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Post by pallpoul on Aug 27, 2021 21:06:49 GMT -5
So I finally decided to rack mount my pair of XPA-1 Gen-2 amplifiers. I Got the ears from Emotiva and installed them. I got a 22 RU rack, so I can also mount along with the amps an XSP-1 Gen-2 and an ERC-4, and a DC-1 or PT-100 or XDA-2 Gen-2 (I have not decided on which one to use yet), along with a rack mounted power strip/surge protector. My question, is: how much space (in RU) should I keep these components apart for good ventilation ? Should I use : 1 RU ? 2 RU ? or a combination of both, and what is recommended for the amps mainly. I will be using vented plates to fill the void between components. Any advise on how far to space them (vertically) is appreciated.    |
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Post by leonski on Aug 27, 2021 21:38:10 GMT -5
Sort of depends on usage. At higher powers....which you should calibrate for ANYWAY, I'd use 2RU at least. 1RU under the bottom amp..... noctua.at/en/products/fanThs MAY still be the quietest fan available. Get a 12v PS and you can run several fans. I have a Mean Well LPS35-12. 35 watts which will drive half a dozen or MORE fans for your rack. Ignore cooling at your peril. Equipment life drops as a function of rise in tempreture. |
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Post by Ex_Vintage on Aug 27, 2021 21:50:41 GMT -5
Ignore cooling at your peril. Equipment life drops as a function of rise in tempreture. 1/2 the life for every 10 degrees C rise in temp.... |
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Post by novisnick on Aug 27, 2021 22:33:28 GMT -5
You may not have enough room for all of that gear and proper ventilation IMO. YOU MAY NOT WANT PASSIVE VENTILATION above your amps. As stated before, more proper air movement is the goal you wish to achieve. Im blowing air to the rear and using a push/pull set of fans to exhaust heat through the top. I can post pictures of my rack if you like but its not a 22 RU rack, its a 27 RU.
Leave out a Belkin & Furman and it’ll still be rather cozy. It’ll be close, just keep it cool.
Good luck and enjoy, love my Sanus rack system.
Have you already purchased your rack?
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Post by adaboy on Aug 27, 2021 22:56:55 GMT -5
 Good plan, this what I did with my media room setup. |
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Post by pallpoul on Aug 27, 2021 23:11:49 GMT -5
You may not have enough room for all of that gear and proper ventilation IMO. YOU MAY NOT WANT PASSIVE VENTILATION above your amps. As stated before, more proper air movement is the goal you wish to achieve. Im blowing air to the rear and using a push/pull set of fans to exhaust heat through the top. I can post pictures of my rack if you like but its not a 22 RU rack, its a 27 RU. Leave out a Belkin & Furman and it’ll still be rather cozy. It’ll be close, just keep it cool. Good luck and enjoy, love my Sanus rack system. Have you already purchased your rack? Yes and I started building it and filling it, so far on the bottom end still with the 2 xpa-1's. do I need to move them further up ?. I'll have plenty of room for the 2 xpa's the xsp-1, the erc-4 and the xda-2. Please see pic . I can still change stuff around, just started getting things in place. pic is not the clearest, amps look much better and no blemishes, just the foam on them.  |
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Post by leonski on Aug 27, 2021 23:20:44 GMT -5
Ignore cooling at your peril. Equipment life drops as a function of rise in tempreture. 1/2 the life for every 10 degrees C rise in temp.... I can tell by the picture the OP posted and the NON-response that this is a dead letter. He'll eventually decide on a fan system which will just blow hot air around. |
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Post by pallpoul on Aug 27, 2021 23:42:07 GMT -5
1/2 the life for every 10 degrees C rise in temp.... I can tell by the picture the OP posted and the NON-response that this is a dead letter. He'll eventually decide on a fan system which will just blow hot air around. Leonski, ty for your advise. I listen mainly at low to medium levels. My speakers are very efficient too. the question is, do i move the top amp further up? do people stack those amps if no rack is used? do they get extremely hot at low level? if i switch to class A versus A/B would the temperature rise be noticeable in my situation? ty |
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Post by leonski on Aug 28, 2021 2:04:02 GMT -5
TRUE class 'A'....and I'd just call these amps 'high bias A/B' will run a LOT hotter.
I'd suggest getting a Kill-A-Watt meter which will measure watts.....ALL of which will be converted to heat with no demand on the amp.
Measure in 4 cases......A or AB with no demand. And the same switch positions at 'modest' levels.
Speakers? 'Very Efficient'....and I'll assume you mean 'very sensitive' might be 95db 1 watt / 1 meter. Which is indeed pretty good at turning electricity into sound.
95db speakers are about 2% efficient. Sure sounds better when you quote sensitivity, doesn't it?
At that point I'd bring up not NEEDING that kind of power. And ask if you have a dedicated 20 amp service for the PAIR of amps?
If you tell me you don't use that power, I'd say you don't need those amps. Simple. A single 5 channel from the XP series? use 2 channels per speaker IF you
have provision for biamp wiring. Save the 5th channel for a sub or center channel speaker.....
Still and all? MORE air = better. Look at the post, above, from Ex-Vintage.
You might consider some scheme with fans blowing OUT at the top of the rack.....the back sealed and fans blowing IN at the bottom. Some kind of filter would be neat to keep
the dust / lint OUT which you'd have to clean monthly or so.....depending on pets / house dust and the rest.
Time to crash. Been a busy day.
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Post by pallpoul on Aug 28, 2021 7:37:53 GMT -5
Ty Leonski
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 28, 2021 11:50:38 GMT -5
TRUE class 'A'....and I'd just call these amps 'high bias A/B' will run a LOT hotter. … The XPA-1 Gen 2 does have what I would call a true Class A mode, by flipping a switch on the front panel they become a 60W Class A monoblock, plenty for efficient speakers. … but, to your point, that would only exacerbate the heat problem, and few have reported a Valhalla experience from flipping the switch, so, I’d consider minimizing use of the Class A mode. I personally hate fans and always hear them, so I designed my credenza with lots of ventilation and natural heat flow. That said many people use fans and that may be necessary to keep the equipment running comfortably, I have one of those handheld IR heat monitoring guns for keeping track of such things. |
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Post by leonski on Aug 28, 2021 14:23:21 GMT -5
TRUE class 'A'....and I'd just call these amps 'high bias A/B' will run a LOT hotter. … The XPA-1 Gen 2 does have what I would call a true Class A mode, by flipping a switch on the front panel they become a 60W Class A monoblock, plenty for efficient speakers. … but, to your point, that would only exacerbate the heat problem, and few have reported a Valhalla experience from flipping the switch, so, I’d consider minimizing use of the Class A mode. I personally hate fans and always hear them, so I designed my credenza with lots of ventilation and natural heat flow. That said many people use fans and that may be necessary to keep the equipment running comfortably, I have one of those handheld IR heat monitoring guns for keeping track of such things. Good Idea! Maybe I should make use of my FLIR IR Camera? It plugs into my phone. As for fan noise? Check out my link to NOCTUA fans. You can run the 12v fan on 9v, for example, and you will get a quieter fan though at lesser airflow. I have a MeanWell 12v / 36watt PS which would power a dozen fans and the additional monitoring circuitry for auto on/off.....I could build a regulated 9v PS from the 12v and work it that way. Virtually ALL our equipment in fab had fans. The Sputtering systems, in particular had a bank of 8"ers. And parts of the machine were even Water Cooled, too boot. But those FANS? Very loud. Look up 'A' amps and just check out the WEIGHT to POWER ratio. As heavy as the X amp is? Light to OK for the 'A' rating. The PASS XS150 is a FOUR CHASSIS design goin 234lb per channel.....2 pieces and also has OVER 100 output devices. I've seen these at a show and the Room was HOT. So HOT they had to shut 'em off for a while and give the AC a chance. I never DID hear 'em. Pass also makes a 300 watt version which requires a fork lift to move around. The reason I say Hi-Bias? Simple. While the amp is pretty close to 'A' it also transitions to A/B since the switch doesnt' limit output to the 'A' portion.....Even the Pass Labs XA30.5 (couple years out of production, now) was a SOLID 30x2 and the bias meter wouldn't twitch. But redline was nearly 6db higher.......around 120 @8 and much higher @4....... So that TOO may be considered a hi-bias design. The Pass meter? If it isn't moving? You are in 'A', pretty much. Only when th meter DROPS does tha mean a change to A/B........ |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 28, 2021 15:02:59 GMT -5
The XPA-1 Gen 2 does have what I would call a true Class A mode, by flipping a switch on the front panel they become a 60W Class A monoblock, plenty for efficient speakers. … but, to your point, that would only exacerbate the heat problem, and few have reported a Valhalla experience from flipping the switch, so, I’d consider minimizing use of the Class A mode. I personally hate fans and always hear them, so I designed my credenza with lots of ventilation and natural heat flow. That said many people use fans and that may be necessary to keep the equipment running comfortably, I have one of those handheld IR heat monitoring guns for keeping track of such things. Good Idea! Maybe I should make use of my FLIR IR Camera? It plugs into my phone. As for fan noise? Check out my link to NOCTUA fans. You can run the 12v fan on 9v, for example, and you will get a quieter fan though at lesser airflow. I have a MeanWell 12v / 36watt PS which would power a dozen fans and the additional monitoring circuitry for auto on/off.....I could build a regulated 9v PS from the 12v and work it that way. Virtually ALL our equipment in fab had fans. The Sputtering systems, in particular had a bank of 8"ers. And parts of the machine were even Water Cooled, too boot. But those FANS? Very loud. Look up 'A' amps and just check out the WEIGHT to POWER ratio. As heavy as the X amp is? Light to OK for the 'A' rating. The PASS XS150 is a FOUR CHASSIS design goin 234lb per channel.....2 pieces and also has OVER 100 output devices. I've seen these at a show and the Room was HOT. So HOT they had to shut 'em off for a while and give the AC a chance. I never DID hear 'em. Pass also makes a 300 watt version which requires a fork lift to move around. The reason I say Hi-Bias? Simple. While the amp is pretty close to 'A' it also transitions to A/B since the switch doesnt' limit output to the 'A' portion.....Even the Pass Labs XA30.5 (couple years out of production, now) was a SOLID 30x2 and the bias meter wouldn't twitch. But redline was nearly 6db higher.......around 120 @8 and much higher @4....... So that TOO may be considered a hi-bias design. The Pass meter? If it isn't moving? You are in 'A', pretty much. Only when th meter DROPS does tha mean a change to A/B........ Ok, we can pick nits, I’d say if it doesn’t leave Class A under normal use that’s good enough for me, but I understand wanting to differentiate for the purist. As for fans, don’t want them, don’t need them, spent a whole summer sweating away with saws and routers to avoid them, but probably good recommendations for those who do. I’ve had some of Nelson’s Dynamic Bias Class-A amps (Threshold), they were heavy enough though ‘only’ had 36 outputs per channel. I’m done with heavy amps too. |
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Post by leonski on Aug 28, 2021 15:20:01 GMT -5
I hear 'ya on heavy amps. Like I need to wear a Hernia Belt to move one, right?
And Yes.....overall I'd agree that what I call 'ingenious design' will beat brute force most of the time.
for the OP? He is going to put too much heat producting stuff in one enclosure. I see it coming. And withotu a thought as to
IF he really needs 600 watts each for what he stipulates are 'efficient speakers'.....To me, that doesnt' sound like a 'system'.
But IF he goes ahead? Fans may save him. And those I recommend are of an ingenious blade design and about the quietest you can get.
I had a windows computer a LONG time ago. I built it with a Lian Li case which had Multiple fans. Add the PS fan, the CPU fan (copper heat sink......cost a bundle) and whatever
else and it sounded like a Helicopter landing on the roof. And needed cleaning out about every 6 weeks. Even the INPUT fans on the case front/ bottom had FILTERS which clogged.
One last thing about Class 'A'. I'm not certain it is a brick wall, but rather kind of a grey area between 'definitely' and definitely NOT'......So I'm not going to obsess about it. Even my Parasounds are
considered high bias. For my A23? Maybe the first 3 to 5 watts in 'A' than sliding to A/B. the more poweerful A21 (and the PLUS versions of each) have more 'A' power. TheJC-1 is a monster and very $$$
A buddy of mine has Magnepan 20s. PRE 'Point One' series. WOW. I don't know what his current setup is for amps, but at one point? EMO on the bass end. A Marchand active crossover and some other goodies.
All I KNOW? Sounded terrific. Magnepan Ribbon is world class.
Pass has PATENTS concerning Threshold Amps. I know the Stasis feature was used by Nakamichi and maybe others?
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Post by pallpoul on Aug 28, 2021 16:24:50 GMT -5
Finished rack.  I ran the T2+'s, with this rack. Wow....I thought the XPA-2 Gen 3 was good for them... How wrong I was, I discovered. The XPA-1 Gen-2 just have an amazing control over the speakers...simply amazing. I ran them for 2 hours, at loud volume and felt the amps, and they felt barely warm,...Not a sweat !! I won't be adding any extra vents. Class A, sounds amazing, and barely warm.. I wonder why Emotiva stopped making those amps. |
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Post by pallpoul on Aug 28, 2021 19:20:44 GMT -5
I was wondering if bi-wiring the xpa-1 gen-2's to the T2+'s would make a difference in sound quality ?. Any opinions are appreciated.
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Post by leonski on Aug 28, 2021 20:36:45 GMT -5
All the frequecies will be present right UP TO the crossover.
It is possible that were you to spend an absolute bundle on Top Wire, you MIGHT hear an improvement.
Might be the better wire? MIght be the Biwire?
You could experiment for Cheap using lamp cord at first. ??
I find the 'science' explanations pretty weak.
If you really want to help? Biamp using an ACTIVE crossover and one amplifier per way....per speaker.
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Post by pallpoul on Aug 28, 2021 21:13:52 GMT -5
All the frequecies will be present right UP TO the crossover. It is possible that were you to spend an absolute bundle on Top Wire, you MIGHT hear an improvement. Might be the better wire? MIght be the Biwire? You could experiment for Cheap using lamp cord at first. ?? I find the 'science' explanations pretty weak. If you really want to help? Biamp using an ACTIVE crossover and one amplifier per way....per speaker. I have to say, I was only wondering about the bi-wiring, but I truly feel the sound is amazing the way it is. I have not listened to my T2+'s in a long, long time. I had it powered by the xpa-2gen-3, and although it could get loud, I couldn't help finding it not angaging,...so I've been using my SET amp with my La Scalla II's. These mono-blocks brought the T2+'s back to life, like I've never heard them before. They are engaging, musical, and warm and clear. The ERC-4 CDP may have something to do with it, and the XSP-1 Gen-2,... Who knows, all I am saying is the synergy in this system is through the roof. I know it is an amazing "stack". I recently tried the PSA M 700 mono-blocks with their matching GCD DAC/PREAMP and in comparison I found MY "stack" sounding much better. I allowed for vented space, 2RU above each amp, and that I feel keeps them from overheating. I am using a 10 gauge speakers wires, Blue jeans Cables, I feel they are more then adequate, and also not the cheapest. As for bi-amping, I honestly don't feel my poor back can take yet another rack construction.  |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 28, 2021 21:26:47 GMT -5
I was wondering if bi-wiring the xpa-1 gen-2's to the T2+'s would make a difference in sound quality ?. Any opinions are appreciated. I bi-wire for 1, no 2, ok 3 reasons. First, I use Canare 4S11 speaker cable which has 4 x 14AWG wires, that make it simple to run a single 11AWG run, a bi-wire 14 run, or a bi-amp 14 run. Second, it’s easier to put a single banana plug on each wire than stuff two wires in a single plug (which I still must do on one end for bi-wire). Third, I don’t like the B&W jumpers and think the bi-wire connection on the back of the speaker looks much cleaner than the jumpers (that’s the main reason😎) Fourth, because I can (bonus!). You’ll notice none of them say it sounds better, although it’s been so long since I haven’t done it, maybe it does sound better. |
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Post by pallpoul on Aug 28, 2021 21:46:47 GMT -5
You think a bi-wire 14 gauge run, like you have, maybe better then a single 10 gauge run? the xpa-1gen2 has 4 wire inputs, so i'll have 4 banana plugs on the mono-block, and 4 banana plugs on the speaker.  |
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