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Post by 405x5 on Sept 23, 2021 15:10:18 GMT -5
I've no issues with Mr. Mark at all. But the point I'm wanting to make is that "figuring out what the speakers want" is not a simple task. speakers want what we all want. “a roof over our head” That’s so when they’re ready, they can blow that roof clean off |
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 24, 2021 21:54:54 GMT -5
OK - So now that I've got the imaging and frequency response right on my B&W 704 speakers, the only major problem remaining is low-volume dynamics. These speakers seem to have a "volume threshold" that must be exceeded for the speakers to sound dynamic. I've tried muscular amps, Class-D amps, tube amps, and every other amp I can get my hand on, but none of them make the speakers jump at low volumes.
Any suggestions? And please don't say the obvious ("just turn it up!") - my wife does NOT like louder music.
Thanks - Boom
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ttocs
Global Moderator 
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,161
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Post by ttocs on Sept 24, 2021 22:10:08 GMT -5
OK - So now that I've got the imaging and frequency response right on my B&W 704 speakers, the only major problem remaining is low-volume dynamics. These speakers seem to have a "volume threshold" that must be exceeded for the speakers to sound dynamic. I've tried muscular amps, Class-D amps, tube amps, and every other amp I can get my hand on, but none of them make the speakers jump at low volumes. Any suggestions? And please don't say the obvious ("just turn it up!") - my wife does NOT like louder music. Thanks - Boom This is something I came across totally by accident. I was moving absorption panels around the room and was tired of getting totally out of the room for "before/after" effect and just tossed a couple on the floor in front of the MLP. This reduced the volume level. I don't really know if it was "broad spectrum" or whatever, but it's easy to try. Maybe this would allow for a bit more electicicals (Lisa Douglas, Green Acres) to flow without an increase in volume to the ears? As long as you don't need to walk in front of the MLP, you're golden! |
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Post by jbrunwa on Sept 25, 2021 11:32:14 GMT -5
OK - So now that I've got the imaging and frequency response right on my B&W 704 speakers, the only major problem remaining is low-volume dynamics. These speakers seem to have a "volume threshold" that must be exceeded for the speakers to sound dynamic. I've tried muscular amps, Class-D amps, tube amps, and every other amp I can get my hand on, but none of them make the speakers jump at low volumes. Any suggestions? And please don't say the obvious ("just turn it up!") - my wife does NOT like louder music. Thanks - Boom At the risk of saying something obvious but hoping not, something that helps us hear the dynamics is to gradually (like 5 minutes at a time) lower the volume, allowing our brains to get used to the lower volume and we begin hearing the dynamics of the music. Another maybe obvious thing is using the Fletcher Munson loudness compensation, Lastly, the ambient noise level in our room is fairly high some times (40 dB, sometime less at night) so at some level we can’t lower the volume and have enough dynamic range because of that. We don’t want to further damage our hearing (high frequency loss with age runs in my family) so are interested to hear what solutions you try and how they work. |
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Post by novisnick on Sept 25, 2021 11:52:55 GMT -5
OK - So now that I've got the imaging and frequency response right on my B&W 704 speakers, the only major problem remaining is low-volume dynamics. These speakers seem to have a "volume threshold" that must be exceeded for the speakers to sound dynamic. I've tried muscular amps, Class-D amps, tube amps, and every other amp I can get my hand on, but none of them make the speakers jump at low volumes. Any suggestions? And please don't say the obvious ("just turn it up!") - my wife does NOT like louder music. Thanks - Boom Are we here to make you happy OR the wifey happy! It’s either or but most likely NOT both. 🤯😳🤣😂🤣😂 Sorry that I don’t have any suggestions for you. Some speakers (most in my limited experience) have that wall/ledge/hip that they must exceed to find the musicality of the speaker. Dynamics, if you like. Have you found any dynamics with any type of music at lower volumes? |
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 25, 2021 16:17:20 GMT -5
...Have you found any dynamics with any type of music at lower volumes? In fact, I have. I've (generally) found a direct correlation between speaker sensitivity and low-level dynamics. The speakers with the highest sensitivities (Klipschorns, for example) have the best low-volume dynamics. Even my modest Klipsch RP-600M bookshelf speakers do pretty good low-volume dynamics. But get into a speaker with lower sensitivity (Magnepans come to mind), and the "loudness threshold" comes into play. If your volume's less than the threshold, the speakers just don't sound too dynamic; above the threshold, the speakers start sounding far more alive. This is not a hard and fast rule, though. My old Dahlquist DQ-10a speakers were nobody's idea of "high sensitivity," yet they'd still sound great at low volumes. Why? I've no idea. Mr. jbrunwa has excellent suggestions too, though. I hadn't thought about background noise. My main AC return is in the listening room, and my house is next door to a student apartment parking lot. So there's LOTS of background noise in my listening room. Were I expecting to be here much longer, I'd look into ways to soundproof the room, but that won't be feasible. I might be able to put some absorbers in the window frames? Thanks - Boom |
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Post by novisnick on Sept 25, 2021 16:58:20 GMT -5
...Have you found any dynamics with any type of music at lower volumes? In fact, I have. I've (generally) found a direct correlation between speaker sensitivity and low-level dynamics. The speakers with the highest sensitivities (Klipschorns, for example) have the best low-volume dynamics. Even my modest Klipsch RP-600M bookshelf speakers do pretty good low-volume dynamics. But get into a speaker with lower sensitivity (Magnepans come to mind), and the "loudness threshold" comes into play. If your volume's less than the threshold, the speakers just don't sound too dynamic; above the threshold, the speakers start sounding far more alive. This is not a hard and fast rule, though. My old Dahlquist DQ-10a speakers were nobody's idea of "high sensitivity," yet they'd still sound great at low volumes. Why? I've no idea. Mr. jbrunwa has excellent suggestions too, though. I hadn't thought about background noise. My main AC return is in the listening room, and my house is next door to a student apartment parking lot. So there's LOTS of background noise in my listening room. Were I expecting to be here much longer, I'd look into ways to soundproof the room, but that won't be feasible. I might be able to put some absorbers in the window frames? Thanks - Boom Sound like light will most definitely come through the window area much more so than the walls. I have a set of glass double doors in my listening room. I made (economically with rock wool) sound absorbers to cover both doors. I first hung heavy black-thermal drapes over the doors to darken the room. This room is also used for HT so light pollution is avoided from those doors. I’ve never heard any noise from that side of the house. The absorbers are a self contained structure so I can move them if if wish. (When you move) Sound pollution is the bane of most listening rooms. I’ve avoided most outside sounds by purchasing a home on a dead end street and out away from the city so my nearest neighbor is 200 yards away. On rare occasion he has told me that he heard something going on at my place and in turn I get the rare thrill of hearing his Olds 442! |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Sept 27, 2021 8:22:10 GMT -5
… the only major problem remaining is low-volume dynamics. These speakers seem to have a "volume threshold" that must be exceeded for the speakers to sound dynamic. I've tried muscular amps, Class-D amps, tube amps, and every other amp I can get my hand on, but none of them make the speakers jump at low volumes. … In fact, I have. I've (generally) found a direct correlation between speaker sensitivity and low-level dynamics. The speakers with the highest sensitivities (Klipschorns, for example) have the best low-volume dynamics. Even my modest Klipsch RP-600M bookshelf speakers do pretty good low-volume dynamics. But get into a speaker with lower sensitivity (Magnepans come to mind), and the "loudness threshold" comes into play. If your volume's less than the threshold, the speakers just don't sound too dynamic; above the threshold, the speakers start sounding far more alive. This is not a hard and fast rule, though. My old Dahlquist DQ-10a speakers were nobody's idea of "high sensitivity," yet they'd still sound great at low volumes. Why? I've no idea. … This dynamics issue seems a topic unto itself, your comment on a listening threshold, fits right in. Sensitive speakers are said to be more dynamic, and the K-.Horns are the classic example. But other places in the system where sensitivity is lowered, have caused some to comment on a loss of dynamics; low output preamps, low sensitivity amps, ARC (Dirac) that reduces gain all have at times been attributed to a loss of dynamics. Some is hard to fathom, if the gain lost in one place is made up for in another, but still the comments continue. Fletcher Munson is also mentioned, which leads one to think systems that compensate for our hearing anomalies can sound more dynamic (or at least pleasant). One wants to believe if the dynamic range and SPL of a system is duplicated, then the ‘dynamics’ would be the same, but that doesn’t seem always to be the case. Likely because there’s more to what we call dynamics than SPL and range, transients are another component, is that something sensitive systems are inherently better at? Certainly they may have lower distortion, but are they also ‘faster’, I think back to the slew rate wars in the 70s, and the emergence of TIM and SID into the conversation. Those terms aren’t discussed anymore, and one doesn’t hear latency used much with audio. To a musician dynamics are marks and words on a score, and when they interpret them properly and together (likely with the aid of a good conductor), they greatly add to the excitement and interest in the music (or possibly discomfort if you don’t like variation). I’m obviously not coming to any conclusions, just trying to ferret out some thoughts on what it means when a system sounds more dynamic, or what it means to loose it. |
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Post by 405x5 on Sept 27, 2021 8:31:09 GMT -5
… the only major problem remaining is low-volume dynamics. These speakers seem to have a "volume threshold" that must be exceeded for the speakers to sound dynamic. I've tried muscular amps, Class-D amps, tube amps, and every other amp I can get my hand on, but none of them make the speakers jump at low volumes. … In fact, I have. I've (generally) found a direct correlation between speaker sensitivity and low-level dynamics. The speakers with the highest sensitivities (Klipschorns, for example) have the best low-volume dynamics. Even my modest Klipsch RP-600M bookshelf speakers do pretty good low-volume dynamics. But get into a speaker with lower sensitivity (Magnepans come to mind), and the "loudness threshold" comes into play. If your volume's less than the threshold, the speakers just don't sound too dynamic; above the threshold, the speakers start sounding far more alive. This is not a hard and fast rule, though. My old Dahlquist DQ-10a speakers were nobody's idea of "high sensitivity," yet they'd still sound great at low volumes. Why? I've no idea. … This dynamics issue seems a topic unto itself, your comment on a listening threshold, fits right in. Sensitive speakers are said to be more dynamic, and the K-.Horns are the classic example. But other places in the system where sensitivity is lowered, have caused some to comment on a loss of dynamics; low output preamps, low sensitivity amps, ARC (Dirac) that reduces gain all have at times been attributed to a loss of dynamics. Some is hard to fathom, if the gain lost in one place is made up for in another, but still the comments continue. Fletcher Munson is also mentioned, which leads one to think systems that compensate for our hearing anomalies can sound more dynamic (or at least pleasant). One wants to believe if the dynamic range and SPL of a system is duplicated, then the ‘dynamics’ would be the same, but that doesn’t seem always to be the case. Likely because there’s more to what we call dynamics than SPL and range, transients are another component, is that something sensitive systems are inherently better at? Certainly they may have lower distortion, but are they also ‘faster’, I think back to the slew rate wars in the 70s, and the emergence of TIM and SID into the conversation. Those terms aren’t discussed anymore, and one doesn’t hear latency used much with audio. To a musician dynamics are marks and words on a score, and when they interpret them properly and together (likely with the aid of a good conductor), they greatly add to the excitement and interest in the music (or possibly discomfort if you don’t like variation). I’m obviously not coming to any conclusions, just trying to ferret out some thoughts on what it means when a system sounds more dynamic, or what it means to loose it. I agree; dynamics are getting skewed here |
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 27, 2021 9:30:20 GMT -5
You're also confusing distortions of electronics (TIM) with distortions of speaker drivers (IM).
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Post by AudioHTIT on Sept 27, 2021 9:40:11 GMT -5
You're also confusing distortions of electronics (TIM) with distortions of speaker drivers (IM). I think I tried to use the word ‘system’ and tried to include examples of many devices, and I began by saying this is a topic on its own. But yes, TIM and SID were associated with amplifiers, I wasn’t limiting the discussion to speakers, but as this is a thread about speakers, it was OT. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 27, 2021 9:50:49 GMT -5
You're allowed!
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