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Post by davidl81 on Sept 8, 2021 19:03:19 GMT -5
Man,
Sorry to see so many of you who were happy with your XMC-2 last week suddenly be not happy with it because of a review. Ultimately does your system sounds good to you or not? If the answer is yes then why should anyone care about what the reviews say. If you were not happy with the unit well now you may have a reason that explains what was going on.
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richb
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Post by richb on Sept 8, 2021 19:20:52 GMT -5
As I understand it SINAD is a relatively widely used metric - FOR RADIO TRANSMITTERS. However I don't know of any major audio magazine or audio review site that uses it. While it is just another way of expressing THD+N, S/N, and THD, it cannot be directly compared to any of those metrics commonly used by other audio reviewers.
(Which makes it sort of like those special screws, that only fit that special screwdriver, than you can only buy from that one company, who nobody seems to ever have in stock.)
As an engineer (retired) I would challenge your comment “MANY engineers do not put much value in SINAD measurements”. Otherwise good post. 👍 Russ This calculator can be used to easily covert between SINAD and THD: www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-thd.htm SINAD 86 dB is THD 0.005. 0.005 may not set ASR on fire but it is a good number the many customers interpret as good to excellent. IMO, it would be beneficial if Emotiva published performance specification and possibly measurements. If, for example, the XMC-2 is published at 0.0005 and the 0.0001 for the RMC-1, then there would be no controversy. I suspect owners would appreciate the additional specs. For the Gen3 amps, the specs are max power 0.1% distortion but I am sure it does much better when not driven to the max. Parasound addresses this by also providing typical distortion numbers. - Rich |
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Post by goodfellas27 on Sept 8, 2021 20:04:39 GMT -5
Keith, can you please release the specification of both the XMC-2 and RMC-1 with firmware 2.3? Thanks for chiming in. J As I understand it SINAD is a relatively widely used metric - FOR RADIO TRANSMITTERS. However I don't know of any major audio magazine or audio review site that uses it.
While it is just another way of expressing THD+N, S/N, and THD, it cannot be directly compared to any of those metrics commonly used by other audio reviewers.
(Which makes it sort of like those special screws, that only fit that special screwdriver, than you can only buy from that one company, who nobody seems to ever have in stock.) |
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Post by donh50 on Sept 8, 2021 21:15:49 GMT -5
For the record, from my memory of the IEEE Standards (I helped write and review them but that was long ago): - SINAD = signal to noise and distortion ratio = ratio of signal to everything else
- This is the same as THD+N
- SINAD was adopted by the IEEE and other standards bodies some time ago; I am not sure if THD+N persists outside audio but not something I track - THD = total harmonic distortion = ratio of fundamental to distortion terms using at least 10 harmonics (number varies a little bit among manufacturers)
- SNR = signal to noise ratio = ratio of signal to noise not including distortion terms
- IMD = intermodulation distortion, happens whenever two or more terms are distorted, creates non-harmonic tones as well as harmonic terms
- For a given harmonic distortion level, intermodulation distortion is higher for the same peak voltage level (e.g. IMD2 = HD2 + ~6 dB; IMD3 = HD3 +~9.5 dB) - To convert x% to dB in voltage use dBV = 20*log10(x/100)
HTH - Don |
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Sept 8, 2021 21:17:53 GMT -5
I highly doubt they are up to anything fishy. I have no regrets trading my XMC-1 in on the 2. Where are all the bugs you are talking about? Seriously…. As a XMC-2 I can send you a list. Like many, I was living with them, being frustrated at time but thinking I had a processor measuring close to the top….. now it is highly doubtful. It I still trust Emotive to figure out a way to address the situation. Measure and communicate frankly. And if needed take the right actions for their loyal customers. No more denial without proofs and measurements and no denigrating of SINAD as a spec. I use mine everyday. No complaints from the family. Right now it is working well for me. Sorry you are unhappy. Edit: What problems are you having? If you list them, people here may be able to suggest solutions. Lots of good, knowledgeable individuals here. |
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Post by JKCashin on Sept 8, 2021 21:31:09 GMT -5
SINAD 86 dB is THD 0.005. 0.005 may not set ASR on fire but it is a good number the many customers interpret as good to excellent. Holy crap... 0.005? I'm over the moon about this number... thank you! I thought it was closer to 0.02 for some reason.... puts it into perspective. I had a buddy come over this evening and have a listen in Reference Stereo and in DBU (7.1.2) and he was impressed. No, he's not a measuring device, but in the end, I think it sounds good. I was sold on the idea that this device measured really well, and had a great performance to price ratio. I'm waffling back-and-forth between mesurebation satisfaction and empirical satisfaction. |
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Post by KimbaWLion on Sept 8, 2021 22:23:15 GMT -5
You know, as I read all this and look at other available gear it just makes me wonder. As usual, in this type of thread it comes down to 2-3 camps.
I may need to upgrade my pre pro from my Yamaha CX 5000, but I can say this, my Yamaha works perfectly for older gear, being around 7-8 years old.
It's missing a lot of the latest and greatest features, but Arc works fine and my TV at 4k works at 60hz. My HTPC with the HDMI 2.1 output will have to wait to show my TV at 120Mhz and use Earc.
I am currently running 7.2, my XPA 3 11 channel amp works fine but I think I will upgrade some of my speaker array first. I think a pre pro is going to have to wait till the dust has fully settled. FWIW Amir doesn't have an ax to grind as far as I know and has no reason to be dishonest in his evaluation. I will leave it to others to argue points back and forth. All I know is if I am going to spend $3K to almost $5K on a pre pro I want it to work 100% as fully advertised, at that moment, with zero issues out of the box. I say it like that, as there are always FW updates that make things better. Just my non technical 2 cents...
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Post by AudioHTIT on Sept 8, 2021 23:02:13 GMT -5
Seriously…. As a XMC-2 I can send you a list. Like many, I was living with them, being frustrated at time but thinking I had a processor measuring close to the top….. now it is highly doubtful. It I still trust Emotive to figure out a way to address the situation. Measure and communicate frankly. And if needed take the right actions for their loyal customers. No more denial without proofs and measurements and no denigrating of SINAD as a spec. I use mine everyday. No complaints from the family. Right now it is working well for me. Sorry you are unhappy. Edit: What problems are you having? If you list them, people here may be able to suggest solutions. Lots of good, knowledgeable individuals here. This isn’t the thread for that, the owners thread is the place to talk about those things. We’re discussing a review and measurements here, and trying to correlate disparate results. Though it makes some unhappy, it really shouldn’t, it doesn’t change how the units work. It’s a discussion, not a problem to solve. |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Sept 9, 2021 0:26:03 GMT -5
I use mine everyday. No complaints from the family. Right now it is working well for me. Sorry you are unhappy. Edit: What problems are you having? If you list them, people here may be able to suggest solutions. Lots of good, knowledgeable individuals here. This isn’t the thread for that, the owners thread is the place to talk about those things. We’re discussing a review and measurements here, and trying to correlate disparate results. Though it makes some unhappy, it really shouldn’t, it doesn’t change how the units work. It’s a discussion, not a problem to solve. Agreed that the current owners know how good or bad their XMC2 is. But if the ASR review hits mainstream, my guess is that NO ONE will buy the XMC2. So if Emotiva thinks this will blow over without them giving a response and a solid story, their processors are done. I’m one of the biggest XMC2 proponents based on the version I got (the trouble free high performing version) but if Emotiva doesn’t provide a sound explanation with test results, I probably will be looking elsewhere when the XMC2 goes obsolete. |
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Sept 9, 2021 1:09:58 GMT -5
I use mine everyday. No complaints from the family. Right now it is working well for me. Sorry you are unhappy. Edit: What problems are you having? If you list them, people here may be able to suggest solutions. Lots of good, knowledgeable individuals here. This isn’t the thread for that, the owners thread is the place to talk about those things. We’re discussing a review and measurements here, and trying to correlate disparate results. Though it makes some unhappy, it really shouldn’t, it doesn’t change how the units work. It’s a discussion, not a problem to solve. Just tired of the badmouthing of a product that works well for me and asking for details. Without further details from unhappy customers it’s difficult to understand if these issues are fixable (bugs) or just due to buyer’s remorse due to a bad review. I do understand that we are discussing measurements here, but some are going beyond and talking bugs. |
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Sept 9, 2021 1:20:28 GMT -5
This isn’t the thread for that, the owners thread is the place to talk about those things. We’re discussing a review and measurements here, and trying to correlate disparate results. Though it makes some unhappy, it really shouldn’t, it doesn’t change how the units work. It’s a discussion, not a problem to solve. Agreed that the current owners know how good or bad their XMC2 is. But if the ASR review hits mainstream, my guess is that NO ONE will buy the XMC2. So if Emotiva thinks this will blow over without them giving a response and a solid story, their processors are done. I’m one of the biggest XMC2 proponents based on the version I got (the trouble free high performing version) but if Emotiva doesn’t provide a sound explanation with test results, I probably will be looking elsewhere when the XMC2 goes obsolete. I don’t know if ASR has the global power and following to put a company’s product out of business, but I suppose without a defense it’s possible it would take a hit, especially when people Google reviews. But at this point I think you are right. They will need to test these units to defend or if there really is a problem, to fix. Just my .02. |
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Post by derwin on Sept 9, 2021 6:15:43 GMT -5
This isn’t the thread for that, the owners thread is the place to talk about those things. We’re discussing a review and measurements here, and trying to correlate disparate results. Though it makes some unhappy, it really shouldn’t, it doesn’t change how the units work. It’s a discussion, not a problem to solve. Just tired of the badmouthing of a product that works well for me and asking for details. Without further details from unhappy customers it’s difficult to understand if these issues are fixable (bugs) or just due to buyer’s remorse due to a bad review. I do understand that we are discussing measurements here, but some are going beyond and talking bugs. To be clear, it isn’t a “bad review,” it’s a set of measurements that show one of the most important aspects Emotiva sold us on this processor is not true (the same performance as the RMC). And not like it was close. The RMC performs at the upper echelon of prepros - the XMC2 is bested by old midrange yamahas and sonys. The point continues to be, while I don’t think my XMC2 sounds bad (glitchy yes… but that’s for a different thread), while it doesn’t sound bad, it sure seems like Emotiva sold me something far different than they told me I was buying. To me, their brand is a small company trying their hardest to make great sounding gear, and I am so willing to support them in that mission and be patient about the things a huge company would do better. They obviously could do that - see the RMC. But if they cheaped out or cut corners or were just lazy and didn’t do tests on the XMC2 and sold it to us for $3k and told us it was the same and it isn’t even close… Well, that is the impression we’ve been left with, and why we keep asking them to help us see things otherwise. |
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Sept 9, 2021 6:59:04 GMT -5
Just tired of the badmouthing of a product that works well for me and asking for details. Without further details from unhappy customers it’s difficult to understand if these issues are fixable (bugs) or just due to buyer’s remorse due to a bad review. I do understand that we are discussing measurements here, but some are going beyond and talking bugs. To be clear, it isn’t a “bad review,” it’s a set of measurements that show one of the most important aspects Emotiva sold us on this processor is not true (the same performance as the RMC). And not like it was close. The RMC performs at the upper echelon of prepros - the XMC2 is bested by old midrange yamahas and sonys. The point continues to be, while I don’t think my XMC2 sounds bad (glitchy yes… but that’s for a different thread), while it doesn’t sound bad, it sure seems like Emotiva sold me something far different than they told me I was buying. To me, their brand is a small company trying their hardest to make great sounding gear, and I am so willing to support them in that mission and be patient about the things a huge company would do better. They obviously could do that - see the RMC. But if they cheaped out or cut corners or were just lazy and didn’t do tests on the XMC2 and sold it to us for $3k and told us it was the same and it isn’t even close… Well, that is the impression we’ve been left with, and why we keep asking them to help us see things otherwise. Speculation. Until they do these tests that everyone wants to either validate or counter ASR, it's all speculation on your's and other's parts. I've purchased Emotiva gear for a long time now, have been to Emofest in Franklin, have met Dan and Lonnie there and at trade shows. They have been nothing but gracious and transparent in what they do. Their customer service has been excellent when I've needed it, which has been rare. There are multiple reasons the ASR test on the XMC-2 could have been problematic. One already being brought up here, broken unit. But there is no need to speculate. Lonnie is aware and likely will be running his own tests. The XMC-1 and XMC-2 that I've owned have been the best sounding prepros I have ever owned, especially when compared to my previous Denon and Pioneer Elite receivers. No question. Both of those unites were not trouble free, however once the warranty expired I could never get the customer service or satisfaction from either company. Patience. |
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Post by derwin on Sept 9, 2021 7:03:00 GMT -5
To be clear, it isn’t a “bad review,” it’s a set of measurements that show one of the most important aspects Emotiva sold us on this processor is not true (the same performance as the RMC). And not like it was close. The RMC performs at the upper echelon of prepros - the XMC2 is bested by old midrange yamahas and sonys. The point continues to be, while I don’t think my XMC2 sounds bad (glitchy yes… but that’s for a different thread), while it doesn’t sound bad, it sure seems like Emotiva sold me something far different than they told me I was buying. To me, their brand is a small company trying their hardest to make great sounding gear, and I am so willing to support them in that mission and be patient about the things a huge company would do better. They obviously could do that - see the RMC. But if they cheaped out or cut corners or were just lazy and didn’t do tests on the XMC2 and sold it to us for $3k and told us it was the same and it isn’t even close… Well, that is the impression we’ve been left with, and why we keep asking them to help us see things otherwise. Speculation. Until they do these tests that everyone wants to either validate or counter ASR, it's all speculation on your's and other's parts. I've purchased Emotiva gear for a long time now, have been to Emofest in Franklin, have met Dan and Lonnie there and at trade shows. They have been nothing but gracious and transparent in what they do. Their customer service has been excellent when I've needed it, which has been rare. There are multiple reasons the ASR test on the XMC-2 could have been problematic. One already being brought up here, broken unit. But there is no need to speculate. Lonnie is aware and likely will be running his own tests. The XMC-1 and XMC-2 that I've owned have been the best sounding prepros I have ever owned, especially when compared to my previous Denon and Pioneer Elite receivers. No question. Both of those unites were not trouble free, however once the warranty expired I could never get the customer service or satisfaction from either company. Patience. I mean, it isn’t speculation. We have the results for both RMC and XMC2. Emotiva’s test even showed the same poor performance that ASR did. What we’re doing now is hoping. Hoping there is some discrepancy that we haven’t thought of or missed. |
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Sept 9, 2021 7:05:39 GMT -5
Speculation. Until they do these tests that everyone wants to either validate or counter ASR, it's all speculation on your's and other's parts. I've purchased Emotiva gear for a long time now, have been to Emofest in Franklin, have met Dan and Lonnie there and at trade shows. They have been nothing but gracious and transparent in what they do. Their customer service has been excellent when I've needed it, which has been rare. There are multiple reasons the ASR test on the XMC-2 could have been problematic. One already being brought up here, broken unit. But there is no need to speculate. Lonnie is aware and likely will be running his own tests. The XMC-1 and XMC-2 that I've owned have been the best sounding prepros I have ever owned, especially when compared to my previous Denon and Pioneer Elite receivers. No question. Both of those unites were not trouble free, however once the warranty expired I could never get the customer service or satisfaction from either company. Patience. I mean, it isn’t speculation. We have the results for both RMC and XMC2. Emotiva’s test even showed the same poor performance that ASR did. What we’re doing now is hoping. Hoping there is some discrepancy that we haven’t thought of or missed. OK....point me to the poor test that Lonnie just did....maybe I missed it. I guess I need to dig through this thread.... I've re-read the thread and the various tests. As lsc has stated, it's confusing still even with Lonnie trying to explain. Some of this is likely above my head as I'm not an EE, but I do trust Lonnie. Looking for further clarification soon. There has to be a variable involved especially since all three platforms are built on the same architecture. Thanks for the civil discussion....I'll shutup now till more info comes. In the meantime, I'm still enjoying the sound! |
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Post by tabbycph on Sept 9, 2021 7:24:40 GMT -5
OK....point me to the poor test that Lonnie just did....maybe I missed it. I guess I need to dig through this thread.... I've re-read the thread and the various tests. As lsc has stated, it's confusing still even with Lonnie trying to explain. Some of this is likely above my head as I'm not an EE, but I do trust Lonnie. Looking for further clarification soon. There has to be a variable involved especially since all three platforms are built on the same architecture. Thanks for the civil discussion....I'll shutup now till more info comes. In the meantime, I'm still enjoying the sound! |
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Post by brutiarti on Sept 9, 2021 8:27:36 GMT -5
I think Emotiva shouldn’t defend anything. If you don’t like the numbers posted by an agenda driven website, don’t buy the product. If you care about how it sounds buy it and have a listen. If you don’t like how it sounds, return it. Simple as that
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Post by monkumonku on Sept 9, 2021 9:56:12 GMT -5
I think Emotiva shouldn’t defend anything. If you don’t like the numbers posted by an agenda driven website, don’t buy the product. If you care about how it sounds buy it and have a listen. If you don’t like how it sounds, return it. Simple as that Not sure if Amir is really "agenda driven" but otherwise I agree with you. If you like a product then what difference do the numbers make? How many of us know all the specs for our cars? The likely answer would be not many, and to add to that, "I don't need to know the specs, I just like driving it." Or, "It does the job." So if that is the case with your car, then what is the deal with your audio gear? What if you have a car whose top speed is supposed to be 140 mph but some magazine or web site says it could only do 135 mph? Do you even drive that fast anyway?  |
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Post by audiobill on Sept 9, 2021 10:01:26 GMT -5
Measurements are only one criteria. Equally important, imo, are sonics, build quality, aesthetics, longevity, reliability, pride of ownership and resale value. And of course, all these things cost.
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Post by garbulky on Sept 9, 2021 10:03:55 GMT -5
I think Emotiva shouldn’t defend anything. If you don’t like the numbers posted by an agenda driven website, don’t buy the product. If you care about how it sounds buy it and have a listen. If you don’t like how it sounds, return it. Simple as that Not sure if Amir is really "agenda driven" but otherwise I agree with you. If you like a product then what difference do the numbers make? How many of us know all the specs for our cars? The likely answer would be not many, and to add to that, "I don't need to know the specs, I just like driving it." Or, "It does the job." So if that is the case with your car, then what is the deal with your audio gear? What if you have a car whose top speed is supposed to be 140 mph but some magazine or web site says it could only do 135 mph? Do you even drive that fast anyway? If I spend the $$ to buy a TOTL product, then yes, I do want to know that a lot of time was spent on getting the distortion as low as possible. Or at least better than the competition. Otherwise, I would spend my money on a more inexpensive product as long as it had the features I wanted. Having said that, though these numbers aren't going to make anyone jump for joy, the distortion is likely inaudible. |
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