KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Apr 4, 2022 14:14:55 GMT -5
More to the point, if you've added absorbers in the right locations, and they prevent sound from reaching the fan blades, they would quite possibly have fixed the problem.
@keithl. I cant tell when the fan is off or on. Sounds the same to me. I’ll keep playing around with different LPs just to see it it’s something I can hear |
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ttocs
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I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
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Post by ttocs on Apr 4, 2022 14:22:45 GMT -5
The main thing to remember here is that adding all those panels to an otherwise untreated room is a huuuuge difference! and must be heavenly to enjoy! Now I've gotta get my buttox in gear and get what little treatments I had back in place and add more!! (I gave some panels to a friend, then just got lazy.) Thanks dsonyay for the much needed guilt-trip! |
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Post by dsonyay on Apr 4, 2022 19:30:57 GMT -5
The main thing to remember here is that adding all those panels to an otherwise untreated room is a huuuuge difference! and must be heavenly to enjoy! Now I've gotta get my buttox in gear and get what little treatments I had back in place and add more!! (I gave some panels to a friend, then just got lazy.) Thanks dsonyay for the much needed guilt-trip! Oh it’s quite dramatic from before to after. I was listening to an album this afternoon that Ive never thought sounded right. hadn’t played it since the panels were done .. and wow wow wow. It sounded so much better today. Acoustical recordings like jazz and other very well recorded LPs are quite stunning. One of my Bill Evans LPs and a Chic Corea trio recording came to life as well. I feel like my room is now a nice place to test speakers, and other gear because the effects of the room are fixed and I’m now hearing what’s coming out of the speakers rather than all sorts of interference caused by the room itself. If that makes sense |
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Post by dsonyay on Apr 4, 2022 19:34:19 GMT -5
More to the point, if you've added absorbers in the right locations, and they prevent sound from reaching the fan blades, they would quite possibly have fixed the problem.
@keithl. I cant tell when the fan is off or on. Sounds the same to me. I’ll keep playing around with different LPs just to see it it’s something I can hear I think that’s what may have happened. I been listening most if the afternoon with fan off… flicked it on for a while then back off during a song or two. Cant notice anything to be honest. But with the fan sitting still I cant help but think the blades reflect in many different directions (scattering) due to the pitch each has. Does that make sense? |
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Post by dsonyay on Apr 4, 2022 19:41:39 GMT -5
405x5 snip…. “ I think Keith was pulling your leg 🦵 a bit, as was I with the cheese 🧀! …..the ceiling fan is nowhere near the source output.” Ahhh ok. No big deal.. yeah no offense at all. It does look a bit like a slab of swiss tho.  Correct panels will look like these when the replacements come in:  They’ll send me just the plates which will be a snap to swap out. And will look a little better than all bubbles on both walls |
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Post by creimes on Apr 5, 2022 0:27:45 GMT -5
The main thing to remember here is that adding all those panels to an otherwise untreated room is a huuuuge difference! and must be heavenly to enjoy! Now I've gotta get my buttox in gear and get what little treatments I had back in place and add more!! (I gave some panels to a friend, then just got lazy.) Thanks dsonyay for the much needed guilt-trip! Oh it’s quite dramatic from before to after. I was listening to an album this afternoon that Ive never thought sounded right. hadn’t played it since the panels were done .. and wow wow wow. It sounded so much better today. Acoustical recordings like jazz and other very well recorded LPs are quite stunning. One of my Bill Evans LPs and a Chic Corea trio recording came to life as well. I feel like my room is now a nice place to test speakers, and other gear because the effects of the room are fixed and I’m now hearing what’s coming out of the speakers rather than all sorts of interference caused by the room itself. If that makes sense I was once doing some testing between having all my panels up and then taken down and it was a very noticeable difference, I made 7 DIY panels and have been gifted 4 GIK bass traps and I couldn't imagine my room without them now, I laugh inside when I see very expensive systems in untreated rooms. Congrats on the new found glory, Chad |
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Post by dsonyay on Apr 5, 2022 10:00:58 GMT -5
creimes Yes.. exactly. I wish I’d have done all this so much earlier. On a good note, it’s done. I can now simply enjoy and know it’s about as good as can be acoustically. These Zu speakers have a whole different sound .. the bass is fantastic and they sound far more detailed and spacious. I upgraded from Kplisch RP towers… kinda wonder sometimes if i had done all the treatments first, i might still have them instead of the Zu. lol
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Apr 5, 2022 10:14:32 GMT -5
I'm sorry... but I sort of thought the "bubbles" looked cool... and I think I might personally have preferred them to "bar codes".
How about this "pattern":
405x5 snip…. “ I think Keith was pulling your leg 🦵 a bit, as was I with the cheese 🧀! …..the ceiling fan is nowhere near the source output.” Ahhh ok. No big deal.. yeah no offense at all. It does look a bit like a slab of swiss tho.  Correct panels will look like these when the replacements come in: They’ll send me just the plates which will be a snap to swap out. And will look a little better than all bubbles on both walls |
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KeithL
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Posts: 10,261
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Post by KeithL on Apr 5, 2022 10:25:51 GMT -5
Absolutely....
Sitting still, each blade has a relatively small surface area, so the whole things sort of counts as a diffuser... But, when it's moving, not only is the reflection pattern moving, but the sound reflected from each blade will waver in frequency thanks to Doppler shift... It's sort of like the difference in the reflections between a shiny faceted crystal sitting on a shelf and a spinning disco ball...
And we humans are especially sensitive to sounds that waver or vary at audible frequencies... which is the definition of "flutter". (And, again, if not much sound of the right frequencies actually hits the fan, then the effect will be minimal.)
More to the point, if you've added absorbers in the right locations, and they prevent sound from reaching the fan blades, they would quite possibly have fixed the problem. I think that’s what may have happened. I been listening most if the afternoon with fan off… flicked it on for a while then back off during a song or two. Cant notice anything to be honest. But with the fan sitting still I cant help but think the blades reflect in many different directions (scattering) due to the pitch each has. Does that make sense? |
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Post by dsonyay on Apr 5, 2022 17:21:44 GMT -5
@keithl As per John D at GIK (I asked him about this earlier): “No a fan cannot affect directionality of air pressure. If you listen from the other side of one you’ll get a bit of a tremelo affect, but not quite the same thing.” ——————- But I do get get what you’re saying about Dopp effect as well. Thanks |
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KeithL
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Posts: 10,261
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Post by KeithL on Apr 5, 2022 17:27:56 GMT -5
Yes... listening through a fan is VERY bad.... However I would still avoid allowing a significant amount of sound to strike a moving fan blade and be reflected back into the room.
(But, if you have enough absorbers, and don't point your speakers at the ceiling, that shouldn't be a significant issue, right?  )
However I would be remiss to point out two things...
1.
Sound waves that hit the fan blades and are reflected by them are one thing.
The remainder will pass through the fan, strike the ceiling, and reflect back down, after passing through the fan blades twice.
2. Strictly speaking sound can only reasonably be modeled as a pressure wave for surfaces larger than its wavelength. Therefore, assuming that a fan blade is 6" wide, it shouldn't be considered to be a pressure wave for anything over about 2 kHz.
I assume he's really saying that the changes in pressure caused by the fan won't affect sound passing near it... which is quite true... And that the area of the fan blades is small enough that variations in what it reflects and how really won't be audibly significant... And, to be fair, I'm inclined to agree that I doubt it would do anything noticeable... But I wouldn't rule out the possibility entirely without checking it... (Awfully small amounts of wow and flutter can be audible under the right conditions...)
@keithl As per John D at GIK (I asked him about this earlier): “No a fan cannot affect directionality of air pressure. If you listen from the other side of one you’ll get a bit of a tremelo affect, but not quite the same thing.” ——————- But I do get get what you’re saying about Dopp effect as well. Thanks |
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Post by 405x5 on Apr 5, 2022 20:33:24 GMT -5
I will never have to worry about ceiling fan anomalies for one reason alone…..
Back in the earlier days of my electrical work (mid to late eighties) ceiling fans were the rage and everyone wanted one it seamed….both residential and commercial.
Every week a whole day was devoted to installations, some places got half dozen or so at a clip.
Every height, some at 30 ft plus to bring the hot air down.
Every construction type, from plaster to drop ceiling and Sheetrock.
The pendant mounts were sometimes off balance and you couldn’t leave until the wobble was “trued”.
We put hundreds of those things up and I LOVED getting home to my blank ceilings with nothin but lights up there.
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Post by dsonyay on Apr 6, 2022 5:08:18 GMT -5
I will never have to worry about ceiling fan anomalies for one reason alone….. Back in the earlier days of my electrical work (mid to late eighties) ceiling fans were the rage and everyone wanted one it seamed….both residential and commercial. Every week a whole day was devoted to installations, some places got half dozen or so at a clip. Every height, some at 30 ft plus to bring the hot air down. Every construction type, from plaster to drop ceiling and Sheetrock. The pendant mounts were sometimes off balance and you couldn’t leave until the wobble was “trued”. We put hundreds of those things up and I LOVED getting home to my blank ceilings with nothin but lights up there. Hhahahaha.. yes I would think so.. it’s like the saying that mechanics have the worst cared for cars. I live in south La. Ceiling fans are nearly mandatory |
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Post by dsonyay on Apr 6, 2022 5:10:42 GMT -5
Yes... listening through a fan is VERY bad.... However I would still avoid allowing a significant amount of sound to strike a moving fan blade and be reflected back into the room.
(But, if you have enough absorbers, and don't point your speakers at the ceiling, that shouldn't be a significant issue, right? )
However I would be remiss to point out two things...
1.
Sound waves that hit the fan blades and are reflected by them are one thing.
The remainder will pass through the fan, strike the ceiling, and reflect back down, after passing through the fan blades twice.
2. Strictly speaking sound can only reasonably be modeled as a pressure wave for surfaces larger than its wavelength. Therefore, assuming that a fan blade is 6" wide, it shouldn't be considered to be a pressure wave for anything over about 2 kHz.
I assume he's really saying that the changes in pressure caused by the fan won't affect sound passing near it... which is quite true... And that the area of the fan blades is small enough that variations in what it reflects and how really won't be audibly significant... And, to be fair, I'm inclined to agree that I doubt it would do anything noticeable... But I wouldn't rule out the possibility entirely without checking it... (Awfully small amounts of wow and flutter can be audible under the right conditions...)
@keithl As per John D at GIK (I asked him about this earlier): “No a fan cannot affect directionality of air pressure. If you listen from the other side of one you’ll get a bit of a tremelo affect, but not quite the same thing.” ——————- But I do get get what you’re saying about Dopp effect as well. Thanks Great points. Yeah —- the speakers not pointed directly into the fan is probably a major factor.. then there’s all the absorption around room. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Apr 6, 2022 9:57:18 GMT -5
I always like to consider even unlikely possibilities - at least to eliminate them.
For example, we know that, if dialog is less than optimally intelligible, putting a carpet on the floor, at the first reflection spot between the center channel speaker and the listener, can often help. That would lead me to suspect that, for the same reason, having a spinning fan on the ceiling at that same first bounce point might have the opposite effect. And, if so, either leaving the fan off when listening to music, or using a center channel speaker with limited vertical dispersion, would probably help. 
Unfortunately, since things like that are way too complex to calculate reliably, the only real way to find out is trial and error.
Yes... listening through a fan is VERY bad.... However I would still avoid allowing a significant amount of sound to strike a moving fan blade and be reflected back into the room.
(But, if you have enough absorbers, and don't point your speakers at the ceiling, that shouldn't be a significant issue, right? ) However I would be remiss to point out two things... 1.
Sound waves that hit the fan blades and are reflected by them are one thing.
The remainder will pass through the fan, strike the ceiling, and reflect back down, after passing through the fan blades twice. 2. Strictly speaking sound can only reasonably be modeled as a pressure wave for surfaces larger than its wavelength. Therefore, assuming that a fan blade is 6" wide, it shouldn't be considered to be a pressure wave for anything over about 2 kHz. I assume he's really saying that the changes in pressure caused by the fan won't affect sound passing near it... which is quite true... And that the area of the fan blades is small enough that variations in what it reflects and how really won't be audibly significant... And, to be fair, I'm inclined to agree that I doubt it would do anything noticeable... But I wouldn't rule out the possibility entirely without checking it... (Awfully small amounts of wow and flutter can be audible under the right conditions...)
Great points. Yeah —- the speakers not pointed directly into the fan is probably a major factor.. then there’s all the absorption around room. |
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Post by dsonyay on Apr 6, 2022 18:48:42 GMT -5
KeithL
I’m planning to put a thick carpet pad under the area rug. Ive heard this is much better than just an area rug.
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Post by creimes on Apr 7, 2022 10:47:06 GMT -5
Now you get to hear more how your speakers sound and not the room and the speakers  Chad |
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