ttocs
Global Moderator 
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,154
|
Post by ttocs on Aug 8, 2021 15:19:39 GMT -5
OK so I spent a good amount of time testing the levels with a sound meter and this is what happened. When I swapped the center to the HC-1 and the right channel to the XPA 7 gen3 I immediately had to lower the right speaker (now attached to the XPA7 Gen3) by 1 to 1.5db. In summary it was at -1.5 to -2db and I had to bring it to -2.5 to -3db to get it to measure at 75db as it did when on the HC-1. The center channel when on the HC-1 had to be placed at 8.5 when it started on 8.0db on the XPA Gen3. This was odd to me as there was not much of a difference, however there was much more of a difference with the right front speaker. Not as much as I would have believed there would be. After awhile i swapped the right channel back to the HC-1 and had up it from the -2.5 to-3db back up to -1.5 to -2db to get it to measure 75db (all on medium tone). The center then had to go back to 8.0db to hit the 75db. Is this a situation where I may want to use a filter to try and get the level db down a bit more? One question I have is I was told by emotiva that due to the nature of the expressions that getting the 3 channel differential amp would probably not be as good as the HC-1's. I am wondering if this is actually true. My original plan was to go with the 3 channel differential and not the HC-1's. In doing this test I am not sure the HC-1's are the right fit? I am not giving up on them just yet, however a part of me wonders what it would be like if I returned them and picked up the XPA-DR3 Differential Reference™ Three-Channel Power Amplifier instead. Any thoughts on taking that route? Or do we believe that after all this it could be a physical challenge with my center channel and I may have to return it to get a new one? Honestly right now its not horrible as worst case and for any movie that may have subtle dialog or the FX overshadows dialog if I use the trim tone on the center the dialog can get even louder and clearer. Just trying to make sure I am making the right choices for the hardware I committed to. If that means trying a new amp I am cool with that. If I have to play with filters I can try that too. If this is just the way it is and you have to wait till your ready to spent 5K to 10K a monoblock to hear a difference then so be it I wait and save:) 1dB or so is a rounding error and not anything to be taken seriously. It's almost no difference at all. Sure, it's a difference, but nothing to make a judgement about. It's not a clear distinction like 4dB that might mean something. I can run Levels and get a 1/2dB difference just because it's 4 minutes later and maybe the house voltage is a little different. Basically what I'm saying is, it was interesting to find that either amp is good for either speaker when it's running just one speaker. Keep the HC-1 on the Expression. What I was interested in knowing is that the Focus works the same with both amps, which is why I suggested doing the test. Also, you get a better idea of other ways of testing things. I suspect that a reason why Emotiva didn't recommend getting the 3 channel amp for the Expressions is the same as why I believe the same, which is that they present a difficult load on amps and monos are a better fit. I would not suggest playing with much in the way of filters until you get very used to your "new" system. Dirac however, is something you might want to run soon. Dirac for movies is something I highly recommend, but if you haven't run it yet you should begin looking over the Dirac thread at the beginning. The Official Dirac Live Thread: Start w/1,2,3 🙋♂️ |
|
|
|
Post by omuracada on Aug 8, 2021 16:26:31 GMT -5
OK so I spent a good amount of time testing the levels with a sound meter and this is what happened. When I swapped the center to the HC-1 and the right channel to the XPA 7 gen3 I immediately had to lower the right speaker (now attached to the XPA7 Gen3) by 1 to 1.5db. In summary it was at -1.5 to -2db and I had to bring it to -2.5 to -3db to get it to measure at 75db as it did when on the HC-1. The center channel when on the HC-1 had to be placed at 8.5 when it started on 8.0db on the XPA Gen3. This was odd to me as there was not much of a difference, however there was much more of a difference with the right front speaker. Not as much as I would have believed there would be. After awhile i swapped the right channel back to the HC-1 and had up it from the -2.5 to-3db back up to -1.5 to -2db to get it to measure 75db (all on medium tone). The center then had to go back to 8.0db to hit the 75db. Is this a situation where I may want to use a filter to try and get the level db down a bit more? One question I have is I was told by emotiva that due to the nature of the expressions that getting the 3 channel differential amp would probably not be as good as the HC-1's. I am wondering if this is actually true. My original plan was to go with the 3 channel differential and not the HC-1's. In doing this test I am not sure the HC-1's are the right fit? I am not giving up on them just yet, however a part of me wonders what it would be like if I returned them and picked up the XPA-DR3 Differential Reference™ Three-Channel Power Amplifier instead. Any thoughts on taking that route? Or do we believe that after all this it could be a physical challenge with my center channel and I may have to return it to get a new one? Honestly right now its not horrible as worst case and for any movie that may have subtle dialog or the FX overshadows dialog if I use the trim tone on the center the dialog can get even louder and clearer. Just trying to make sure I am making the right choices for the hardware I committed to. If that means trying a new amp I am cool with that. If I have to play with filters I can try that too. If this is just the way it is and you have to wait till your ready to spent 5K to 10K a monoblock to hear a difference then so be it I wait and save:) 1dB or so is a rounding error and not anything to be taken seriously. It's almost no difference at all. Sure, it's a difference, but nothing to make a judgement about. It's not a clear distinction like 4dB that might mean something. I can run Levels and get a 1/2dB difference just because it's 4 minutes later and maybe the house voltage is a little different. Basically what I'm saying is, it was interesting to find that either amp is good for either speaker when it's running just one speaker. Keep the HC-1 on the Expression. What I was interested in knowing is that the Focus works the same with both amps, which is why I suggested doing the test. Also, you get a better idea of other ways of testing things. I suspect that a reason why Emotiva didn't recommend getting the 3 channel amp for the Expressions is the same as why I believe the same, which is that they present a difficult load on amps and monos are a better fit. I would not suggest playing with much in the way of filters until you get very used to your "new" system. Dirac however, is something you might want to run soon. Dirac for movies is something I highly recommend, but if you haven't run it yet you should begin looking over the Dirac thread at the beginning. The Official Dirac Live Thread: Start w/1,2,3 🙋♂️OK that sounds good and thanks for being a solid sounding board! I will keep the HC-1's for the expressions and may be look to nail down another one for the center at some point. I will look to run DIRAC next weekend as I am ready to take that On., I rad the manual and will give it a shot:) I was also thinking oof upgrading my XLR's and my speaker wire to MORROW AUDIO as they are having a sale right now. Was going to grab 3 of the M4 xlrs and the SP6 speaker wire for just the 3 fronts. Any thoughts on doing that? |
|
ttocs
Global Moderator
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,154
|
Post by ttocs on Aug 8, 2021 17:20:51 GMT -5
I'm not in the practice of discouraging others from buying what makes them happy. Buy good quality, period.
Emotiva has made some very good cables for very little money, and they seem like good quality to me. I believe there's not much magic in XLR cables.
I make my own cables. Speaker cables, and XLR and RCA terminated cables needed for my system. All I need are quality terminations, cable, and the time to solder. If I see a benefit to doing it any other way, I'll do it.
|
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,261
|
Post by KeithL on Aug 9, 2021 9:17:21 GMT -5
I think you're starting to get dangerously close to the rabbit hole represented by "analyzing the details to death".
The "levels app" in the processor can indeed help you compare the gain between various amplifiers...
However, in point of fact, the gain of any specific amplifier is an almost meaningless number.
While there are various engineering reasons for choosing a particular gain - the gain is actually set by a pair of fifty-cent resistors - and can be altered that easily.
In general all of our amplifiers will sound very much the same when run within their limits... (You don't need to worry amount stuff like "how gracefully an amplifier overloads" if you simply avoid overloading it.)
And, again in general, all of our amplifiers will run just fine, and well within their design limits, with most speakers...
However, certain speakers are not designed within normal design constraints, and pose what can be considered to be an unreasonable load to an amplifier.
And, in this particular situation, the HC-1 is overdesigned such that it can supply an unreasonable amount of current... Which may in fact enable it to do a bit better job of driving an unreasonable load without clipping the occasional peak...
NOTE, however, that what you're going to be looking for is that it won't be clipping that occasional peak... Which may result in a very subtle difference under certain very demanding conditions...
(And NOT that it's going to be playing a fraction of a dB more loudly under normal conditions.)
omuracada , while the 7 channel amp uses the same components as the HC-1 single channel amp, there is a distinction in the usage of them. First, the Expressions are very demanding speakers and using mono amps is the best way to feed them. Second, the 7 channel amp has different specs based upon how many channels are active, to the power will vary quite a bit and again, not the best for the Expressions. As I said to you elsewhere listen to music with just the two Expressions and HC-1 amps and see if any ear fatigue sets in. This is my favorite "test". If the amps and speakers love each other there will be no fatigue. The Focus however is different, not as demanding, and "can" remain on the 7 channel amp, but, how about just trying one of your HC-1 amps just to find out what happens? See if it is at all different than one Expression in Levels. I know I'm curious. With my tube amps vs Krell vs Emotiva XPA-200, I've compared them all just to see how they differ vs each other. The Levels app in the processor is one way to compare and it's easy to use. Gotcha, yes so far with 3 days of listening I get no Fatigue at solid volume levels and this is all in reference stereo mode. I am not a music guy and by doing this I am absolutely Loving listening to all kinds of music. Its like nothing I have ever experienced with music. I would say the HC-1's are doing the Job. I will head down now and switch center to the HC-1 and see what happens when I measure the levels. Will report back shortly. |
|
|
|
Post by omuracada on Aug 9, 2021 15:05:11 GMT -5
I think you're starting to get dangerously close to the rabbit hole represented by "analyzing the details to death".
The "levels app" in the processor can indeed help you compare the gain between various amplifiers...
However, in point of fact, the gain of any specific amplifier is an almost meaningless number.
While there are various engineering reasons for choosing a particular gain - the gain is actually set by a pair of fifty-cent resistors - and can be altered that easily.
In general all of our amplifiers will sound very much the same when run within their limits... (You don't need to worry amount stuff like "how gracefully an amplifier overloads" if you simply avoid overloading it.)
And, again in general, all of our amplifiers will run just fine, and well within their design limits, with most speakers...
However, certain speakers are not designed within normal design constraints, and pose what can be considered to be an unreasonable load to an amplifier.
And, in this particular situation, the HC-1 is overdesigned such that it can supply an unreasonable amount of current... Which may in fact enable it to do a bit better job of driving an unreasonable load without clipping the occasional peak...
NOTE, however, that what you're going to be looking for is that it won't be clipping that occasional peak... Which may result in a very subtle difference under certain very demanding conditions...
(And NOT that it's going to be playing a fraction of a dB more loudly under normal conditions.)
Gotcha, yes so far with 3 days of listening I get no Fatigue at solid volume levels and this is all in reference stereo mode. I am not a music guy and by doing this I am absolutely Loving listening to all kinds of music. Its like nothing I have ever experienced with music. I would say the HC-1's are doing the Job. I will head down now and switch center to the HC-1 and see what happens when I measure the levels. Will report back shortly. Thank you for chiming in. Your right I am getting paralysis by analysis as I was just concerned why I had to all of a sudden raise the tone trim on the center channel. As of now i am fine with the outcome of taking the suggestions of this topic. I will be purchasing another HC-1 this week as this way I can sleep at night knowing my three most important speakers are all using the same type of amp as well as the right amp for the type of soeaker they are. I will also run DIRAC this weekend for the first time and since I have a simple 5.1 system it should be a good learning opp. Prior to going 9.1.6. I have to say from the xmc2 to all the amps I have thus far, I am loving being apart of the emotiva family:) |
|
|
|
Post by omuracada on Aug 25, 2021 19:43:07 GMT -5
I wanted to follow up as after contacting Martin Logan they sent me a PCB board that I had to replace in the back of the focus and BOOOOOOM it worked! Its so F'ing crystal clear now:)
|
|
|
|
Post by omuracada on Jun 15, 2022 16:34:54 GMT -5
I feel horrible as I see I never posted my final outcome. Its been while so I do not remember the exact name of the device that needed to be replace, however ML sent what appeared to be a possible new board to replace and after my dealer made the replacement.... BOOM I got full sound back! Its been rocking an rolling ever since. Thanks a bunch for the help!
|
|
