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Post by audiosyndrome on Aug 28, 2021 21:52:22 GMT -5
All the frequecies will be present right UP TO the crossover. It is possible that were you to spend an absolute bundle on Top Wire, you MIGHT hear an improvement. Might be the better wire? MIght be the Biwire? You could experiment for Cheap using lamp cord at first. ?? I find the 'science' explanations pretty weak. If you really want to help? Biamp using an ACTIVE crossover and one amplifier per way....per speaker. Not correct. Each wire conducts a different range of frequencies. Take a simple example; a two way with first order crossovers. The capacitor in series with the tweeter allows high frequencies to pass but NOT low frequencies. Conversely, the inductor in series with the woofer allows low frequencies to pass but NOT high frequencies. Thus different frequencies in each wire. I triwired my Hyperion 938Ws. 😂 And proper biwiring requires the two wires to be separated by an inch or two to prevent the magneltic field produced by each wire from affecting the other wire. Russ |
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Post by leonski on Aug 28, 2021 23:11:35 GMT -5
All the frequecies will be present right UP TO the crossover. It is possible that were you to spend an absolute bundle on Top Wire, you MIGHT hear an improvement. Might be the better wire? MIght be the Biwire? You could experiment for Cheap using lamp cord at first. ?? I find the 'science' explanations pretty weak. If you really want to help? Biamp using an ACTIVE crossover and one amplifier per way....per speaker. Not correct. Each wire conducts a different range of frequencies. Take a simple example; a two way with first order crossovers. The capacitor in series with the tweeter allows high frequencies to pass but NOT low frequencies. Conversely, the inductor in series with the woofer allows low frequencies to pass but NOT high frequencies. Thus different frequencies in each wire. I triwired my Hyperion 938Ws. 😂 And proper biwiring requires the two wires to be separated by an inch or two to prevent the magneltic field produced by each wire from affecting the other wire. Russ Sorry, Russ.....the 'frequencies' have NO WAY of knowing what is coming and all are present right UP TO the selection by the crossover...... Here is a little reading material. sound-au.com/bi-amp.htmAnd while it talks about biamping, you will be able to get some good info out of it......Elliot Sound Products is a VERY good source of information with many articles. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 28, 2021 23:19:34 GMT -5
You think a bi-wire 14 gauge run, like you have, maybe better then a single 10 gauge run? the xpa-1gen2 has 4 wire inputs, so i'll have 4 banana plugs on the mono-block, and 4 banana plugs on the speaker. Most people would say (connections being equal) that you have less resistance with what you have now, and that’s what’s most important, but at some point that becomes insignificant. I’d say if you have all the important bases covered and your just looking for a tweak, go fo it, but don’t expect much more than … (see #3 above), so might as well get another run of #10, some techflex, shrink tube, maybe cable pants (if they make pants that big), and make it look good too.  |
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Post by audiosyndrome on Aug 29, 2021 9:17:00 GMT -5
Not correct. Each wire conducts a different range of frequencies. Take a simple example; a two way with first order crossovers. The capacitor in series with the tweeter allows high frequencies to pass but NOT low frequencies. Conversely, the inductor in series with the woofer allows low frequencies to pass but NOT high frequencies. Thus different frequencies in each wire. I triwired my Hyperion 938Ws. 😂 And proper biwiring requires the two wires to be separated by an inch or two to prevent the magneltic field produced by each wire from affecting the other wire. Russ Sorry, Russ.....the 'frequencies' have NO WAY of knowing what is coming and all are present right UP TO the selection by the crossover...... Here is a little reading material. sound-au.com/bi-amp.htmAnd while it talks about biamping, you will be able to get some good info out of it......Elliot Sound Products is a VERY good source of information with many articles. Sorry, you’re wrong again. Going back to my simple example. If the frequency is zero hertz current flows in the (inductor) woofer leg but no current flows in the (capacitor) tweeter leg. Conversely, if the frequency is say 100 KHz current flows in the tweeter leg but no current flows in the woofer leg. Or to say it another way, the inductor is a short circuit to DC and an open circuit to high frequencies. The capacitor is a short circuit to high frequencies but an open circuit to DC. Otherwise crossover circuits would not work!! By the way reduced resistance of the two wires has nothing to do with the biwiring methodology. Russ |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 29, 2021 11:38:42 GMT -5
… By the way reduced resistance of the two wires has nothing to do with the biwiring methodology. … In my case resistance to the individual driver is actually increased when I bi-wire. |
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Post by leonski on Aug 29, 2021 20:48:53 GMT -5
… By the way reduced resistance of the two wires has nothing to do with the biwiring methodology. … In my case resistance to the individual driver is actually increased when I bi-wire. I know how inductors / and elementary crossover elements work. Now? How does the amplifier know ONLY to produce those frequencies for THAT bit of wire? |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 29, 2021 21:29:52 GMT -5
In my case resistance to the individual driver is actually increased when I bi-wire. I know how inductors / and elementary crossover elements work. Now? How does the amplifier know ONLY to produce those frequencies for THAT bit of wire? Did you quote the wrong person? I’m not making any ‘technical’ claims. However, I don’t think that’s what he’s saying. |
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Post by leonski on Aug 29, 2021 21:41:36 GMT -5
Sorry. On person said that the crossover apparently sees different frequency ranges depending on what they 'cross'. Audiosyndrome could spend some profitable time looking at the article I linked from
Elliot sound Products. It concerns biamp, but is also applicible to biwire.
And yes, crossover does limit frequencies AFTER them. But is presented with all BEFORE.
The exception? ACTIVE crossovers which are generally between Pre and Main amplifiers.
And yes, Audio, you ARE right. Amp might see slightly higher resistance overall. this is mostly negligible, given real-world damping factors.
I don't know that I'd be concerned with that.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 29, 2021 22:17:03 GMT -5
Sorry, Russ.....the 'frequencies' have NO WAY of knowing what is coming and all are present right UP TO the selection by the crossover...... Here is a little reading material. sound-au.com/bi-amp.htmAnd while it talks about biamping, you will be able to get some good info out of it......Elliot Sound Products is a VERY good source of information with many articles. Sorry, you’re wrong again. Going back to my simple example. If the frequency is zero hertz current flows in the (inductor) woofer leg but no current flows in the (capacitor) tweeter leg. Conversely, if the frequency is say 100 KHz current flows in the tweeter leg but no current flows in the woofer leg.Or to say it another way, the inductor is a short circuit to DC and an open circuit to high frequencies. The capacitor is a short circuit to high frequencies but an open circuit to DC. Otherwise crossover circuits would not work!! By the way reduced resistance of the two wires has nothing to do with the biwiring methodology. Russ So I don’t have the chops to agree with or dispute either position. I can understand the concept that there’s a change in current flow between the high and low legs based on frequency (due to the crossover), what I can’t grasp is how the two legs can have a different potential (which I would assume is necessary to have a different current flow), if the resistance between the two points is essentially zero? I might suspect phase, but that’s about as far as I can take it. I’m sorry that I’m not up for the reference material. |
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Post by leonski on Aug 29, 2021 22:34:14 GMT -5
I had to read the reference mateial from ESP a couple times. Go Slow. ONE point at a time.....
The main takeaway, for purposes of biwire? The single amp produces the entire waveform fed it. And since BOTH sets of wires connect to ONE output, how CAN they have different waveforms present on them?
The discrimination of waveform based on frequency happens AT the crossover, not before.
You have my 100% guarantee that Russ did not read this or even scan. The illustrations help a lot and carry the 'gist' of the idea.
The reason I linked this article is that biamp and biwire have a few things in common, not the least of which is the physics behind it.
And example? I LOW CUT my main speakers at the PREAMP. The amp never sees the lows (12db / octave at about 50hz). So the speakers crossover doesn't 'worry' about them.....
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Post by pallpoul on Aug 29, 2021 22:47:40 GMT -5
Meanwhile, on planet earth, I swapped the T2+'s for my RF-7 III's,... They love the power of the XPA-1 gen2's in my "stack", and I feel as if another vail has been lifted, making the sound really clear, and super sweet.
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Post by audiosyndrome on Aug 30, 2021 9:30:48 GMT -5
I had to read the reference mateial from ESP a couple times. Go Slow. ONE point at a time..... The main takeaway, for purposes of biwire? The single amp produces the entire waveform fed it. And since BOTH sets of wires connect to ONE output, how CAN they have different waveforms present on them? The discrimination of waveform based on frequency happens AT the crossover, not before. You have my 100% guarantee that Russ did not read this or even scan. The illustrations help a lot and carry the 'gist' of the idea. The reason I linked this article is that biamp and biwire have a few things in common, not the least of which is the physics behind it. And example? I LOW CUT my main speakers at the PREAMP. The amp never sees the lows (12db / octave at about 50hz). So the speakers crossover doesn't 'worry' about them..... Well, Leonski is finally right about one thing; I did not read his link. I did not have too. (47 years designing circuits way more sophisticated than crossovers). But more to the point, the amplifier does KNOW. It's called Ohms Law, I=E/R. Or in this case, I=E/Z where Z equals the impedance of each biwire leg in my example. The impedance of the woofer leg is j2pifL. If f equals zero, the impedance is zero and current flows. The impedance of the tweeter leg is 1/j2pifC. If f equals zero the impedance is infinite and no current flows. And thank you for proving my point "The discrimination of waveform based on frequency happens AT the crossover, not before". Each biwire leg is part of the crossover circuit so the discrimination happens immediately at the amp. The DUMB amp simply obeys Ohms Law. Russ (BSEE MSEE) |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 30, 2021 9:39:13 GMT -5
10 gauge wire (copper) has a resistance of about 1 Ohm per 1000 feet. 14 gauge has a resistance of about 2.5 Ohms per 1000 feet. (So, if you parallel two runs of 14 gauge wire, the resistance will be 1.2 Ohms per 1000 feet, which is pretty close to the resistance of a single run of 10 gauge wire.)
The number of banana plugs you use won't make much difference... Although good heavy high quality bananas might have slightly lower resistance than wimpy thin ones.
However, the biggest factor will be sure to make sure that the banana plugs make good contact. If you install them on the wire yourself make sure that the connection is clean and the plugs are good and tight. If you use bare wire going into hand-tightened plugs, check them periodically and, if the wire is especially tarnished, cut the tip off and re-strip it. The contact point doesn't have to be mirror shiny... but any significant amount of tarnish will add resistance to the connection.
Many people seem to overlook this and it can make a big difference.
And, if you use plugs with some sort of screw on tips, make sure that THEY are tight and making good contact. You think a bi-wire 14 gauge run, like you have, maybe better then a single 10 gauge run? the xpa-1gen2 has 4 wire inputs, so i'll have 4 banana plugs on the mono-block, and 4 banana plugs on the speaker. View Attachment |
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Post by leonski on Aug 30, 2021 15:29:50 GMT -5
The Tarnish on copper? Copper oxide, which is a semiconductor and formerly used in rectifiers. This is a vanishingly small number and should not effect speakers, but May come into play on
very low voltage circuits, like phono.
One other minor point. Speaker wires are not only resistive.....Keith's number are fine. but inductive / capacitive as well. This may also have effects on what you hear. Might be speaker dependent?
Might be amp dependent?
I have VERY short runs of 10ga oto my speakers. Maybe 24'" each pair. And terminated in Banana at one end and spade at the other. And YES, they are subject to annual inspection. Amp is located right AT
the speaker. One per side.
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Post by leonski on Aug 31, 2021 18:25:23 GMT -5
You think a bi-wire 14 gauge run, like you have, maybe better then a single 10 gauge run? the xpa-1gen2 has 4 wire inputs, so i'll have 4 banana plugs on the mono-block, and 4 banana plugs on the speaker. View AttachmentConsider an upgrade when buying banana plugs. I use the expanding type sold by Blue Jeans. Make a Python Tight connection and are very heavy with good internal hardware. Current Price? 7.25$ per pair. An investment? |
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Post by pallpoul on Aug 31, 2021 18:40:25 GMT -5
You think a bi-wire 14 gauge run, like you have, maybe better then a single 10 gauge run? the xpa-1gen2 has 4 wire inputs, so i'll have 4 banana plugs on the mono-block, and 4 banana plugs on the speaker. View AttachmentConsider an upgrade when buying banana plugs. I use the expanding type sold by Blue Jeans. Make a Python Tight connection and are very heavy with good internal hardware. Current Price? 7.25$ per pair. An investment? That's what I use leonski. Ty |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 31, 2021 20:58:46 GMT -5
Consider an upgrade when buying banana plugs. I use the expanding type sold by Blue Jeans. Make a Python Tight connection and are very heavy with good internal hardware. Current Price? 7.25$ per pair. An investment? That's what I use leonski. Ty Those look like the GLS plugs I’m using in the photo above, two years ago I bought 20 pair for $40, quite a bump! These from Parts Express are good too, but work best with 10 or 8 AWG, 12 is almost too small, and 14 is (copper plates can make smaller wires fit). www.parts-express.com/Expanding-Banana-Plug-with-Dual-Set-Screws-and-Poly-Carbonat-091-3604 |
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Post by leonski on Aug 31, 2021 22:38:16 GMT -5
I had to read the reference mateial from ESP a couple times. Go Slow. ONE point at a time..... The main takeaway, for purposes of biwire? The single amp produces the entire waveform fed it. And since BOTH sets of wires connect to ONE output, how CAN they have different waveforms present on them? The discrimination of waveform based on frequency happens AT the crossover, not before. You have my 100% guarantee that Russ did not read this or even scan. The illustrations help a lot and carry the 'gist' of the idea. The reason I linked this article is that biamp and biwire have a few things in common, not the least of which is the physics behind it. And example? I LOW CUT my main speakers at the PREAMP. The amp never sees the lows (12db / octave at about 50hz). So the speakers crossover doesn't 'worry' about them..... Well, Leonski is finally right about one thing; I did not read his link. I did not have too. (47 years designing circuits way more sophisticated than crossovers). But more to the point, the amplifier does KNOW. It's called Ohms Law, I=E/R. Or in this case, I=E/Z where Z equals the impedance of each biwire leg in my example. The impedance of the woofer leg is j2pifL. If f equals zero, the impedance is zero and current flows. The impedance of the tweeter leg is 1/j2pifC. If f equals zero the impedance is infinite and no current flows. And thank you for proving my point "The discrimination of waveform based on frequency happens AT the crossover, not before". Each biwire leg is part of the crossover circuit so the discrimination happens immediately at the amp. The DUMB amp simply obeys Ohms Law. Russ (BSEE MSEE) I had to go to the bench for this. For Audiosyndrome? You are correct but concealed the answer in a bunch of math. ALL you had to say was the Voltage will be present full spectrum but no HF current flows in the low pass and no LF current flows in the high pass. Few non-professsional engineer types read the numbers. An 'executive summary' would have cleared it up INSTANTLY. Simple as that. And corresponds exactly to what is in the article I linked from ESP. HE gets it right and applies it to biamp. But in the case of biamp? The reason it doesnt' work out, maybe 'as expected' is that both amps continue to swing the full voltage. And can clip. A transistor can swing only so much voltage, even if the current is within limits. And apparenlty will clip at the same time? SS amps are voltage driven. Once you clip, you're thru. So when you put the crossover in FRONT of the amplifiers? That's when you can reap the full benefits. In MY job I had to communicate with management. Some knew less about what I and others in-fab did than you'd hope. So the rule was to always Keep It Simple. If I lot scrapped, for example, the boss knew immediately, but the report had an executive summary which was not complicatd. The body would contain the real information, trouble shooting, ROOT CAUSE and Recommendations for various changes....going forward. We were seldom 'fooled twice'. I spent 30 years or more making everything from quartz tuning forks to sub-micron integrated circuits to my favorite.....power transistors. All related technologies.....to an extent. |
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Post by audiosyndrome on Sept 1, 2021 9:06:40 GMT -5
Well, Leonski is finally right about one thing; I did not read his link. I did not have too. (47 years designing circuits way more sophisticated than crossovers). But more to the point, the amplifier does KNOW. It's called Ohms Law, I=E/R. Or in this case, I=E/Z where Z equals the impedance of each biwire leg in my example. The impedance of the woofer leg is j2pifL. If f equals zero, the impedance is zero and current flows. The impedance of the tweeter leg is 1/j2pifC. If f equals zero the impedance is infinite and no current flows. And thank you for proving my point "The discrimination of waveform based on frequency happens AT the crossover, not before". Each biwire leg is part of the crossover circuit so the discrimination happens immediately at the amp. The DUMB amp simply obeys Ohms Law. Russ (BSEE MSEE) I had to go to the bench for this. For Audiosyndrome? You are correct but concealed the answer in a bunch of math. ALL you had to say was the Voltage will be present full spectrum but no HF current flows in the low pass and no LF current flows in the high pass. Few non-professsional engineer types read the numbers. An 'executive summary' would have cleared it up INSTANTLY. Wow. You couldn’t concede gracefully and just say you were wrong?? And I couldn’t have made it any simpler in my posts prior to the NUMBERS post. But since you seem to have some technical chops I thought the Ohms Law approach would work for you. Apparently it did. Russ |
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Post by leonski on Sept 1, 2021 14:43:17 GMT -5
Thanks Russ....and you were right.....I need a good explanation going forward so I do NOT repeat such an error.
If I had a scope? What would I see? Let's say I looked at the 2 inputs.....the HF and than the LF? Would I see the same voltage or trace there? I know Zero Current flow.
And this also seems to indicate the possibility of biwire making a difference. Though I'd rather compare like to like....This gets VERY subbjective.
And in my working days? Engineers and mostly managers tended to SKIP over 'the numbers'. I may be as guilty!
I once did a LOT of work on thin film reflectance.....The aluminum layer in transistors as deposited. I PROVED statistically that the way we referenced was just WRONG. I had a gigantic spreadsheet
with all my raw data and than conclusions. Nobody would pay attention. The goofy engineer who put us on the worng track? Long Gone....
Yes, I am technically inclined. BUT? No Systemic Education. I taught myself minimal statistics. I would go visit one of the PHD engineers (smart and forthcoming) periodically and ask a question than listen.
For me? It all became an urge to close the loops. YOU closed one for me. And now my reading about Power Factor and a few otherwise unrelated things starts to make more sense.
Thanks again......and Stay in touch.
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