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Post by stefanovitch on Mar 18, 2022 5:33:32 GMT -5
Hello folks!
Did anyone try an Emotiva T zero and T1 or T2 with a Yamaha AX-550, AX-700, and AX-870?
While I can see that the T0 has an almost resistant load, apart from 3 Khz 3.9 ohms, the T1 does certainly dip to 2.8 ohms at around 100 to 300 Hz.
I ask myself if the Yamaha amps hold up with either the T0 and T1.
I believe that the T0 may be easy to drive, but it might overwhelm the capabilities to drive a T1 or T2.
Anyone out that has tried to combine these brands and vice versa.
Best,
Stefanovitch
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Post by Boomzilla on Mar 18, 2022 8:01:49 GMT -5
I've done so, but briefly. Yes, the Yamaha amps ARE robust enough to tolerate a 2.8 ohm dip and be reliable doing it. Not only that, but the impedance swing doesn't seem to harm the Yammies' voicing either.
My recommendation (that, along with a dollar, will get you a cup of McCoffee) is don't worry about combining Yamaha electronics with Emotiva speakers. Both are great quality, and should sing sweetly together for a long, long time.
Boomzilla
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Post by stefanovitch on Mar 18, 2022 8:05:20 GMT -5
I've done so, but briefly. Yes, the Yamaha amps ARE robust enough to tolerate a 2.8 ohm dip and be reliable doing it. Not only that, but the impedance swing doesn't seem to harm the Yammies' voicing either. My recommendation (that, along with a dollar, will get you a cup of McCoffee) is don't worry about combining Yamaha electronics with Emotiva speakers. Both are great quality, and should sing sweetly together for a long, long time. Boomzilla Thank you very much for your recent input, but could you refer to the amp models that you did exactly combine. Yeah, a McCoffe is just about a dollar :-) I was confused as an Emotiva guru on support claimed the AX 870 would not be enough for the T1. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Mar 18, 2022 8:22:22 GMT -5
The "enough" of ANY amplifier to speaker interface depends on several things:
1. How loudly do you want the speakers to play? The louder you want, the more power you have to buy. And the power demand increases exponentially with volume. That word is not hyperbole. It really does increase exponentially. So the difference between a 75W amp and a 150W one is insignificant for "more volume" calculations. You want a difference, you go from 75W to 250W (or more). Most people listen between 65dB and 85dB in their homes. With most speakers, this consumes very little wattage. Crank it up (even a bit), and you suddenly need a LOT more watts.
2. How big is your room? Remember that sound pressure level follows the inverse square law so that for every additional meter of distance you are from the speakers, the SPL drops dramatically. The bigger your room, the more power you need.
3. How long do you listen at a sitting? Even if your amp heats up, if you are only listening for an hour at a time the amp should hold up fine. But if you want to power an all-day football party with music blasting for 8 hours or more continuously, you need a more robust amp.
Which Yamaha did I have when I had my T2 Emotiva speakers? I honestly don't remember, but it wasn't a top of the line.
Boom
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Post by stefanovitch on Mar 18, 2022 8:31:50 GMT -5
The "enough" of ANY amplifier to speaker interface depends on several things: 1. How loudly do you want the speakers to play? The louder you want, the more power you have to buy. And the power demand increases exponentially with volume. That word is not hyperbole. It really does increase exponentially. So the difference between a 75W amp and a 150W one is insignificant for "more volume" calculations. You want a difference, you go from 75W to 250W (or more). Most people listen between 65dB and 85dB in their homes. With most speakers, this consumes very little wattage. Crank it up (even a bit), and you suddenly need a LOT more watts. 2. How big is your room? Remember that sound pressure level follows the inverse square law so that for every additional meter of distance you are from the speakers, the SPL drops dramatically. The bigger your room, the more power you need. 3. How long do you listen at a sitting? Even if your amp heats up, if you are only listening for an hour at a time the amp should hold up fine. But if you want to power an all-day football party with music blasting for 8 hours or more continuously, you need a more robust amp. Which Yamaha did I have when I had my T2 Emotiva speakers? I honestly don't remember, but it wasn't a top of the line. Boom I assume photos should tell more! Thats the interior. 15 amp supply, 2X 10.000 UF. 4 output devices per channel.... HCA curcuit. PS Audio did use that in their power amps around 1984. 1.) I listen louder, around 4-5 hours if I do. 2.) About 30 square meter 5 m long and 6 meter wide. 3.) Never over 8 hours. Well maybe the guy is right, for the T0 enoug power, but not neough for the T1 or T2. |
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Mar 18, 2022 9:13:55 GMT -5
It's likely enough power to drive the Emotiva speakers, however it's been my experience that a better quality amp would make you much happier. I ran a pair of Thiel CS1.6 speakers (4ohm - 3ohm min) for a little while using a Denon 3300 receiver and found that it "worked", but the sound was "thin" and the amp heated up quite a bit. I added an outboard three channel Acurus amp (100x3) for the fronts while running the rear surrounds off the receiver and that solved the heat issue while also greatly improving the sound quality.
Since then I now have an XMC-2 and XPA-5 (Gen 3).
All you can really do is give it a go and decide for yourself whether the amp and speakers are a good match or whether buying a higher quality amp is the way to go.
My .02
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Mar 18, 2022 9:29:20 GMT -5
The problem with what you said is that it is making a lot of generalizations and assumptions which are quite often not true... It's also quite obvious that many people are overly impressed by "visual impressions" - and manufacturers certainly take this into account. (Which is why you will sometimes see big impressive looking parts with lousy specs.)
For example, if everything else was equal, and we were assuming equivalent output devices, then I guess "more output devices would be better". However, again all else being equal, one 500 watt output device can potentially deliver more power than three 100 watt output devices. And, unless you look up the actual specifications of each, you aren't going to be able to tell which you have just by looking. Seeing several output devices could mean that the amp is "massively over-designed" or that "they used several cheap devices rather than one good one to save money". Or it could mean that the manufacturer simply chose to "standardize" on one particular type to simplify stocking parts - and use the appropriate number in each model.
And, in many situations, factors like the size of the heat sinks, or the design of the power supply, will actually be the limiting factor anyway.
Likewise, especially when it comes to devices like power amps, for each design there will be a range of values of total filter capacitance that will be useful in the main power supply. Using too little will compromise performance... But using too much may not improve performance, may actually increase the strain on other parts, leading to premature failure, and will almost always raise the cost.
As far as I can tell "HCA" is some sort of proprietary circuit topology, used in the past by Yamaha, and claimed to have certain benefits.
As with most things with cutesy names it's a proprietary variation of a relatively well known circuit whose "virtues" depend a lot on the particular implementation and application - and who you ask.
Virtually all modern solid state Class A or Class A/B amplifiers are based on a single basic design, with refinements and variations.
Here's an excellent article that explains how to design your own:
Incidentally, Yamaha's "HCA" stands for "hyperbolic conversion amplifier"...
If you want a good laugh look up what the words "hyperbole" and "hyperbolic" mean in the dictionary... (And some people think electrical engineers don't have a sense of humor.)
The "enough" of ANY amplifier to speaker interface depends on several things: 1. How loudly do you want the speakers to play? The louder you want, the more power you have to buy. And the power demand increases exponentially with volume. That word is not hyperbole. It really does increase exponentially. So the difference between a 75W amp and a 150W one is insignificant for "more volume" calculations. You want a difference, you go from 75W to 250W (or more). Most people listen between 65dB and 85dB in their homes. With most speakers, this consumes very little wattage. Crank it up (even a bit), and you suddenly need a LOT more watts. 2. How big is your room? Remember that sound pressure level follows the inverse square law so that for every additional meter of distance you are from the speakers, the SPL drops dramatically. The bigger your room, the more power you need. 3. How long do you listen at a sitting? Even if your amp heats up, if you are only listening for an hour at a time the amp should hold up fine. But if you want to power an all-day football party with music blasting for 8 hours or more continuously, you need a more robust amp. Which Yamaha did I have when I had my T2 Emotiva speakers? I honestly don't remember, but it wasn't a top of the line. Boom I assume photos should tell more! Thats the interior. 15 amp supply, 2X 10.000 UF. 4 output devices per channel.... HCA curcuit. PS Audio did use that in their power amps around 1984. 1.) I listen louder, around 4-5 hours if I do. 2.) About 30 square meter 5 m long and 6 meter wide. 3.) Never over 8 hours. Well maybe the guy is right, for the T0 enoug power, but not neough for the T1 or T2. |
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Post by creimes on Mar 18, 2022 9:58:55 GMT -5
From personal experience of owning a Yamaha receiver years back and adding two UPA-1 amps it was a noticeable improvement to my ears, my then Monitor Audio RX6 towers came alive, YMMV but for me I could never go back to a wimpy receiver powering my speakers, just my .02  Chad |
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Post by stefanovitch on Mar 18, 2022 10:04:01 GMT -5
From personal experience of owning a Yamaha receiver years back and adding two UPA-1 amps it was a noticeable improvement to my ears, my then Monitor Audio RX6 towers came alive, YMMV but for me I could never go back to a wimpy receiver powering my speakers, just my .02 Chad I assume this is an issue. Lonnie Vaughn told me once since of its resistant load it is not a problem to dive the T0 to high volume levels even with the Yamaha integrated that I have. However, I forgot to ask about the T1 and T2 and Emotiva chat seems to be done for now. Any ideas where I could ask him this question perosonally. I will simply stick with the T0 and I am fine! Best, Stefanovitch |
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Post by creimes on Mar 18, 2022 10:19:23 GMT -5
From personal experience of owning a Yamaha receiver years back and adding two UPA-1 amps it was a noticeable improvement to my ears, my then Monitor Audio RX6 towers came alive, YMMV but for me I could never go back to a wimpy receiver powering my speakers, just my .02 Chad I assume this is an issue. Lonnie Vaughn told me once since of its resistant load it is not a problem to dive the T0 to high volume levels even with the Yamaha integrated that I have. However, I forgot to ask about the T1 and T2 and Emotiva chat seems to be done for now. Any ideas where I could ask him this question perosonally. I will simply stick with the T0 and I am fine! Best, Stefanovitch It can be a confusing topic as you will get all sorts of answers, some hear no difference and others do, for me even at low volumes my speakers sounded crisper or more dynamic, like how it has been mentioned here just more full and not so thin, but it also comes down to personal preference and what one is used to hearing, I also owned a Marantz AV7702 processor that made 2ch music dull and lifeless compared to my Emotiva and Sherbourn processors. I know your amp in question is an integrated 2ch so it may be better but I have never heard any of those Yamaha's you mentioned. I also own a Topping pre90 preamp and Mini GaN 5 amplifier and they are even more open and dynamic sounding then what my processor can achieve for 2ch use, the detail and dynamic is really amazing IMO. In general a 4ohm speaker will be more difficult for some amplifiers to drive properly especially the newer low end budget receivers. My current speakers the Chane 753 are Full Range speakers and sound phenomenal when powered with a dedicated amplifier like my Mini GaN 5 or Outlaw 7000X compared to my buddies low end Yamaha receiver that we tried one day. In the end it;s your gear, ears and room that play the biggest part. Chad |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Mar 18, 2022 10:20:34 GMT -5
In general all of our speakers are relatively "friendly" loads and should be easy to drive. From personal experience of owning a Yamaha receiver years back and adding two UPA-1 amps it was a noticeable improvement to my ears, my then Monitor Audio RX6 towers came alive, YMMV but for me I could never go back to a wimpy receiver powering my speakers, just my .02  Chad I assume this is an issue. Lonnie Vaughn told me once since of its resistant load it is not a problem to dive the T0 to high volume levels even with the Yamaha integrated that I have. However, I forgot to ask about the T1 and T2 and Emotiva chat seems to be done for now. Any ideas where I could ask him this question perosonally. I will simply stick with the T0 and I am fine! Best, Stefanovitch |
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Mar 18, 2022 10:30:47 GMT -5
In general all of our speakers are relatively "friendly" loads and should be easy to drive. I assume this is an issue. Lonnie Vaughn told me once since of its resistant load it is not a problem to dive the T0 to high volume levels even with the Yamaha integrated that I have. However, I forgot to ask about the T1 and T2 and Emotiva chat seems to be done for now. Any ideas where I could ask him this question perosonally. I will simply stick with the T0 and I am fine! Best, Stefanovitch If you own the T0 currently and are driving these with the Yamaha AX870 and it's working and you are happy with the sound, I don't se any reason the T1 or T2 would function any different. |
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Post by stefanovitch on Mar 18, 2022 11:05:17 GMT -5
I have a Triade Voice Admiral speaker that has a 3.2 ohm dip at 10 Khz and the base is around 4 ohm. No problems even at nearly full volume levels. The amp gets a little warmer, but no issues at all.
Does Emotiva grant money back garantee in case it should not work, otherwise I have been thinking about a Klipsch R 620F.
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Mar 18, 2022 11:31:55 GMT -5
I have a Triade Voice Admiral speaker that has a 3.2 ohm dip at 10 Khz and the base is around 4 ohm. No problems even at nearly full volume levels. The amp gets a little warmer, but no issues at all. Does Emotiva grant money back garantee in case it should not work, otherwise I have been thinking about a Klipsch R 620F. You have 30 days and you would have to pay return shipping. |
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Post by stefanovitch on Mar 22, 2022 17:24:31 GMT -5
Wahou, and as it comes, there are some Youtubers driving an Emotiva T2 with a Yamaha RV-X 750 surround receiver and it pushes the base quite well. No distortion at high volume levels nor any problems with the low dips when driving one pair.
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Post by housetech on Mar 23, 2022 12:23:46 GMT -5
Incidentally, Yamaha's "HCA" stands for "hyperbolic conversion amplifier"...
If you want a good laugh look up what the words "hyperbole" and "hyperbolic" mean in the dictionary... (And some people think electrical engineers don't have a sense of humor.) lol, so true Keith Marketing can get creative. We live in a great time for electronics & audio, even inexpensive products perform with most speakers. Folks get too wrapped up in specs; if an amp is 4 ohm rated, it's probably good to go. Check owner reviews, if there is a design problem it will be mentioned with failures. Just use common sense. unlike a the person a few months ago, who was complaining about playing an amp at full volume during a party and wondered why it blew. |
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