu-ray calibration discs and they have worked well for me. They are also educational. Once you know how to set what you can set without additional hardware/software, you can get an excellent picture.
Not as good as a real full calibration, but still an excellent picture.
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Post by ttocs on Jul 29, 2021 7:40:30 GMT -5
You never actually see anything but the patterns on the TV screen and the results on the computer. So is the colorimeter against one spot on the screen? If so, then the system is relying on that spot to be an "average" of the total panel, correct? |
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Post by marcl on Jul 29, 2021 8:08:08 GMT -5
You never actually see anything but the patterns on the TV screen and the results on the computer. So is the colorimeter against one spot on the screen? If so, then the system is relying on that spot to be an "average" of the total panel, correct? Yes, dead center. And the pattern is a 10% rectangular window. The neutral gray video for the particular mode is playing in the background and the software switches to it between measurements. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jul 29, 2021 8:26:10 GMT -5
I haven't used the home version yet - but I've been calibrating my computer monitors for years - with various brands of calibrators. This is something that many people have been doing for their computer monitors for years... Although modern high-quality monitors are so good "out of the factory" it often isn't necessary lately...
The colorimeter itself is about the size of a mouse. It either attaches directly to the screen with suction cups or sits against it (hanging down in front from a wire or attached with rubber bands). In general you are not asked to move it during the calibration.
The calibration process corrects the relationship between "what goes in and what comes out". The system feeds a series of colors to the screen, measures the results, and enters corrections into the color look-up table. (Computers actually have a calibration file, much like a microphone calibration file, which can be loaded and edited... on consumer TV sets this is hidden internally.)
In any case, the measurements are taken at one location, and the display is assumed to be able to deliver consistent color across its surface. One of the things that differentiates "better quality TVs and displays" is their ability to deliver consistent colors across the entire screen.
In general, monitors do not have the ability to individually adjust the colors in specific areas of the screen. (If there are issues like color bleed on the edges, or inconsistent back-lighting, the calibration would not be able to address them individually.) Likewise, since modern TV displays use "fixed hardware pixels", there is no longer a need for any sort of "focus adjustment". (On old CRTs the focus of the electron beam actually had to be adjusted at various points on the screen; with modern displays each pixel is separate and is addressed individually.)
Note that old CRT type displays had all sorts of issues like that... where the brightness or color would be inconsistent across the area of the screen. With CRT monitors there is also usually some sort of interaction between the colors (for example the amount of red at a given point may vary depending on the amount of green). Because of this, even if you adjust each color separately, they can still interact in unexpected ways. (Better quality CRT monitors have less of these sorts of variations... and the color table in a computer can correct them separately - to a degree.)
With modern solid state displays this is NOT the case at all. (Internally there is literally a table that says "when a red value of 35 comes in - light the pixel with x amount of power".)
The amounts of red, green, and blue are each adjusted separately and, since they don't interact, that means they all sum correctly in any combination.
Early LCD displays had various issues where the color would appear inconsistent and vary with viewing angle.
This was due to the way the display technology itself worked and couldn't really be "fixed" by calibration. With those monitors, the calibrator measures "head-on", and the viewer is expected to be viewing from directly in front of the monitor.
(The limitation is that the colors become incorrect for viewers sitting too far to the sides... )
You never actually see anything but the patterns on the TV screen and the results on the computer. So is the colorimeter against one spot on the screen? If so, then the system is relying on that spot to be an "average" of the total panel, correct? |
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Post by marcl on Jul 29, 2021 8:53:46 GMT -5
I have been using the SpyderX to calibrate all the monitors in the house (5 desk monitors and 2 laptops) as well as to create a calibration profile for my Panasonic plasma TV that was connected (through XMC-2) to my computer. An older version of Spyder software supported TV and projector calibration in a manual process. I used that to calibrate the plasma TV using its user controls, and to get a profile for my portable Epson projector that I use for photography talks. I tried to calibrate the new LG OLED with the SpyderX and the software wouldn't work. It seems to complain about the TV not being supported. But in hindsight I'm also wondering if it didn't see the colorimeter because it was connected to an extension cable. Hmmmm ... I'll have to try again. But since I have HDR turned on in the Windows display settings for the output that goes to the LG, I see the HDR logo light up on the screen. LG has all of the Picture Modes calibrated differently. You can set all the user accessible manual settings the same and they will still look different. Calman says if you want to calibrate the Game mode you need an external pattern generator. LG also admits that NONE of the presets is set up for accurate color and grayscale! On their site I found a page that said for the most accurate picture, use the Cinema mode and then change OLED Backlight, Contrast and Brightness settings to X, Y, Z. The Calman software does not address sharpness or motion control. I found the Spears & Munsil disc very helpful in adjusting these, especially motion control. You can go the full gamut from no motion control to full on "soap opera effect", so I experimented and found comfortable settings that knock down the blur just enough (De-Judder 7, De Blur 3, OLED Motion Pro Medium). The Spears & Munsil also has a really good demo video in a dozen different combinations of color spaces and luminance values for Dolby Vision, HDR10, HDR10+ and SDR. They were carefully prepared to let you do a valid comparison. But after about 10 viewings the inspirational soundtrack gets stuck in your head!  |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jul 29, 2021 9:24:29 GMT -5
I've got to throw in an editorial comment here....
For decades it's been trivial to calibrate your computer monitor... You stick on the meter, run the software, and get a cup of coffee... Ten minutes later the software finishes and saves a calibration file on your computer... All you have to do is to "enable color management" on your computer... (And the software usually offers to do that for you too.)
Then, every time you start your computer, the calibration file for the monitor you're using is loaded into your graphic card. On the computer this correction is then applied to everything that is displayed.
(Many programs then offer a separate "color management" setting that enables more precise corrections and some more detailed choices.)
Since every smart TV includes a computer this functionality could be added to any smart TV quite easily (in an App). The colorimeter hardware itself is quite economical.
It's nice to see that TV manufacturers have finally come around to this point of view.
Unfortunately HDR has made the situation more complicated...
And, thanks to "intelligent zone lighting", on some TVs we're back to having the color in one area being able to affect the color in another. (If you're going to calibrate an older monitor you're better off turning OFF all the fancy variable back lighting options...)
I have been using the SpyderX to calibrate all the monitors in the house (5 desk monitors and 2 laptops) as well as to create a calibration profile for my Panasonic plasma TV that was connected (through XMC-2) to my computer. An older version of Spyder software supported TV and projector calibration in a manual process. I used that to calibrate the plasma TV using its user controls, and to get a profile for my portable Epson projector that I use for photography talks. I tried to calibrate the new LG OLED with the SpyderX and the software wouldn't work. It seems to complain about the TV not being supported. But in hindsight I'm also wondering if it didn't see the colorimeter because it was connected to an extension cable. Hmmmm ... I'll have to try again. But since I have HDR turned on in the Windows display settings for the output that goes to the LG, I see the HDR logo light up on the screen. LG has all of the Picture Modes calibrated differently. You can set all the user accessible manual settings the same and they will still look different. Calman says if you want to calibrate the Game mode you need an external pattern generator. LG also admits that NONE of the presets is set up for accurate color and grayscale! On their site I found a page that said for the most accurate picture, use the Cinema mode and then change OLED Backlight, Contrast and Brightness settings to X, Y, Z. The Calman software does not address sharpness or motion control. I found the Spears & Munsil disc very helpful in adjusting these, especially motion control. You can go the full gamut from no motion control to full on "soap opera effect", so I experimented and found comfortable settings that knock down the blur just enough (De-Judder 7, De Blur 3, OLED Motion Pro Medium). The Spears & Munsil also has a really good demo video in a dozen different combinations of color spaces and luminance values for Dolby Vision, HDR10, HDR10+ and SDR. They were carefully prepared to let you do a valid comparison. But after about 10 viewings the inspirational soundtrack gets stuck in your head! |
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Post by 405x5 on Jul 29, 2021 9:30:41 GMT -5
I’m roughly 11 years into utilizing flat screens for home use.
Between manual predetermined calibration settings and manual adjustments I’ve never even contemplated the need (though I can appreciate) such a thing.
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Post by 405x5 on Jul 29, 2021 9:34:05 GMT -5
I've got to throw in an editorial comment here....
For decades it's been trivial to calibrate your computer monitor... You stick on the meter, run the software, and get a cup of coffee... Ten minutes later the software finishes and saves a calibration file on your computer... All you have to do is to "enable color management" on your computer... (And the software usually offers to do that for you too.)
Then, every time you start your computer, the calibration file for the monitor you're using is loaded into your graphic card. On the computer this correction is then applied to everything that is displayed.
(Many programs then offer a separate "color management" setting that enables more precise corrections and some more detailed choices.)
Since every smart TV includes a computer this functionality could be added to any smart TV quite easily (in an App). The colorimeter hardware itself is quite economical.
It's nice to see that TV manufacturers have finally come around to this point of view.
Unfortunately HDR has made the situation more complicated...
And, thanks to "intelligent zone lighting", on some TVs we're back to having the color in one area being able to affect the color in another. (If you're going to calibrate an older monitor you're better off turning OFF all the fancy variable back lighting options...)
I have been using the SpyderX to calibrate all the monitors in the house (5 desk monitors and 2 laptops) as well as to create a calibration profile for my Panasonic plasma TV that was connected (through XMC-2) to my computer. An older version of Spyder software supported TV and projector calibration in a manual process. I used that to calibrate the plasma TV using its user controls, and to get a profile for my portable Epson projector that I use for photography talks. I tried to calibrate the new LG OLED with the SpyderX and the software wouldn't work. It seems to complain about the TV not being supported. But in hindsight I'm also wondering if it didn't see the colorimeter because it was connected to an extension cable. Hmmmm ... I'll have to try again. But since I have HDR turned on in the Windows display settings for the output that goes to the LG, I see the HDR logo light up on the screen. LG has all of the Picture Modes calibrated differently. You can set all the user accessible manual settings the same and they will still look different. Calman says if you want to calibrate the Game mode you need an external pattern generator. LG also admits that NONE of the presets is set up for accurate color and grayscale! On their site I found a page that said for the most accurate picture, use the Cinema mode and then change OLED Backlight, Contrast and Brightness settings to X, Y, Z. The Calman software does not address sharpness or motion control. I found the Spears & Munsil disc very helpful in adjusting these, especially motion control. You can go the full gamut from no motion control to full on "soap opera effect", so I experimented and found comfortable settings that knock down the blur just enough (De-Judder 7, De Blur 3, OLED Motion Pro Medium). The Spears & Munsil also has a really good demo video in a dozen different combinations of color spaces and luminance values for Dolby Vision, HDR10, HDR10+ and SDR. They were carefully prepared to let you do a valid comparison. But after about 10 viewings the inspirational soundtrack gets stuck in your head! Yes to the work monitor where both critical thinking and viewing come into play. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jul 29, 2021 14:31:29 GMT -5
Monitors and TVs used to vary quite widely. And, as it turns out, our eyes and minds automatically compensate for white point in particular over a VERY wide range.
We tend to automatically see any "whitish" color that occupies a relatively large area as "white".
Often you wouldn't notice a considerable color tint... until you put two monitors side by side... at which point you noticed that they looked very different. (Try holding a few sheets of "92 white" typewriter paper next to a wall you thought was white.... you'll find that most home walls are really "off white".)
In the last few years, there have been major improvements in the display panel technology, and most of the manufacturing inconsistencies are now gone. The last monitor I purchased from Dell about a year ago came with a factory-issued calibration report - and out of the box it was as close to perfect as I could have hoped for.
If anything, if you see major differences today, they tend to be due to variations in "dynamic back lighting", or to excessive intentional differences between settings like "standard", "cinema", and "natural".
Likewise, if you prefer not to expend the effort to calibrate your TV, websites like RTings often have suggestions about the most accurate settings for various models.
(Because the hardware itself is now quite consistent, you are more adjusting to compensate for the manufacturer's preferences, so the recommended settings usually produce excellent results for a given brand and model of TV.)
I’m roughly 11 years into utilizing flat screens for home use. Between manual predetermined calibration settings and manual adjustments I’ve never even contemplated the need (though I can appreciate) such a thing. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jul 29, 2021 14:42:06 GMT -5
Unfortunately it all boils down to how much effort each manufacturer is willing to put into it... and whether they actually WANT to make it easy for you.
From a technical perspective those test patterns are merely images in a video signal. Which means they are no more difficult to include than the icons and index screens that go with apps. And so it would be trivial to create an app that produces and displays pretty much any test pattern you may want...
Someone just has to sit down and do it... So someone has to want to do it... Sony isn't going to make any money on this... unless there's enough demand to make it a useful product differentiator.
Therefore it's up to the manufacturers of colorimeters to convince them to offer the option... or to write the app for them... And it's up to you, the customer, to make sure they know you consider it an important feature, that will make you more likely to buy THEIR TV set next time...
The only really complex part is the actual colorimeter hardware device... These used to cost anywhere from several hundred to several thousand dollars... But they have recently dropped into the $100 range...
For Sony, it looks like a pattern generator is required hardware. Is calibration something one would benefit from even in a mixed use room which get very bright in daytime? |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jul 29, 2021 15:06:11 GMT -5
The answer to that depends on many different things.
A colorimeter is the optical equivalent of a sound level meter. The colorimeter "measures" a color and gives you that measurement as a color value (usually in RGB).
With a computer the entire process is integrated and run by the calibration software. The software displays the patterns on-screen, reads the results from the colorimeter for each, and then calculates the calibration/correction information. With computers this takes the form of a "monitor profile" and a "LUT" (lookup table) which is loaded into your computer's graphics card. (Computer calibration software even includes a little program that loads this automatically when you start the computer.)
However, for a TV that isn't receiving its images directly from a computer, the process is often more manual. Basically, you display a test signal, read the measurements on the colorimeter, and use the TV's adjustments to manually adjust the TV until the numbers are right. This process must then be repeated with many different test signals... So, for example, you display a box of color that is 40,0,0 (40 red, 0 green, 0 blue), then adjust the controls on the TV until that's what the meter reads. Now repeat that for box whose color is 50,0,0 and another box at 60,0,0 and one at 0,0,60 and so on. For 8 bit color red, green, and blue can each have values from 0 to 256.
Luckily, since the response curve of most screens is relatively smooth, you only need to "spot check" a few dozen levels in each color to get a pretty accurate calibration.
HOWEVER, how easily you can make precise manual adjustments, or whether you can make them at all, depends on the TV's manufacturer. (In order to get this right you're going to need far more precise adjustments than "Hue, Tint, and Contrast".)
(Often you need more precise adjustments... which may only be available with that "special technician code" for your TV.)
Of course, since a smart TV actually contains a computer, there's no reason why the same software can't be included as an app on your TV. And it looks like a few manufacturers are finally starting to do just that.
But, yes, if you purchase a colorimeter, and the accompanying software package that will enable you to use it to make "manual measurements", you can use it on any TV.
(But you are only going to be able to adjust the TV using whatever adjustments it provides you with.)
It is worth noting that the basic software that comes with some consumer color calibration kits may not allow you to take manual measurements.
Therefore, if you plan to make manual measurements, you should confirm that the included software supports that option.
(I had a very nice colorimeter once that could only take manual measurements if you purchased the "professional software version" - for $500 extra.)
Can any panel tv be calibrated? |
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