Need AMP Help from some of the Emotiva Old Schoolers

[PrtacticalPrpr]

[posted this in the Bas-X amp section by mistake; reposting here]

I've recently upgraded to the RMC-1 from an XMC-1, and am targeting a 9.2.4 Atmos configuration. I have Klipsch 7.2 THX Ultra 2 HT Speakers and will be adding Klipsch Pro THX Ultra 3 ceiling speakers for Atmos. My current AMP's consist of a Benchmark AHB2 for L & R, and 4x UPA-200's in the old 7.2 config. Here is where I am stuck. I have been looking at several options to go from my current 7.2 to 9.2.4 configuration and am, struggling with giving up my UPA-200's versus what I see on the market now-a-days. Here are the considerations that have crossed my mind.



Replace the UPA-200's with:



1. A couple of Build your own XPA Gen 3 (7 & 4) in a non-stereo module configuration and the AHB2 for L & R.



2. Use 1x UPA for the center, and use 3x UPA's for the non-Atmos speakers and buy another amp to run the Atmos; thinking XPA Gen 3 or NAD or Outlaw, etc.



3. Or go with all NAD, or Outlaw, etc. keeping only the AHB2.



My biggest consideration is, am I really getting that much more in experience from replacing the UPA-200's for home theater? These are actually decent amps. I just don't know if its worth spending $4k - $8k more when I already have a ABH2 in the mix for pure music enjoyment.



Would love to get some opinions here. What do you all think?

[AudioHTIT]

Posted on your other thread, but repeating the post here:

So using all my fingers on both hands I get that you have 10 channels of amplification now, yes? Then for a 9.2.4 system you need 13 channels? (a 3 channel deficit) I'd be inclined to keep what you have, especially if it's working well for you now. I'm also a fan of only changing one thing at a time (or as few as possible).

I'm not familiar with the AHB2, but it seems an XPA-3 would meet your channel needs and give you a couple options for hook up. Either way use the UPA-200s for Surround, Rear, and Height (8 channels), then option one: use the XPA-3 for Sides and Center (keeping the AHB2 on LR), or option two: use the XPA-3 for LCR, and use the AHB2 for Sides. If you really like the XPA-3, you could even upgrade it to an XPA-5 for LCRS, and sell the AHB (or start off that way).

I'm sure there are lots of options but I guess that's a variation on your #1.

Edit: If you want this thread you should delete the other one (the drop down menu with the gear).

[PrtacticalPrpr]

Thanks. I deleted the other thread post. It's hard for me to decide. The UPA-200 doesn't have the balanced inputs, but not sure I'm losing much there. Curious if some that have the XPA Gen3 and had or still have the UPA's could add perspective?

[leonski]

From a strictly MATH and 'what's available' standpoint? When you have so many channels? the number of combinations rises to Astronomical Levels. And for ME, gets bewildering.

I don't know how much REAL power your speakers need....though Klipsch is generally fairly sensitive.....(efficient, if you MUST)

For THAT reason and others, I side with AUDIOHTIT in this matter. All you need is 3 channels MORE of amplification? And than either delete or re-purpose existing amps, which

It sppears you like.....So anything I recommended would be stuff I LIKE which doesnt' mean much to you.

But for sure? I wouldn't worry about 'lack' of Balanced Inputs. At that price point and in an amp which is NOT native balanced? Just another opportunity for bad things to happen

and a potential (not a big one) point of fail.....

[garbulky]

I wouldn't upgrade to the gen 3s. I see little reason to other than to consolidate your equipment into one box.

[leonski]

Fewer 'boxes' reduces the need for Dozens of outlets scattered about.....but might make it MORE important to have 2 or 3 (depending....or more) 20 amp circuits and whole house surge protection......

The G3s have one major improvement. That SMPS is a lot lighter than the large Toroid it takes to support the same power with a linear PS.....2 or 3 kw of amp AND TV/ PrePro on a single 15 amp circuit is

a complete non-starter. 40 or 50 lb amplifiers are a Real PIA to move and setup....

[AudioHTIT]

Oct 26, 2021 18:46:22 GMT -5 PrtacticalPrpr said:

Thanks. I deleted the other thread post. It's hard for me to decide. The UPA-200 doesn't have the balanced inputs, but not sure I'm losing much there. Curious if some that have the XPA Gen3 and had or still have the UPA's could add perspective?

I like balanced connections as well, and I might make the change just because I like XLR connectors better, but I doubt you’d hear the difference (unless your cables were really long), and that seemed to be your criteria.

[housetech]

XPA for effects is a bit pricy, why not BasX-4 for Atmos? It's more than enough power.

[Gary Cook]

Oct 26, 2021 23:48:16 GMT -5 housetech said:

XPA for effects is a bit pricy, why not BasX-4 for Atmos? It's more than enough power.

That’s the easiest effective solution, using a BasX4 for the 4 ceiling speakers.

If you wanted upgrade the centre speaker amp (centres are very important) then a 3 channel XPA would be my suggestion, and use the other 2 channels for sides.

UPA-200’s are good amps, their value for money was unbeatable, I see no reason to swap them out, it would cost a lot more to get very little improvement.

Cheers
Gary

[PrtacticalPrpr]

Oct 26, 2021 19:43:07 GMT -5 leonski said:

From a strictly MATH and 'what's available' standpoint? When you have so many channels? the number of combinations rises to Astronomical Levels. And for ME, gets bewildering.

I don't know how much REAL power your speakers need....though Klipsch is generally fairly sensitive.....(efficient, if you MUST)

For THAT reason and others, I side with AUDIOHTIT in this matter. All you need is 3 channels MORE of amplification? And than either delete or re-purpose existing amps, which

It sppears you like.....So anything I recommended would be stuff I LIKE which doesnt' mean much to you.

But for sure? I wouldn't worry about 'lack' of Balanced Inputs. At that price point and in an amp which is NOT native balanced? Just another opportunity for bad things to happen

and a potential (not a big one) point of fail.....

Thanks everyone for the responses. I really value and appreciate the input. Why I am considering other AMP options as compliments or replacements is less a cost consideration and more so a concern of the degree of diminishing returns. Am I getting minimally better sound out of my speakers and RMC-1 by upgrading the amps for home theater? Or is there truly a significant quality in sound difference to be gained? These are the core questions I am hoping to answer. Is it worth putting money towards the amps or other items for the home theater? Below is additional details on my speakers. Not sure if it helps, but figured I'd include it if those with more experience had more input to share. I never pass on a chance to learn from others.



KL-650-THX

CROSSOVER FREQUENCY: 1400Hz

DIMENSIONS: 15" (38.1cm) H x 17" (43.2cm) W x 12.5" (31.8cm) D (w/ grille)

ENCLOSURE MATERIAL: MDF

ENCLOSURE TYPE: Bass reflex via front-firing port

FINISHES: Galaxy Black cabinet with Black anodized aluminum fascia

FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 48Hz-20kHz (+-)3dB

HIGH FREQUENCY HORN: 10" x 6" rectangular 90(o) x 60(o) Tractrix(r) Horn

INPUT CONNECTIONS: 2 sets of binding post speaker terminals (connected via brass strap jumpers)

MOUNTING: 4-bolt pattern, 1/4"-20 thread

NOMINAL IMPEDANCE: 8 ohms compatible

POWER HANDLING: 150 w max continuous (600 w peak)

SENSITIVITY: 97dB @ 2.83 volts / 1 meter

TWEETER: 1" (2.5cm) magnetically shielded, titanium dome compression driver with 9.6oz ceramic magnet structure

WEIGHT: 39 lbs. (17.7kg)

WOOFER: Two 6.5" (16.5cm) magnetically shielded, Cerametallic(tm) cone, cast aluminum frame drivers


KL-525-THX

CROSSOVER FREQUENCY: 1500Hz

DIMENSIONS: 12.75" (32.4cm) H x 16" (40.6cm) W x 12.5" (31.8cm) D (w/ grille)

ENCLOSURE MATERIAL: MDF

ENCLOSURE TYPE: Sealed

FINISHES: Galaxy Black cabinet with Black anodized aluminum fascia

FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 80Hz-20kHz (+-)3dB

HIGH FREQUENCY HORN: 10" x 6" rectangular 90 x 60 Tractrix Horn

INPUT CONNECTIONS: 2 sets of binding post speaker terminals (connected via brass strap jumpers)

MOUNTING: 4-bolt pattern, 1/4"-20 thread

NOMINAL IMPEDANCE: 8 ohms compatible

POWER HANDLING: 100 w max continuous (400 w peak)

SENSITIVITY: 94dB @ 2.83 volts / 1 meter

TWEETER: 1" (2.5cm) magnetically shielded, titanium dome compression driver with 9.6oz ceramic magnet structure

WEIGHT: 32 lbs. (14.5kg)

WOOFER: Two 5.25" (13.3cm) magnetically shielded, Cerametallic cone, cast aluminum frame drivers


KS-525-THX

CROSSOVER FREQUENCY: 2100Hz

DIMENSIONS: 13.75" (35cm) H x 13" (33cm) W x 8.5" (21.6cm) D

ENCLOSURE MATERIAL: MDF

ENCLOSURE TYPE: Sealed

FINISHES: Galaxy Black cabinet with Black anodized aluminum fascia

FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 80Hz-20kHz (+-)3dB

HIGH FREQUENCY HORN: 5" square 90 x 60 Tractrix Horns in a WDST(tm) Array

INPUT CONNECTIONS: 2 sets of binding post speaker terminals (connected via brass strap jumpers)

MOUNTING: 2-bolt pattern, 1/4"-20 thread

NOMINAL IMPEDANCE: 8 ohms compatible

POWER HANDLING: 100 w max continuous (400 w peak)

SENSITIVITY: 96dB @ 2.83 volts / 1 meter

TWEETER: Two 1" (2.5cm) magnetically shielded, titanium dome compression drivers with neodymium magnet structures

WEIGHT: 20 lbs. (9.1kg)

WOOFER: Two 5.25" (13.3cm) magnetically shielded, Cerametallic cone, cast aluminum frame drivers


KW-120-THX

AMPLIFIER: Use only with KA-1000-THX
DIMENSIONS: 20.25" (51.4cm) H x 17.75" (45.1cm) W x 17.75" (45.1cm) D (w/ grille)

ENCLOSURE MATERIAL: MDF

ENCLOSURE TYPE: Bass reflex via front-firing slot port

FINISHES: Galaxy Black cabinet with Black anodized aluminum fascia

FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 20-200Hz 3dB

NOMINAL IMPEDANCE: 8 ohms

POWER HANDLING: See KA-1000-THX specifications

SENSITIVITY: 130dB @ 30Hz, 122dB @ 20Hz, 112dB @ 15Hz 1/8 space, 1m (2 enclosures side-by-side per THX Ultra2)

WEIGHT: 80 lbs. (36.3kg)

WOOFER: 12" (30.5cm) front-firing, Cermetallic(tm) cone, cast aluminum frame driver with a 240oz ceramic magnet structure


KA-1000-THX

AMPLIFIER: High-Efficiency Class D

AUTO POWER ON: 2 second ON delay, 15 minute OFF delay

DIMENSIONS: 4.75" (12.1cm) H x 17.5" (44.5cm) W x 12.25" (31.1cm) D

ENCLOSURE TYPE: Use only with KW-120-THX subwoofer enclosures (either one or two)

EXPORT VOLTAGE: 230 VAC 50/60Hz

FEATURES: THX On/Off, Boundary Gain Compensation On/Off

FINISH: Black anodized aluminum

FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 20Hz-1kHz +0/-3dB

INPUTS: 2 Gold-plated RCA phono jacks

LOW PASS CROSSOVER: Continuously variable from 40-120Hz, 24dB/octave slope above 120Hz (non-THX mode)

OUTPUTS: 2 Gold-plated RCA phono jacks (unfiltered) / 2 Speakon(r) NL2 jacks

PHASE: Continuously variable from 0 to 180 degrees

POWER HANDLING: FTC Rated Power: 500W into 8 ohms, 1000W into 4 ohms

VOLTAGE: 110/120 VAC 60Hz

WEIGHT: 27 lbs. (12.3kg)




THX-5002-L IN-CEILING SPEAKER

2-way In-ceiling

Frequency Response

45 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 3dB

Power Handling

100W/400W

Sensitivity

93dB

Impedance

8 Ohms compatible

Crossover Frequency

1200 Hz & 1800 Hz

High Frequency Driver

1” Titanium tweeter in a 7.5 x 3.75” 60-90-110 VCT 45º Skewed horn

Low Frequency Driver

Two 5.25” Cerametallic Woofers

Enclosure Type

Bass Reflex via 1.6” diameter port - Front Flush with Ceiling

Hole dimensions (mm/in, HxWxD)

Ø13.25” (33.7cm)

Dimensions

Ø15.25” (38.7cm)





THX-5002-S IN-CEILING SPEAKER

2-way In-ceiling

Frequency Response

45 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 3dB

Power Handling

100W/400W

Sensitivity

93dB

Impedance

8 Ohms

Crossover Frequency

2500Hz

High Frequency Driver

Two 1” Titanium tweeters in vertically stacked tractrix horns

Low Frequency Driver

Two 5.25” Cerametallic Woofers

Enclosure Type

Bass Reflex via 1.6” diameter port - Front Flush with Ceiling

Hole dimensions (mm/in, HxWxD)

Ø13.25” (33.7cm)

Dimensions

Ø15.25” (38.7cm)

Mounting Depth

9.5” (24.1cm)

Weight

11 lbs. (5.0kg)

[creimes]

A good option if you don't want to break the bank and have XLR connections is the Outlaw 7000X, I may be biased though

[leonski]

A WORD about specs, if I may? Forget 'em. (2 words?)

For example.....And there is MORE than one to be sure.

Crossover. They give a frequency. OK so far. But NO slope. And no mention of high and low pass.

My speakers? Are crossed around 600hz. So far so good. But the WOOFER end is crossed lower and has a 12db / octave reduction in level

while the TWEETER end crossover a little Higher and is at 6 db / octave. The slight 'gap' fills in nicely all on its own.

The only reason I know this is that I'm considering gutting the crossover and starting over with a MiniDSP and the above will be the 'starting point'......

KLIPSCH seems to be a little optimistic concering real speaker sensitivity. Power handling is nearly meaningless.

Right now Boom is looking to review some speakers......Magnat, by name. they have a listed response to 16 hz. If real? Simply Amazing.......But in the literature,

NO tolerance is listed so while they may actually sort of respond to 16hz (a real physics problem) I may not actually be either useful OR musical or even useful in an Effects Movie.....

So? ENJOY the sound. But certainly don't get wrapped up in the 'specs'.....It'll only make you as nuts as ME......

[PrtacticalPrpr]

Thanks for the perspective, and the smile it gave me. I quite rather like being a little nuts myself. Lol. I realize every speaker will have nuances if closely measured, but in this case the details were shared to provide a general perspective as a baseline range to help with any added opinions that could be offered to help me through my audio quest madness for the mythical, but elusive fully emmersed experience. (hoorah for run on sentences)

[housetech]

Oct 27, 2021 22:40:44 GMT -5 leonski said:

A WORD about specs, if I may? Forget 'em. (2 words?)

For example.....And there is MORE than one to be sure.

Crossover. They give a frequency. OK so far. But NO slope. And no mention of high and low pass.

My speakers? Are crossed around 600hz. So far so good. But the WOOFER end is crossed lower and has a 12db / octave reduction in level

while the TWEETER end crossover a little Higher and is at 6 db / octave. The slight 'gap' fills in nicely all on its own.

The only reason I know this is that I'm considering gutting the crossover and starting over with a MiniDSP and the above will be the 'starting point'......

KLIPSCH seems to be a little optimistic concering real speaker sensitivity. Power handling is nearly meaningless.

Right now Boom is looking to review some speakers......Magnat, by name. they have a listed response to 16 hz. If real? Simply Amazing.......But in the literature,

NO tolerance is listed so while they may actually sort of respond to 16hz (a real physics problem) I may not actually be either useful OR musical or even useful in an Effects Movie.....

So? ENJOY the sound. But certainly don't get wrapped up in the 'specs'.....It'll only make you as nuts as ME......

A tweeter array in a waveguide? that's a little weird, just sayin.

[leonski]

Oct 28, 2021 1:00:26 GMT -5 PrtacticalPrpr said:

Thanks for the perspective, and the smile it gave me. I quite rather like being a little nuts myself. Lol. I realize every speaker will have nuances if closely measured, but in this case the details were shared to provide a general perspective as a baseline range to help with any added opinions that could be offered to help me through my audio quest madness for the mythical, but elusive fully emmersed experience. (hoorah for run on sentences)

You are an Optimist.    You'd say.....if I can guess....that such specs are 'informative' and 'helpful'.    

I'm a cynic and take the view that they are potentially misleading and may not even be completely accurate.   

Sometimes knowing how these specs 'fit together' is as important at the spec itself....

AND that in many cases, nobody but the manufacturer knows how such numbers are arrived at.

This with the exception of the simple dimensions of the speaker.....and its Weight.....