Will T1+ be good in this room? (Picture)

[jacob]

We have a bit of a strange room (look at the picture), it's 17 x 12.5 feet. The speakers are placed as in the picture now, they are 160 cm (63 inches) apart, it's Dali concept 2 and I think it sounds good. Amp is TA-100. But I am thinking of upgrading to T1+ or possibly T-zero+, if that would be better for the room.

My concerns are mainly:
1. The Kallax bookcase, it is from floor to ceiling. However it is not solid, about 90% is covered with books and other stuff, but air can pass through here and there.
2. Both T1 and T-zero have rear ports and I cannot have them further out than in the picture, about 20 cm (8 inches) from the wall.

I can put sound absorbing material on the wall behind the rear ports though.

I heard that the Airmotive speakers are sensitive to placement. So do you think the T1+ would be a good upgrade in this room? Or is there a risk that the increased sound volume and lower bass might do strange things in this room?

My hopes is to have clearer sound, better soundstaging and fuller sound with more bass. I know that the T1+ is not bass heavy and I dont want that, but it's probably more bass than my bookshelf concept 2 speakers.

Moving the speakers a bit is possible, but the furniture you see in the picture is unlikely to be moved. The furniture that say solid do not allow air to pass through.

[jacob]

If you have any thoughts about whether any part of this is a problem or not, please do comment!

[cawgijoe]

Feb 10, 2022 7:26:25 GMT -5 jacob said:

If you have any thoughts about whether any part of this is a problem or not, please do comment!

Since no one has responded, I'll give my thoughts. I don't own the T-1 or zero. Normally I would say that the speakers should be at least a foot away from the wall, but if you are not also using a subwoofer, having them closer should provide a bass boost which may be helpful.

The T-1 and zero are rated well. They may work well in your room and situation, but the only real way to tell is to buy them and audition. If there is an issue, experimenting with room treatments may help.

It's a bit of a hassle, but they can be returned if they don't work for you.

[doc1963]

Feb 10, 2022 7:26:25 GMT -5 jacob said:

If you have any thoughts about whether any part of this is a problem or not, please do comment!

I own the original T2's and don’t find them to be any more sensitive to room “placement” than any other speakers that I’ve owned before them. Where I do find them to be a little more finicky is toe-in and/or pitch angle due to the narrower dispersion pattern of the tweeter. The folded ribbon design does not have the same dispersion pattern of, lets say, a dome. Experimenting with toe-in (or out) as well as pitch may be important to maximize imaging and minimize any potential beaming when sitting relatively close to them in a smaller sized room.

And while the Airmotiv tower speakers will produce “more bass”, it may not be the type of bass you’re looking for in the registers you'd want. Even if so, I don't think you'll have enough “grunt” in your TA-100 to drive them to their full potential. More bass requires more power, so you'll need to consider that too.

So if it were me, and mostly interested in two channel, I’d consider adding a subwoofer before moving to larger speakers. An adequately powered subwoofer will give you more of an impact, potentially at a lower cost, and doesn't need to be all that "big". And while room placement is still important, you find that you have more options to work with.

But if you’re still wanting to replace your main speakers, I’d suggest the T-Zeros but still paired with a nice subwoofer...

[jacob]

Feb 10, 2022 10:24:31 GMT -5 doc1963 said:

toe-in and/or pitch angle due to the narrower dispersion pattern of the tweeter. [...] I don't think you'll have enough “grunt” in your TA-100 to drive them to their full potential.

What is pitch angle? Also are you saying they have an unusaully small area where they sound good?

I might pick up an A300 or something down the line. But of course I don't want it to feel like a downgrade with my present amp. There is a store where I might be able to demo them, hopefully with my amp, it won't say anything about how they sound in my room, but it's a start.

I'm hesitant to go with a sub, I'm thinking speakers only might be a better sound and I don't crave a lot of bass.

[cawgijoe]

I would give the TA-100 a shot first. You may be pleasantly surprised. However, I'm of the school of "never too much power". Not for loudness, but for headroom.

If you can audition them, that would be ideal. That way you can get a good idea of sound quality. Using your amp would be a bonus.

[doc1963]

Feb 10, 2022 14:25:38 GMT -5 jacob said:

Feb 10, 2022 10:24:31 GMT -5 doc1963 said:

toe-in and/or pitch angle due to the narrower dispersion pattern of the tweeter. [...] I don't think you'll have enough “grunt” in your TA-100 to drive them to their full potential.

What is pitch angle? Also are you saying they have an unusaully small area where they sound good?

I might pick up an A300 or something down the line. But of course I don't want it to feel like a downgrade with my present amp. There is a store where I might be able to demo them, hopefully with my amp, it won't say anything about how they sound in my room, but it's a start.

I'm hesitant to go with a sub, I'm thinking speakers only might be a better sound and I don't crave a lot of bass.

Pitch angle would be a slight upward "tilt" of the speaker used to reduce harshness in a tweeter that might otherwise be a bit "beamy". In my experience owning the T2's, you won't need to worry about this. It's just a point of reference I gave you just in case you might need to experiment with it. The Airmotion tweeters are extended, but no where near what "I" consider to be harsh or bright.

No, the Airmotivs aren't unusually narrow in focus, but the folded ribbon tweeter (regardless of brand) does not have the dispersion pattern of a dome tweeter. The wave guide used on the Airmotion tweeter is actually pretty good, so no need for concern. Experiment with toe-in if needed for imaging.

My room is also on the smaller side and my T2 require very little toe-in and they stand straight up. Imaging and extension is perfect just the way they are. I'm sure you'd be just fine too...

[drtrey3]

Mine do not sound their best so close to the wall. Moving them out into the room means my sub is unplugged. Too close to the back wall and things get muddy in my set up.

Trey

[donh50]

The bookcase may create an "interesting" image, and you'll have different boundaries if the speakers are not equidistant from the "Luftig" (not my language, sorry). Since the speaker are already relatively close together, could you rotate to put the speakers on the wall to the left in your picture? The Kallax may have less impact that way, though not sure what the loft will do...

[jacob]

Feb 11, 2022 12:02:57 GMT -5 drtrey3 said:

Mine do not sound their best so close to the wall. Moving them out into the room means my sub is unplugged. Too close to the back wall and things get muddy in my set up.

Trey

Thank you for commenting!
Have you tried putting acoustic panels on the wall behind the rear port, as suggested here?
avgadgets.com/qotd-should-i-plug-my-speaker-port/

[jacob]

Feb 11, 2022 12:42:56 GMT -5 donh50 said:

The bookcase may create an "interesting" image, and you'll have different boundaries if the speakers are not equidistant from the "Luftig" (not my language, sorry). Since the speaker are already relatively close together, could you rotate to put the speakers on the wall to the left in your picture? The Kallax may have less impact that way, though not sure what the loft will do...

I've thought about it but there's no space there, that wall has a window and to the left is a bed. Luftig means airy in swedish as opposed to the solid furniture, it's basicly a table of sorts with some plants on, so it wont block the air much.

[garbulky]

I think you'll be quite happy

[jacob]

Feb 10, 2022 10:24:31 GMT -5 doc1963 said:

I’d consider adding a subwoofer before moving to larger speakers.

I've challenged my feelings and researched more about subs and after hearing a lot of reviewers talk about seamlessly integrating subs, so the sound seems to come from the speakers. I have decided to take Doc1963's advice.

My previous experience with subs are peoples cars and movie systems, which were more ompfh and less musical, so I think I had the wrong idea about what subs can be. I'll try to write something when I got my new sub.

[garbulky]

Feb 14, 2022 10:05:31 GMT -5 jacob said:

Feb 10, 2022 10:24:31 GMT -5 doc1963 said:

I’d consider adding a subwoofer before moving to larger speakers.

I've challenged my feelings and researched more about subs and after hearing a lot of reviewers talk about seamlessly integrating subs, so the sound seems to come from the speakers. I have decided to take Doc1963's advice.

My previous experience with subs are peoples cars and movie systems, which were more ompfh and less musical, so I think I had the wrong idea about what subs can be. I'll try to write something when I got my new sub.

Me? I would go T2s.

[novisnick]

Feb 15, 2022 11:39:09 GMT -5 garbulky said:

Feb 14, 2022 10:05:31 GMT -5 jacob said:

I've challenged my feelings and researched more about subs and after hearing a lot of reviewers talk about seamlessly integrating subs, so the sound seems to come from the speakers. I have decided to take Doc1963's advice.

My previous experience with subs are peoples cars and movie systems, which were more ompfh and less musical, so I think I had the wrong idea about what subs can be. I'll try to write something when I got my new sub.

Me? I would go T2s.

Normally I’d agree with you but if the speakers are giving him everything he wants from them except great low bass I’d spend that money on a very good subwoofer. 
A good/great subwoofer opens up so many options if someday one decides to purchase better speakers. 

[doc1963]

Feb 15, 2022 12:57:45 GMT -5 novisnick said:

Feb 15, 2022 11:39:09 GMT -5 garbulky said:

Me? I would go T2s.

Normally I’d agree with you but if the speakers are giving him everything he wants from them except great low bass I’d spend that money on a very good subwoofer. 
A good/great subwoofer opens up so many options if someday one decides to purchase better speakers. 

I agree, and is why I made the suggestion, but I'll go as far as to say it gives him great options now.

When music reproduction is our foremost concern, we place our main speakers to achieve the best imaging. But where they achieve the best imaging, they might not produce the best bass response. Using a subwoofer, you can freely move it to a point anywhere in the room where it gives you the smoothest bass response without sacrificing the soundstage that you've established with your mains.

Down the road, he might want to experiment with a miniDSP and "house curves". I'd agree that those types of adventures are definitely his "someday" options.

If I were to start over, and the best reproduction of music were my only goal, there's no question that I would consider a combination of great bookshelf or mid-tower speakers and a great subwoofer. Bigger doesn't always get you better...

[housetech]

Agree Doc. Add the additional complexities of crossovers of multi-way drivers and their size, easier placement of 2-way bookshelves and the fact they sound so good today.
If jacob finds a sub with high inputs/outputs it can help make integration a bit easier. I was surprised at the difference, pre-LFE processing, it made for me while I was learning and the science evolved.

[jacob]

So I said I would get back to you, so here goes:
I bought a second hand Rel t5x, and it is great. Setup for me was not easy, I'm not experienced with subwoofers, but after a few days it integrates perfectly with my speakers. (If you're interested, let me know, and I'll give you my 2c on Rel crossover setup)

Further more I got a good deal on Elac ub52 speakers and I've got a used a300 amp

Getting the more powerful amp made a huge difference! Now I just got a rug and continue with some minor room treatment. So that's a lot of stuff in a short time I'm quite happy with the sound, bass, soundstage/imaging (wide and now even a bit of depth) and the dynamics.

[jacob]

Ok, one more post and then I'll leave this thread alone.

My new Elac ub52 are the most sensitive to placement speakers I've experienced. That's not saying much though, but my Dali concept 2 speakers could be right in front of the wall without me noticing a difference.

Yesterday I put small thick bathroom rugs on the wall behind the speakers. I didn't expect a lot of difference, just that it would remove some reflections to make the sound more calm and less tiring.

At first, it did make it calmer, but it also took away reverb, the sustain on eg cymbals was shorter. Then I tried moving the speakers back towards the wall, the reverb came back and now everything sounded more natural than ever. Everything from voices to sensations of space is improved. Fantastic! I did not expect that to make such a difference AND I don't need to have my speakers as far out into the room!