MC-1

[KeithL]

I can tell you about some of the well known "oddnesses" with the AppleTV... 
(Note that, for all of its quirks, the AppleTV is one of the few streaming devices that widely supports Atmos, and is one of the most popular streaming devices around.) 

For one thing, most Blu-Ray players can be set to output "bitstream"... which would be the preferred setting with most pre/pros (including ours) in most situations.
This setting basically means "just send whatever is on the disc, or the incoming stream, to the processor and let the processor decode it".
For whatever reason the AppleTV DOES NOT offer this option... and instead insists on "forcing the signal into a particular format" before outputting it.
The default output on the AppleTV is "Multi-PCM", or you can choose to have it to output everything as surround, but then the AppleTV may re-encode the signal if it chooses to.

For another thing the AppleTV is well known for causing various HDMI-CEC issues.
The HDMI-CEC control signal is actually carried by a separate wire in the HDMI cable... which has a direct connection between all of your devices that support HDMI-CEC.
(So, for example, if your source device decides to send a "change input" command to your TV, the pre/pro CANNOT prevent or "block" it, even if the signal goes through the pre/pro, and HDMI-CEC is disabled on the pre/pro.)
The AppleTV has become so notorious for sending "rogue CEC commands" that several companies actually sell little HDMI adapters for it that physically disconnect the wire that carries HDMI-CEC commands.

Another "feature" that can cause problems is that, whenever you reboot it, the AppleTV will automatically try to detect things like the best video mode your TV supports.
The problem is that, at least sometimes, the AppleTV will do this even if you have manually overridden some of the automatic mode options.
(So, you discover that your TV, or the long cable connecting it, has a problem with a high frame rate, and manually configure the AppleTV not to use it.
Then, one day, after you reboot the AppleTV, the problem mysteriously comes back, and you discover that the manual settings you made on the AppleTV have been reset. ) 

And, finally, there are several different models of AppleTV, and there may be internal differences between units of the same model.

And the firmware on the AppleTV is also subject to relatively frequent updates.

And, for both of these reasons, problems may be fixed, and new problems may appear, after a firmware update, or with one model and not another...

And different models, or even different units of the same model, may not act exactly the same.

(This is no big surprise... but these are things you should be aware of.)

Feb 14, 2024 23:37:48 GMT -5 xymox said:

I contacted support with the questions i posted above. I wanted to sum up what i learned.

There are clear known issues with HDMI and AppleTV. I was unclear on exactly what these were on a deep tech level, but, apparently Apple did a update between when they tested the MC-1 and when it shipped. One of the feature upgrades that Apple did to the AppleTV This has caused various issues including sync issues, pops and clicks and drop outs of both sound and pic as things resync. From my experience it can leave a Sony OLED displaying snow sometimes.

They are working on a firmware update to address these issues. They do not have a exact timeline but "Hopefully a month".. So a solution is a bit off yet

Thier recommendation for hook up *for now* is AppleTV > Sony OLED > eARC out > MC-1

After thier fix it should be possible to go back to the normal hook up of AppleTV > MC-1 > Port 2 > TV

While a 1 foot cable *should* work a 1M is a better idea for some technical reasons.

I am thinking that unhooking HDMI to the MC-1 and using a Optical cable from the TV to the MC-1 would be the most stable, but, obviously, reduces the surround formats and no Atmos.

[xymox]

Hi KeithL,

Thank you for responding.

I have 325 AppleTV X systems deployed as of this week. These are deployed in mostly high end systems. Typically these have a Datasat or Trinnov and typically have a Sony laser proj or a JVC and many are just 2ch rigs with a Sony OLED and a super high end DAC like a Wadex, dCS or CH Precision. So the systems I have experence with are atypical. I do have some hooked to Crestron DM systems that do 16x16 matrix HDMI. A lot of these systems are control by Crestron,Savant automation. These systems also have other source devices typically like a Oppo and a Kaleidescape. A lot of these have a Lumagen video processor.

In all of these systems I do not run into the issues your describing. I don't think many of these systems use CEC at all. None that i am aware of use eARC. There is of course the occasional HDMI cable issue, mostly from over priced poorly engineered cables. In fact in the 2 years of selling the ATVX the Emotiva clients are the first to ever report any issues of any kind. The Datasat and Trinnov along with the Sony's are very stable devices.

*edit*... I want to say that the Datasat and Trinnov are stable AS FAR AS HDMI DEVICES GO.. They can be finiky and a bit odd at times and every now and then require a reboot. The Datasat RS20i in my experence has been really stable going sometimes more then a year without any wierdness. I have seen the Trinnovs be a bit sketchy at times. This is with ALL HDMI sources, not just ATV.

I also want to point out that the MC-1 sounds AWESOME. For the money, wowee.. ( High Five )..  I am sure you will work out the HDMI issue with a firmware update.

Feb 15, 2024 10:00:27 GMT -5 KeithL said:

For one thing, most Blu-Ray players can be set to output "bitstream"... which would be the preferred setting with most pre/pros (including ours) in most situations.
This setting basically means "just send whatever is on the disc, or the incoming stream, to the processor and let the processor decode it".
For whatever reason the AppleTV DOES NOT offer this option... and instead insists on "forcing the signal into a particular format" before outputting it.
The default output on the AppleTV is "Multi-PCM", or you can choose to have it to output everything as surround, but then the AppleTV may re-encode the signal if it chooses to.

AppleTV uses Dolby MAT. This advanced protocol can confuze some audio devices as its not as deployed in source devices as "bitstream" formats. There is a lot of deep discussions about AppleTV and its use of MAT to do ATMOS and other formats. The metadata of MAT 2 can be tricky apparently for some surround decoders to correctly interpret. There are some surround decoders for example that do not display ATMOS while in fact correctly decoding atmos. Simple firmware bug to not light up the indicator. Because MAT is not as common it does not seem to get the same testing that a "bitstream" protocol would. You would think in certification these things would be tested. Not sure how Dolby and DTS work now, but back in the day before each model could have a Dolby / DTS logo it had to be tested by Dolby / DTS and certified. These days seem gone.

YES.. I would love to have a bitstream option. Mostly because it would then also provide some high end audio only formats.

As far as i know, Apple is conforming to the HDMI standards, at least thats what i see with my protocol analyzer and test gear like my Rohde & Schwarz RTP & ZNB. A scan of various AppleTV forums does not show anything that is really stand out for the current firmware with various devices from sound bars to rcvrs. You would have a better feel for this tho because you make a lot of HDMI sinks.

YES.. Over the lifetime of HDMI going back to HDMI 1, there have been a lot of issues with compliance and even the standards. HDMI was created by lawyers trying to secure content with encryption. HDCP was always the main thing. It got pushed out into the world before it was really done. ZERO doubt that legacy still exists today. As I am certain you know, its a pain in the ***.. Changes are constantly coming along and to implement these which sometimes come without notice you need a huge team of engineers who can work at the speed of light. So smaller companies have a harder time keeping up with these changes. People like Apple push out "legal" HDMI stuff without regard for if the installed base of devices can handle the feature change. Apple dropped QMS VRR out of no where and i am surprized it did not break more gear.

YES, I agree Apple has its quirks. So does all HDMI gear. This is because of a standard that really too broad with too many options IMHO..

For another thing the AppleTV is well known for causing various HDMI-CEC issues.
The HDMI-CEC control signal is actually carried by a separate wire in the HDMI cable... which has a direct connection between all of your devices that support HDMI-CEC.
(So, for example, if your source device decides to send a "change input" command to your TV, the pre/pro CANNOT prevent or "block" it, even if the signal goes through the pre/pro, and HDMI-CEC is disabled on the pre/pro.)
The AppleTV has become so notorious for sending "rogue CEC commands" that several companies actually sell little HDMI adapters for it that physically disconnect the wire that carries HDMI-CEC commands.

You could be 100% correct. I simply don't run into system where CEC or eARC is used.

Interesting. So I have not looked at CEC between devices. I have not looked at that protocol. I would *assume* that when you turn it off on the ATV its off ?

Rouge CEC commands is a pretty big statement. Where can i read about this ?

I could see this protocol getting things confuzed tho. I mean a TV and a pre/pro has a volume. I have not studied the CEC protocol. I will tho.

Another "feature" that can cause problems is that, whenever you reboot it, the AppleTV will automatically try to detect things like the best video mode your TV supports.
The problem is that, at least sometimes, the AppleTV will do this even if you have manually overridden some of the automatic mode options.
(So, you discover that your TV, or the long cable connecting it, has a problem with a high frame rate, and manually configure the AppleTV not to use it.
Then, one day, after you reboot the AppleTV, the problem mysteriously comes back, and you discover that the manual settings you made on the AppleTV have been reset. )

Hmmm... I have a lot of these devices deployed and i have not seen this. But I deal with systems that have high end gear and good HDMI cables. My recommended settings in the box insert are 4K SDR match frame rate on, dynamic range off and 4:4:4.. I can see what your saying tho. I hate automagical devcies and Apple is known for automagical. In fairness tho I have seen what you describe in other source devices, not just Apple.

I have seen a TV ignore the SDR setting tho. LGs seem to ignore the HDR metadata flages. But HDR is a even worse mess then HDMI.

And, finally, there are several different models of AppleTV, and there may be internal differences between units of the same model.

Yes, just like your products you use a number of HDMI chip sets and so each is a bit different.

I use ONLY the A2169 ATV. As I send these off for SMD board rework changing 30 components I would know if there were internal changes on this model, so far I have never seen one. Agin tho, I only work with the A2169.

And the firmware on the AppleTV is also subject to relatively frequent updates.

Yes, that always scares me. Who KNOWS what is coming next. Recommed setting, auto update off..  BUT its also nice tho as Apple is constantlly adding features and fixing issues. Your products also get firmware updates and we all know firmware updates can be a double edge sword.

And, for both of these reasons, problems may be fixed, and new problems may appear, after a firmware update, or with one model and not another...

Yep... For me there is always a "golden" firmware for any device. Newer is NOT always better.

(This is no big surprise... but these are things you should be aware of.)

I guess what surprized me was the seriousness of the issues with the MC-1 and the AppleTV. Obviously this also greatly concerns you as well. The timeline of a fix is also a issue I hear from my clients who are using a MC-1. They are frustrated. The clicks and pops, the loss of HDMI sync, and a need to power cycle or reboot the ATV is really a issue for them. I hope a solution comes soon. Hopefully this is not a chip set issue and the issues are more firmware fixable.

Reading this thread I am a bit confuzed why port 1 and 2 are different on the output. Maybe you could explain this is technical terms ? Also maybe you could go over exactly what is going on from the AppleTV that is causing the other issues ? Like what protocol and failures are occuring. What exactly is the issue in exact technical terms. If Apple is doing something wrong, it would be good to know exactly what that is.

I do understand tho completely. HDMI is a pain in the ***..

[xymox]

Separate, most likely stupid, question.

AC-4..

Does this require the right chips ? Or can this be updated firmware ? Or maybe I am way confuzed and it works currently ? As far as i can see its for OTA broadcast, but does that mean with the right TV + Antenna it would spit out a AC-4 bitstream ? Or does the TV decode / transcode it into a form a pre/pro would understand ? Does AC-4 have any application in streaming ?

developer.dolby.com/technology/dolby-audio/dolby-ac-4/

[davidl]

New firmware available for the MC-1. See this thread emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/61212/current-version-mc1-mr1l-firmware

[ttocs]

Feb 14, 2024 23:37:48 GMT -5 xymox said:

I contacted support with the questions i posted above. I wanted to sum up what i learned.

There are clear known issues with HDMI and AppleTV. I was unclear on exactly what these were on a deep tech level, but, apparently Apple did a update between when they tested the MC-1 and when it shipped. One of the feature upgrades that Apple did to the AppleTV has caused various issues including sync issues, pops and clicks and drop outs of both sound and pic as things resync. From my experience it can leave a Sony OLED displaying snow sometimes. I work with other TVs and processors and do not know of this issue with other systems, so hopefully its a firmware update. Other hardware like the Roku seem to work fine.

They are working on a firmware update to address these issues. They do not have a exact timeline but "Hopefully a month".. So a solution is a bit off yet

Their recommendation for hook up *for now* is AppleTV > Sony OLED > eARC out > MC-1

After their fix it should be possible to go back to the normal hook up of AppleTV > MC-1 > Port 2 > TV

While a 1 foot cable *should* work a 1M is a better idea for some technical reasons.

I am thinking that unhooking HDMI to the MC-1 and using a Optical cable from the TV to the MC-1 would be the most stable, but, obviously, reduces the surround formats and no Atmos.

They recommend turning off CEC and other settings on the AppleTV to minimize the issues for now, So:

settings > Remote & Device > Control TVs & Recievers > OFF  

Settings > Remotes and devices > Volume control > OFF..

Settings > Video & Audio > Match content > OFF

Settings > Video & Audio > Navigation clicks > OFF

I am one who's had encounters with ATV4K using CEC to do things it was not supposed to be able to do when CEC was "disabled". This behavior stopped once I used a Lindy CEC-Less device which has the CEC pin removed.

The most aggressive currently enabled CEC device I currently have in my system is a LG 77G3 which keeps wanting to communicate to other willing participants if no Lindy device is used for them, like a UB820 and Roku Ultra. But again, using a Lindy device kills the CEC for those sources as well. I don't use a Lindy between the LG and processor. I've tried with/without a Lindy for the LG 77G3 and found no difference either way, so I choose to keep the HDMI connection simple without.

[xymox]

Feb 28, 2024 23:06:55 GMT -5 davidl said:

New firmware available for the MC-1. See this thread emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/61212/current-version-mc1-mr1l-firmware

 Does anyone know if this fixed the AppleTV + MC-1 issues ? Does this mean I no longer need to use the published ATV recommended settings from Emotiva ? Do I recommend clients keep all the AppleTV work around settings and hook up ? IE To hook the ATV to the TV and then use EARC ? Disable CEC, stay in the same frame rate/avoid frame rate changes ?

I have really checked all the installs I have with the AppleTV X. 341 shipped as of friday. Out of 341 the ONLY issues reported are the ones hooked to a MC-1. Trinnov, Datasat, others, all hook up normally ( ATV > Surround processor > Display ) and i do not have any reports of lost sound, snow or other related issues. I am hearing from MC-1 users reports of issues with Atmos from Netflix. WHich is odd and I don't know if that is really MC-1 related. These clients are hooked up per Emotiva recommended layout ATV > TV > EARC > MC-1 and with various recommended settings.

I have advised the clients of the new firmware. Usally USB firmware is best done via a PC. Formatting the USB with FAT, not FAT32 and getting JUST the firmware file on the stick can be tricky with a Apple as Apple tends to put other files on. I may offer these cleints a pre done USB stick with the firmware overnighted to help them get things working correctly.

The release notes in the above post do not mention anything other then extended muting. This would not seem to address all the known issues the MC-1 has working with the ATV. SO if this firmware does not address these issues, I don't want to put the clients thru a firmware update until we have the right firmware.

[xymox]

Feb 28, 2024 23:54:19 GMT -5 ttocs said:

Feb 14, 2024 23:37:48 GMT -5 xymox said:

I am one who's had encounters with ATV4K using CEC to do things it was not supposed to be able to do when CEC was "disabled". This behavior stopped once I used a Lindy CEC-Less device which has the CEC pin removed.

The most aggressive currently enabled CEC device I currently have in my system is a LG 77G3 which keeps wanting to communicate to other willing participants if no Lindy device is used for them, like a UB820 and Roku Ultra. But again, using a Lindy device kills the CEC for those sources as well. I don't use a Lindy between the LG and processor. I've tried with/without a Lindy for the LG 77G3 and found no difference either way, so I choose to keep the HDMI connection simple without.

Disabling the CEC communication physically is not something I have had to do with any other processor/tv. BUT the systems I deal with are crazy high end and all use a processor and the Trinnov and Datasat seem to ignore CEC. Maybe even strip it. I agree its a absolute answer as that will stop CEC, but, this really seems like something that should not be required. Maybe the MC-1 needs to disable all CEC. A firmware update with that functionality would be good.  For high end systems these use automation via IP/RS232/IR and so CEC is never used. For automation use, CEC should be able to be fully disabled.

[xymox]

I am sending a client the firmware on a USB stick. He does not have a PC, so I made him a 1GB USB stick freshly formatted with FAT. He has been on vacation and when he gets back will try it.

I also bought him the Lindy CEC-Less device. I will have him try this on the AppleTV to TV link and also try it on the eARC TV > MC-1 link.

He still needs answers to the questions I posted above.

"The release notes in the above post do not mention anything other then extended muting. This would not seem to address all the known issues the MC-1 has working with the ATV ?"

And is it now OK to discard the Emotiva recommended work-a-rounds for the MC-1. IE ATV > TV > eARC > MC-1 port 2. Can the ATV now be hooked up normally to the MC-1 and then port 1 to any input on the TV ?

[MagicT]

Hi,
I make Dolby Atmos music (on 8 channels) with my computer and a MOTU audio interface.
Can I use the 8 analog inputs of the BasX MC1 as 5.1.2 analog inputs?
For example, can I use AN1 red input as a Center channel and send it on the "C" output ?
Thanks in advance for your answer

[pauli]

Does anyone have comments or observations regarding the new firmware for the MC-1? Has it fixed any of your issues?

[pauli]

Apr 9, 2024 17:45:40 GMT -5 MagicT said:

Hi,
I make Dolby Atmos music (on 8 channels) with my computer and a MOTU audio interface.
Can I use the 8 analog inputs of the BasX MC1 as 5.1.2 analog inputs?
For example, can I use AN1 red input as a Center channel and send it on the "C" output ?
Thanks in advance for your answer

The MC-1 does not have this capability.

[davidl]

Apr 20, 2024 14:52:40 GMT -5 pauli said:

Does anyone have comments or observations regarding the new firmware for the MC-1? Has it fixed any of your issues?

Hi Pauli.

The new firmware has not corrected any of the issues I've highlighted before. Even though the release note says it helps with clicks/pops, I still hear them. Another issue that's still there particularly with Apple TV as most all programming is Atmos, but also with Netflix, when the MC-1 sees audio switching from 5.1 to Atmos, the MC-1 sometimes gets tripped up and either doesn't properly process the Atmos audio and/or ends up sending the wrong signal to the various audio channels. By that, I mean that say dialog for example, which should come primarily from the center channel gets sent to the surround channels. The menu colors have changed and the info pop up is slightly different but I don't notice any significant improvements. Not saying improvements aren't there, I just don't see/hear them.

In fact, there appears to be a new issue that I've noticed. I have two subwoofers so have the MC-1 configured for two subwoofers. However, when using the setup menu setting to calibrate  the speaker levels, when setting the level of subwoofer 1, the MC-1 sends the audio signal to just subwoofer 1 but when setting the level of subwoofer 2, the MC-1 sends the audio signal to both subwoofer 1 and subwoofer 2. As a result you need to power off subwoofer 1 in order to set the proper level for subwoofer 2. I don't believe the original firmware did this. As a result, I decided I couldn't trust the MC-1's handling of two subwoofers so set it back to 1 subwoofer and use a splitter to send the same signal to both subs, calibrating each manually. 

While I used EMO-Q with the original firmware, I re-ran EMO-Q with the new firmware and thought it colored the L/C/R channels in a way I don't like and made the system way too boomy. That boomy-ness may be another symptom of the dual subwoofer issue with the MC-1. But even after turning the subs back down, after A/B-ing with EMO-Q on and off, I decided I preferred the sound with EMO-Q switched out so I no longer use it. I may go back and manually EQ each channel at some point but haven't had the time to do that yet. 

Dave

[pauli]

I also get clicks and pops with Atmos. They are minor compared to the bursts of noise I sometimes get by skipping Atmos tracks from MKA files using a media player. I've learned to stop playback first, then select the next track. I doubt I'll upgrade unless I hear there is some reason to.

[pauli]

Bump. Does anyone have anything to report on the MC-1 firmware upgrade? Any improvements?

[gimza]

May 23, 2024 15:16:13 GMT -5 pauli said:

Bump. Does anyone have anything to report on the MC-1 firmware upgrade? Any improvements?

I upgraded due to some HDMI sync issues, which in the end turned out not to be the MC1 fault.
Got some errors during EMOQ calibration-data was not displayed for some speakers- I think it was fixed.
As per ocassional drops - I experience only on Apple One - once per hour? I really don’t care. New firmware didn’t fix it.
Using with Panasonic UHD player, Disney and Netflix- works flawless.

[keving]

Apr 21, 2024 18:14:26 GMT -5 davidl said:

In fact, there appears to be a new issue that I've noticed. I have two subwoofers so have the MC-1 configured for two subwoofers. However, when using the setup menu setting to calibrate  the speaker levels, when setting the level of subwoofer 1, the MC-1 sends the audio signal to just subwoofer 1 but when setting the level of subwoofer 2, the MC-1 sends the audio signal to both subwoofer 1 and subwoofer 2. As a result you need to power off subwoofer 1 in order to set the proper level for subwoofer 2. I don't believe the original firmware did this. As a result, I decided I couldn't trust the MC-1's handling of two subwoofers so set it back to 1 subwoofer and use a splitter to send the same signal to both subs, calibrating each manually. 

Dave

I'm having the same issue as Dave is having above.
In addition I fully believe that changing the "distance" of either sub does not work.
To prove this I may connect my 2 channel oscilloscope to the sub outputs and change the distance of one sub and see if the trace moves in time.

For now I'm just going to do has he has done with a single sub out to both subs.
Luckily my SVS PB1000 Pro has a built-in DSP.
Fingers crossed that I can make it "play nice" with my Emotiva SE-8 sub.

Hopefully, the great team at Emotiva will correct the issues with the MC-1 firmware soon. Please - pretty please!

[davev]

Hi and thanks for the acceptance to this forum. I'm a new owner of basx MC 1. I'm trying to get this integrated into my Control4 system. I gave my Installer the Ir and rs232 but dose,t work I'm trying to download the Control4 driver having problems doing so. Any help would be appreciated thanks

[keving]

Hey Guys and Gals at Emotiva.

MC-1, T-Zero+, B1+, A1, C1, SE-8, A2M and multiple cable owner here. 

Any updates to the MC-1 to fix the issues with the subwoofer controls(and others), or has this machine and it's owners been orphaned, abandoned and forgotten?

Just asking.

Thanks!

[davidl]

Sept 11, 2024 13:19:46 GMT -5 keving said:

Hey Guys and Gals at Emotiva.

MC-1, T-Zero+, B1+, A1, C1, SE-8, A2M and multiple cable owner here. 

Any updates to the MC-1 to fix the issues with the subwoofer controls(and others), or has this machine and it's owners been orphaned, abandoned and forgotten?

Just asking.

Thanks!

Given it’s been over a month since your post, and no responses from Emotiva to yours or any of my posts or posts from others on the MC-1 issues, it certainly seems like the latter. 

[cawgijoe]

Oct 16, 2024 20:43:28 GMT -5 davidl said:

Sept 11, 2024 13:19:46 GMT -5 keving said:

Hey Guys and Gals at Emotiva.

MC-1, T-Zero+, B1+, A1, C1, SE-8, A2M and multiple cable owner here. 

Any updates to the MC-1 to fix the issues with the subwoofer controls(and others), or has this machine and it's owners been orphaned, abandoned and forgotten?

Just asking.

Thanks!

Given it’s been over a month since your post, and no responses from Emotiva to yours or any of my posts or posts from others on the MC-1 issues, it certainly seems like the latter. 

Have you given them a call? Even though Emotiva does monitor and respond, i.e., Keith, they don’t always see everything.