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Post by everytuesday on Aug 24, 2021 15:15:28 GMT -5
I recently lost a couple HDMI ports due to an electrical surge in my Panasonic udp-9000 and one in my jvc nx7 projector, and one in my denon avr. I’ve been reading a lot about surge protection which I currently already have setup but somehow still lost those ports. When it comes to amps iv seen people say just plug em into the wall and unplug when lightening storms come. Others I’ve seen plug them into something like the Panamax M5400-PM. Wondering what emotiva says to do with theirs or what most people here do with their setups?
Any help and advice much appreciated!
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Post by ttocs on Aug 24, 2021 15:50:14 GMT -5
Some amp brands state to only plug directly into the wall outlet. Krell is one of those.
I haven't used a conditioner for most of my amps, but I do for the BasX amp that powers the surrounds and tops. Basically, I go direct to the wall with almost everything for two channel, and use the conditioners for everything else.
And when lightning is approaching is when things are unplugged, and when going out of town.
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Post by SteveH on Aug 24, 2021 20:31:15 GMT -5
And when lightning is approaching is when things are unplugged, and when going out of town. I have been living in South Florida for forty five years and this is routine for me too! |
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Post by DavidR on Aug 24, 2021 20:37:37 GMT -5
IIRC you need to use a device that will put out a sine wave otherwise forget it.
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Post by everytuesday on Aug 24, 2021 22:52:08 GMT -5
Some amp brands state to only plug directly into the wall outlet. Krell is one of those. Thanks so much for the help! I have one follow up question if I may. I only have one outlet where my rack is located, can I use just a regular power strip to plug in all 3 of my amps that will end up only taking one wall outlet plug? Will I be limited on the draw because of the power strip? Cheers! |
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Post by everytuesday on Aug 24, 2021 22:56:42 GMT -5
IIRC you need to use a device that will put out a square wave otherwise forget it.
Interesting, can you elaborate/educate me on why a square instead of sine? Thanks for the help! |
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Post by RichGuy on Aug 24, 2021 23:10:29 GMT -5
I auditioned a lot of power conditioners in my system to find one I liked and that sounded good, I found many that did not sound good and were definitely limiting the system, this was most noticeable in the bass and during peaks, some power sources were definitely not good. My favorite one that I really liked and made my system sound its very best was the Belkin Pure AV PF60. The PF60 is no longer made and even it has been through a lot of changes with earlier versions being much better than the later ones. Even though the model number was the same later versions downgraded several times over the years while it was available. But some power conditioners sound great in a system while other don't, also the same goes for power strips, surge protectors, etc. whatever your plugging into can affect your systems performance so my advice is to audition and compare. I am very happy my Belkin Pure AV PF60's, I have 2 of them in my system. They help my system sound its best, look good, add some extra security and many extra features that include surge, component isolation, noise filters, trigger controls and delay controls, monitoring, etc.
I use the PF60's two "High Current" outlets to plug in my XPA 2 and XPA 5 amps and they sound their best plugged in there.
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Post by ttocs on Aug 25, 2021 2:39:49 GMT -5
Some amp brands state to only plug directly into the wall outlet. Krell is one of those. Thanks so much for the help! I have one follow up question if I may. I only have one outlet where my rack is located, can I use just a regular power strip to plug in all 3 of my amps that will end up only taking one wall outlet plug? Will I be limited on the draw because of the power strip?Cheers! Need a little bit of info to more properly answer your question. What model amplifiers do you have? How many other devices are also using that one outlet? Is that outlet rated 15 Amps or 20 Amps? Some plug strips are rated for 10 Amps, some for 15 Amps, and some are rated as high as 20 Amps. What is yours rated at? Is there any possibility of access to more outlets? |
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Post by donh50 on Aug 25, 2021 8:20:15 GMT -5
You want a sine wave, not square wave, output...
I plug my amps into the wall but have whole-house surge and lightning protection (two different units added at the incoming electrical service box). We also have a lightning protector on the incoming cable line. Most inexpensive surge strips use sacrificial MOVs, devices that will usually handle a few small or one big surge then die. Better ones cost more, usually a lot more, and may include filtering as well. The filter circuitry is what can limit current flow so most suggest either not filtering the power amp outlets or buying a unit that is rated for high current demand.
If you have a direct, or even very close, lightning strike chances are nothing will help. That said, a tree was hit about 50' from our house, and we had no damage. The neighbor, about 50 yards away, lost a TV and something else (I forget what).
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,230 
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Post by novisnick on Aug 25, 2021 8:40:30 GMT -5
I auditioned a lot of power conditioners in my system to find one I liked and that sounded good, I found many that did not sound good and were definitely limiting the system, this was most noticeable in the bass and during peaks, some power sources were definitely not good. My favorite one that I really liked and made my system sound its very best was the Belkin Pure AV PF60. The PF60 is no longer made and even it has been through a lot of changes with earlier versions being much better than the later ones. Even though the model number was the same later versions downgraded several times over the years while it was available. But some power conditioners sound great in a system while other don't, also the same goes for power strips, surge protectors, etc. whatever your plugging into can affect your systems performance so my advice is to audition and compare. I am very happy my Belkin Pure AV PF60's, I have 2 of them in my system. They help my system sound its best, look good, add some extra security and many extra features that include surge, component isolation, noise filters, trigger controls and delay controls, monitoring, etc.
I use the PF60's two "High Current" outlets to plug in my XPA 2 and XPA 5 amps and they sound their best plugged in there.
I too have the early version of these and I agree completely! Couldn’t be happier. The original was overbuilt and sounded great. Later versions were downgraded in quality and the price went up. Owner of two, one for each system. |
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Post by DavidR on Aug 25, 2021 10:22:23 GMT -5
You want a sine wave, not square wave, output... I plug my amps into the wall but have whole-house surge and lightning protection (two different units added at the incoming electrical service box). We also have a lightning protector on the incoming cable line. Most inexpensive surge strips use sacrificial MOVs, devices that will usually handle a few small or one big surge then die. Better ones cost more, usually a lot more, and may include filtering as well. The filter circuitry is what can limit current flow so most suggest either not filtering the power amp outlets or buying a unit that is rated for high current demand. If you have a direct, or even very close, lightning strike chances are nothing will help. That said, a tree was hit about 50' from our house, and we had no damage. The neighbor, about 50 yards away, lost a TV and something else (I forget what). Correct. I had it backwards. Thank you. - either old brain syndrome or lack of coffee syndrome - I believe a lot of power conditioners produce the square wave and not a true sine wave.
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Post by everytuesday on Aug 25, 2021 14:47:11 GMT -5
What model amplifiers do you have? How many other devices are also using that one outlet? Is that outlet rated 15 Amps or 20 Amps? Some plug strips are rated for 10 Amps, some for 15 Amps, and some are rated as high as 20 Amps. What is yours rated at? Is there any possibility of access to more outlets? Appreciate the help! I the outlet is 20 amps. I think all the power surge and battery back up is all rated for 15 amps. I have another wall outlet but it is on the opposite wall. The utility room is a small rectangle basically. I'm gonna see how much a whole house surge protection is + see if the electrician can easily add another outlet next to the current outlet everything is plugged into. Here is a pic I drew up of how everything is connected right now:  Thanks! |
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Post by RichGuy on Aug 25, 2021 21:44:51 GMT -5
I believe a lot of power conditioners produce the square wave and not a true sine wave.
You're thinking of UPS systems (uninterrupted power supply systems) many UPS systems produce square wave. UPS battery backup systems are great for computers but they are horrible to use for music and home theater systems, usually they will have a very poor affect to sound quality. |
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Post by leonski on Aug 25, 2021 23:49:05 GMT -5
I have my pair of modest stereo amps plugged into a PSAudio Soloist on its exclusive 20 amp cirsuit. Soloist has noise reduction and surge protection.
The rest of my 'stuff' plugs in thru the Panamax. Low current devices....the dish receiver and PS3 plug in thru the Isolation Transformer of only 400va.
The GOOD NEWS for using an uninteruptible PS for your stereo? Won't hardly stay on long enough for you to notice how poorly it sounds. I'd skip it.
Good for computers since it gives you a small window for a 'soft landing'.....
My Panamax will shut off the outlets if voltage goes above 135 or below 95 VAC.....
EVERY? You need an additional exclusive outlet. Just try to make sure it is connected on the same side of the box as the outlet now serving the stereo.
I would personally get a 1000va Isolation transformer and plug in 500va to 500va worth of gear......on the old outlet, while the NEW outlet gets the amps....
WHole House is a decent idea. Not expensive, either.
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Post by ttocs on Aug 26, 2021 6:46:08 GMT -5
What model amplifiers do you have? How many other devices are also using that one outlet? Is that outlet rated 15 Amps or 20 Amps? Some plug strips are rated for 10 Amps, some for 15 Amps, and some are rated as high as 20 Amps. What is yours rated at? Is there any possibility of access to more outlets? Appreciate the help! I the outlet is 20 amps. I think all the power surge and battery back up is all rated for 15 amps. I have another wall outlet but it is on the opposite wall. The utility room is a small rectangle basically. I'm gonna see how much a whole house surge protection is + see if the electrician can easily add another outlet next to the current outlet everything is plugged into. Thanks! It looks like the XPA-5 would like to have that 20A all to itself, so if it were me, I'd skip plugging it into the Panamax. And, it would be a good idea to add more circuits if you expect to add more amps.  I like the idea of your network being on battery backup, and it looks like that's all that's on the backup. Like others have said, it's not so good for audio stuff, so the way you have it seems like a good idea. |
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Post by donh50 on Aug 26, 2021 10:23:26 GMT -5
Sine-wave UPS systems have gotten a lot cheaper (I have a couple in the house now, not on power amps). The cheaper ones do not put out a true square wave AFAIK but I certainly have not looked at them them all, nor all models. The APC, Belkin, Cyberpower, and Triplite UPS models I observed were putting out a stepped-sine wave (their terminology, the raw output does not look terribly sinusoidal to me) with filtering so, while not a good sine wave by any means, was not a pure square wave either. More a very distorted sine wave. However, as leonski said, my UPS's are so I can survive a short glitch and provide time to turn everything off cleanly if power is out for long. I do not run my system on the UPS for long periods, and it is not supplying power when normal AC line power is on, so no added noise. A power conditioner is not generally a UPS, though many UPS products include some measure of power conditioning. A surge protector does not necessarily provide conditioning (filtering), though again many do. It is the filter that limits current flow and makes some (perhaps many) unsuitable for power amplifiers. The dynamic current demands can be quite large. |
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Post by leonski on Aug 26, 2021 14:48:08 GMT -5
Stepped Sine Wave? Sounds like some kind of Sawtooth wave? In any event? Not stereo friendly.
We've been round and round about surge protection. I think we agreed that whole-house was good.
My point of use has saved me a couple times. I've been lucky, too. I was house-sitting out in Palm Springs
when a GIANT storm blew thru. and while it only lasted maybe 2 hours? OUT OF THE POOL and we had no
less than 3 lightning strikes within eye / ear range nothing major was damaged. We lost an old-school modem in a computer.
I've heard few fans of power conditioner / surge protectors for amps. My few personal data points tell me NOT to do it.
But the Soloist outlet works well with my amps, so i won't change that anytime soon.
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Post by donh50 on Aug 26, 2021 15:05:10 GMT -5
Stepped Sine Wave? Sounds like some kind of Sawtooth wave? In any event? Not stereo friendly. We've been round and round about surge protection. I think we agreed that whole-house was good. My point of use has saved me a couple times. I've been lucky, too. I was house-sitting out in Palm Springs when a GIANT storm blew thru. and while it only lasted maybe 2 hours? OUT OF THE POOL and we had no less than 3 lightning strikes within eye / ear range nothing major was damaged. We lost an old-school modem in a computer. I've heard few fans of power conditioner / surge protectors for amps. My few personal data points tell me NOT to do it. But the Soloist outlet works well with my amps, so i won't change that anytime soon. No, worse than a sawtooth, more like a pulsed waveform so not a pure square wave but similar, duty cycle adjusted to provide the right RMS voltage with lower switching loss than generating a pure sine wave, then depends on post-filtering. Edit: Here is an article showing it: blog.tripplite.com/pure-sine-wave-vs-modified-sine-wave-explainedThere are better and worse approximations, and filtering after, natch. Mine are only supplying power during an outage, whether during a brief outage or until our generator cuts on, so I don't really care. Or I turn everything off and unplug it. I have not heard a lot of noise when the UPS is running, power supplies should reject a ton of crud on the AC line, so probably not a big deal for a well-designed component anyway. The biggest issue is that high line distortion can cause things like transformers and motors to get hot. For years the only "true-sine" UPS I had was on the aquarium as I wanted to keep the fish alive and not burn out the air and filter pumps. That was when a good sine-wave UPS was around $1500. Now you can get one for maybe $200~$300 for a 1000~1500 VA unit so I have switched to those. |
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Post by leonski on Aug 26, 2021 17:05:02 GMT -5
Doesnt' or DIDN'T PSAudio do the same thing? Have a Power Amp set to produce a 60hz sine wave tone. Power your gear from it. Getting a couple hundred watts from such a setup MUST be trick, but some persons also swear by it.
For giggles? You could also adjust the freuquency. But to what end or effect, I do not know.
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Post by Priapulus on Aug 26, 2021 20:11:12 GMT -5
Everyone should start with a whole-house surge protector on the house breaker panel.
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