Speaker Toe-in recommendation

[novisnick]

Thought I’d reach out to my audio friends before I start “The Speaker Dance”. 
I’m using my Paradigm Studio 100’s v5 and have recently purchased a new chair. It sits closer to my center channel.


Distances;
center channel is on the same plane as my L/R, it sits 6’ to my ears.
L/R are 9’ apart and are 7’ to my ears

The L/R were only slightly toed in and sounded good. I don’t believe they have ever sounded great when pointed directly at the sweet spot. (Narrow sweet spot) 

We have all set up plenty of speakers but I thought I’d ask for help.
I can not bring the speakers closer together.
Thanks in advance.

[monkumonku]

Sept 29, 2021 21:40:18 GMT -5 novisnick said:

Thought I’d reach out to my audio friends before I start “The Speaker Dance”. 
I’m using my Paradigm Studio 100’s v5 and have recently purchased a new chair. It sits closer to my center channel.


Distances;
center channel is on the same plane as my L/R, it sits 6’ to my ears.
L/R are 9’ apart and are 7’ to my ears

The L/R were only slightly toed in and sounded good. I don’t believe they have ever sounded great when pointed directly at the sweet spot. (Narrow sweet spot) 

We have all set up plenty of speakers but I thought I’d ask for help.
I can not bring the speakers closer together.
Thanks in advance.

Even if someone recommends something, their room isn't your room, and even if you take their suggestion you're going to wonder if changing things would improve the sound. And then you'll change things to find out.

[novisnick]

Sept 29, 2021 22:10:49 GMT -5 monkumonku said:

Sept 29, 2021 21:40:18 GMT -5 novisnick said:

Thought I’d reach out to my audio friends before I start “The Speaker Dance”. 
I’m using my Paradigm Studio 100’s v5 and have recently purchased a new chair. It sits closer to my center channel.


Distances;
center channel is on the same plane as my L/R, it sits 6’ to my ears.
L/R are 9’ apart and are 7’ to my ears

The L/R were only slightly toed in and sounded good. I don’t believe they have ever sounded great when pointed directly at the sweet spot. (Narrow sweet spot) 

We have all set up plenty of speakers but I thought I’d ask for help.
I can not bring the speakers closer together.
Thanks in advance.

Even if someone recommends something, their room isn't your room, and even if you take their suggestion you're going to wonder if changing things would improve the sound. And then you'll change things to find out.

I’ll mark the floor as a base line and move from there.
Drastic change or small incremental changes? Large change may give another interest point, (base line). 
Perhaps I’ll point the speakers to the edge of the seat back. 
Hears a question I forgot to ask. The right speaker is in close proximity of a wall and the left speaker is almost out in space, how would one compensate for this? Aim the left speaker more towards the seat?

[ttocs]

This is how I setup my speakers to be where they are now and how they are toed. It's all by ear.

Watch the entire video for lots of good stuff, but go to 18:05 in the video to get to the part specifically about speaker setup. It sounds crazy, but it works.

[audiobill]

Try pointing them to an imaginary spot about 4’ behind your listening position….,,

[405x5]

Sept 29, 2021 21:40:18 GMT -5 novisnick said:

Thought I’d reach out to my audio friends before I start “The Speaker Dance”. 
I’m using my Paradigm Studio 100’s v5 and have recently purchased a new chair. It sits closer to my center channel.


Distances;
center channel is on the same plane as my L/R, it sits 6’ to my ears.
L/R are 9’ apart and are 7’ to my ears

The L/R were only slightly toed in and sounded good. I don’t believe they have ever sounded great when pointed directly at the sweet spot. (Narrow sweet spot) 

We have all set up plenty of speakers but I thought I’d ask for help.
I can not bring the speakers closer together.
Thanks in advance.

Toe-in tips always are a tough one for me….a new sweet spot chair can change dramatically how you’re hearing if it changes the height also (tweeter) 

[KeithL]

The only advice that will do you any good about speaker toe-in is "try it and see".

There are simply too many factors involved to even guess what will work, with your speakers, in your room, without trying a few different options.

One recommendation I would give would be to NOT discount any of the possibilities.

For example, while it may seem odd, in some cases an extreme toe-in, where the speakers are toed in so far their line of sight crosses in front of the listening position, may actually work well.

There is also no "proper and completely effective" way to compensate for speakers being different distances from the side walls.

However, one piece of advice I would offer is that you're looking at that issue the wrong way.

Because the side walls are at different distances, the reflections from the side walls are going to be delayed by different amounts, and there's nothing you can do to fix that.

Changing the toe-in on one speaker will create a situation where that side has a different balance of direct/reflected sound than the other... which will probably sound odd... and it won't actually fix the problem.

What you want to do is to minimize the OVERALL amount of sound that's reflected off the side walls... thus making the imbalance, which you cannot actually correct, less important.

You could try a major toe-in... to try to minimize the amount of sound reflected from the side walls on both speakers...

If both side walls are there, but at very different distances, you could try adding damping material to both... again minimizing reflections from both walls and so minimizing the importance of the imbalance between them.

(And, if you really have a wall on one side, and open space on the other, then putting the correct amount of sound absorbing material on the wall that's there can reduce its contribution to "match the contribution of the wall that isn't there".)

Sept 29, 2021 22:24:01 GMT -5 novisnick said:

Sept 29, 2021 22:10:49 GMT -5 monkumonku said:

Even if someone recommends something, their room isn't your room, and even if you take their suggestion you're going to wonder if changing things would improve the sound. And then you'll change things to find out.

I’ll mark the floor as a base line and move from there.
Drastic change or small incremental changes? Large change may give another interest point, (base line). 
Perhaps I’ll point the speakers to the edge of the seat back. 
Hears a question I forgot to ask. The right speaker is in close proximity of a wall and the left speaker is almost out in space, how would one compensate for this? Aim the left speaker more towards the seat?

[405x5]

Sept 30, 2021 7:38:57 GMT -5 405x5 said:

Sept 29, 2021 21:40:18 GMT -5 novisnick said:

Thought I’d reach out to my audio friends before I start “The Speaker Dance”. 
I’m using my Paradigm Studio 100’s v5 and have recently purchased a new chair. It sits closer to my center channel.


Distances;
center channel is on the same plane as my L/R, it sits 6’ to my ears.
L/R are 9’ apart and are 7’ to my ears

The L/R were only slightly toed in and sounded good. I don’t believe they have ever sounded great when pointed directly at the sweet spot. (Narrow sweet spot) 

We have all set up plenty of speakers but I thought I’d ask for help.
I can not bring the speakers closer together.
Thanks in advance.

Toe-in tips always are a tough one for me….a new sweet spot chair can change dramatically how you’re hearing if it changes the height also (tweeter) 
View Attachment

As you can see, this loudspeaker makes it a challenge to talk about toe-in per se.
Besides it’s prismatic shape, there is an additional feature (for those unaware) that adds even more to the mix.
There is a remote control that alters the output of the panels, hence broadening Or narrowing the soundstage.
The tweeters and midrange only are affected by the remote leaving the woofer section constant.
While the focus shifts, the output of the system remains constant.

[KeithL]

In that case you can probably minimize the left/right imbalance by setting the sound stage to be as narrow as possible.

(The more sound is directed to the sides, the wider the sound stage will seem, but the more effect the difference between the two side walls will make.)

I think you'll find that they expect you to place those speakers flush... and use the control in place of playing with the toe-in.

Another thing to consider is that, because of their shape, those speakers are going to have more sound that wraps around the sides, then reaches you after bouncing off the wall behind the speaker...

So, compared to other speakers, your setup will be more sensitive to absorbing material on the wall behind the speakers... and where it is located... and whether that is symmetrical between left and right.

(A significant amount of the sound you hear will have wrapped around the sides of the speaker and reached you after reflecting off the wall behind them.)

Sept 30, 2021 9:20:42 GMT -5 405x5 said:

Sept 30, 2021 7:38:57 GMT -5 405x5 said:

Toe-in tips always are a tough one for me….a new sweet spot chair can change dramatically how you’re hearing if it changes the height also (tweeter) 
View Attachment

As you can see, this loudspeaker makes it a challenge to talk about toe-in per se.
Besides it’s prismatic shape, there is an additional feature (for those unaware) that adds even more to the mix.
There is a remote control that alters the output of the panels, hence broadening Or narrowing the soundstage.
The tweeters and midrange only are affected by the remote leaving the woofer section constant.
While the focus shifts, the output of the system remains constant.

[klinemj]

How about moving the new chair to the position of the old one.



Mark

[novisnick]

Sept 30, 2021 9:28:41 GMT -5 klinemj said:

How about moving the new chair to the position of the old one.



Mark

I should have mentioned that not only can I not move the chair but the back doesn’t cover my head & ears as much as the old one. The chair is also a couple of inches higher, therefore putting my ears higher in the space.

[405x5]

Sept 30, 2021 9:27:48 GMT -5 KeithL said:

In that case you can probably minimize the left/right imbalance by setting the sound stage to be as narrow as possible.

(The more sound is directed to the sides, the wider the sound stage will seem, but the more effect the difference between the two side walls will make.)

I think you'll find that they expect you to place those speakers flush... and use the control in place of playing with the toe-in.

Another thing to consider is that, because of their shape, those speakers are going to have more sound that wraps around the sides, then reaches you after bouncing off the wall behind the speaker...

So, compared to other speakers, your setup will be more sensitive to absorbing material on the wall behind the speakers... and where it is located... and whether that is symmetrical between left and right.

(A significant amount of the sound you hear will have wrapped around the sides of the speaker and reached you after reflecting off the wall behind them.)

Sept 30, 2021 9:20:42 GMT -5 405x5 said:

As you can see, this loudspeaker makes it a challenge to talk about toe-in per se.
Besides it’s prismatic shape, there is an additional feature (for those unaware) that adds even more to the mix.
There is a remote control that alters the output of the panels, hence broadening Or narrowing the soundstage.
The tweeters and midrange only are affected by the remote leaving the woofer section constant.
While the focus shifts, the output of the system remains constant.

It was interesting (though short lived) experimenting with altering between the three available output levels for those panels. I maintain the “Omni” mode…all panels equal output. Already, the systems are on a long wall with a 12 foot center and a very potent center in the middle of that.
Speakers are flush, yes.
The center channel output is much more powerful and effective over the relatively subtle effect of the image control. When these systems were introduced, stereo still reigned and I thought, little consideration was given to running them in a surround system.