|
|
Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 3, 2022 10:51:36 GMT -5
And isn't it interesting how very few popular music groups can play their own songs in any way that sounds even remotely like their studio albums? Years (decades? centuries? ages?) ago, I was working traffic for the Campus Police when Jethro Tull was playing in the university auditorium. It was their "Thick as a Brick" tour. Since traffic control was over by the time that the concert was about to start, and since I got free entry, and, mostly, since I liked Jethro Tull, I went in and listened to their performance. They played through the entire Thick as a Brick album and if I had worn a blindfold, I'd have sworn that I was listening to the studio album. They were THAT note-perfect. I've never before or since seen ANY group that could do that. Ever. At the end of the Thick as a Brick material, Ian Anderson approached the microphone and quipped "And now, for our second song..." Brought down the house! … I think “Thick as a Brick” was possibly JT’s best, I’m sure it was great to hear it played completely, I’ve seen them a few times and always a good show. I think the first band to play a complete album was The Who with “Tommy”, and then again with “Quadrophenia” (fortunate to see both); it only seemed to become popular again about 20 years ago when many bands started touring past albums. One of my favorite album shows was Todd Rundgren’s “A Wizard A True Star” played at a smaller local venue. As for “sounding” like the album, I agree with the comment that essentially the album is a sound unto its own, that never existed in the wild. I mentioned above that Randy McStien was tasked with playing and singing some of Steven Wilson’s parts from the album, but with Wilson’s multi-layered production, unique voice, and deep guitar effects, that’s an ambitious ask. In some cases McStien’s guitar parts were spot on, I even felt he was ‘leashed’ to Steven’s recorded part, but occasionally (almost as if told to let it rip) he would add his signature to the part. In another song (my favorite “Dignity” from the C/C album), Wilson played acoustic, and they altered the the songs dramatic chord picking line to build more slowly (first just acoustic, then muted electric, then full on electric), I thought it was brilliant. So while for some music it’s certainly fun to hear a song sound like the recording, sometimes it can be better with a live version. When I saw the Quadrophenia “reprise” tour it was very different than the original tour, primarily because Keith Moon and John Entwistle are gone, but Pete Townshend gave credit to their music director, for teaching the band to again sound like the album. |
|
|
|
Post by marcl on Feb 20, 2023 13:16:34 GMT -5
I was able to do a little quantitative listening test at the Perelman Theater yesterday. We went to hear the Phila Chamber Orchestra concert that included a Beethoven piano concerto. Our seats were in row D which in the past has been the fourth row, but due to the need for space for the piano they raised the pit, extending the stage over the first two rows. So we were the same distance from the orchestra as usual, but with only one row of seats in front of us and the piano about 8ft away. The orchestra configuration was 11 fiddles, 4 viola, 3 cello, 2 basses, 2 horns, 2 bassoons, 2 oboes 1 flute … plus the Steinway for the Beethoven only. I opened the SPL meter on my phone and had it sitting on my lap during the piano concerto. First I measured the ambient noise of the room at the quietest moment between when all the geezers stopped coughing and the orchestra started … 46dbC. For reference, my room at home can get down to 43 if the refrigerator compressor and HVAC fan are off. Note that a dbA measurement would usually be quieter because it eliminates the low frequencies. During the performance typical levels ranged between 75-85dbC, with peaks during the loudest piano solo at 95dbC. Full orchestra peaks were more like 91. Remember, the piano was about 8ft away and since it was on the stage we were actually looking up at the bottom of the sounding board. Of course it sounded great! Not a bit too loud. Next month there’s a Bach program that will include a harpsichord. We’ll probably go, and this time try seats maybe 8-10 rows back. BTW, the seats 10 rows back cost about $20 more than the second row seats. Photo is from another concert where the pit was stuck down and had no seats. The front row you see in this photo is C.  So today I found a chamber orchestra recording in my library of the same Beethoven Concerto No.2 ... a BIS 5.1 96/24 recording originally released on SACD. I also found this recording and another with different players on Apple Music. I listened to the 96/24 recording and found dynamic range to be similar to the live performance based on a similar average level. Slightly lower piano peaks than the live performance, likely due mostly to the difference between the concert Steinway at the Perelman 8ft from me, vs the fortepiano used in the recording. Then I listened to the Apple Music recordings and - maybe not surprisingly - significantly less dynamic range. At the same average level the same BIS recording didn't come near peaking at 90db. The other recording with a slightly higher average level barely peaked at 90. I'll say a couple things based on this listening experience .... it sounded great at "reference" level in my room ... and, no this does not prove that 96/24 sounds better than 48/24  |
|
|
|
Post by marcl on Feb 19, 2024 7:29:25 GMT -5
We returned to the Perelman Theater in Philadelphia for our second concert of the Chamber Orchestra season. The first was last month and there happened to be a snowstorm and while this made for very easy driving to the City (everyone else stayed home) ... we heard that of 2000 tickets sold for the afternoon orchestra concert only 700 shows up, and for our evening Chamber concert in the 600 seat theater, I counted about 85 (everyone else stayed home). That concert was a Bach program and it was really great ... except of course we heard not one note from the harpsichord. Well yesterday was a Baroque program which was very different in many ways ... except once again we heard not one note from the harpsichord!  We were in row E and with the pit raised this was three rows back, and only about 12ft from the violin soloist who stood on the left. Note also the minimalist instrumentation for this Rameau, Leclair, Locatelli, Vivaldi program. Just 12 plus the soloist vs the typical 20+. What I enjoyed the most was hearing the solo violin so clearly and so close. As she turned a little more toward or away from the audience, the timbre changed. She had a hybrid string configuration, using a gut E string which was much softer than a steel string would be ... in the quiet moments playing the highest notes of her cadenzas you could hear the sound of the bow on the string as well as the note itself. I enjoyed focusing on the sound as well as the music, as I always do. And It was interesting to correlate the sound I hear at home with the live instrument ... as on the best recordings I DO hear the bow, and the little "catch" of the string, and the changes in timbre. Remind me - next time someone waxes poetic about the sound of one DAC or another - to ask them when was the last time THEY sat 12ft from a virtuoso violinist and listened for an hour! |
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Feb 19, 2024 9:11:30 GMT -5
We returned to the Perelman Theater in Philadelphia for our second concert of the Chamber Orchestra season. The first was last month and there happened to be a snowstorm and while this made for very easy driving to the City (everyone else stayed home) ... we heard that of 2000 tickets sold for the afternoon orchestra concert only 700 shows up, and for our evening Chamber concert in the 600 seat theater, I counted about 85 (everyone else stayed home). That concert was a Bach program and it was really great ... except of course we heard not one note from the harpsichord. Well yesterday was a Baroque program which was very different in many ways ... except once again we heard not one note from the harpsichord! View AttachmentWe were in row E and with the pit raised this was three rows back, and only about 12ft from the violin soloist who stood on the left. Note also the minimalist instrumentation for this Rameau, Leclair, Locatelli, Vivaldi program. Just 12 plus the soloist vs the typical 20+. What I enjoyed the most was hearing the solo violin so clearly and so close. As she turned a little more toward or away from the audience, the timbre changed. She had a hybrid string configuration, using a gut E string which was much softer than a steel string would be ... in the quiet moments playing the highest notes of her cadenzas you could hear the sound of the bow on the string as well as the note itself. I enjoyed focusing on the sound as well as the music, as I always do. And It was interesting to correlate the sound I hear at home with the live instrument ... as on the best recordings I DO hear the bow, and the little "catch" of the string, and the changes in timbre. Remind me - next time someone waxes poetic about the sound of one DAC or another - to ask them when was the last time THEY sat 12ft from a virtuoso violinist and listened for an hour! I hear you….. My mother was a very fine classically trained pianist, and in her last years, she had a Steinway rebuilt from the company concert grand in the living room…… Such an incredible thing to hear. Not the easiest thing these days to actually hear “live music“ as everything is amplified, and the live performance itself lives or dies by the sound reinforcement system that’s rendering it |
|
|
|
Post by marcl on Feb 19, 2024 9:30:38 GMT -5
We returned to the Perelman Theater in Philadelphia for our second concert of the Chamber Orchestra season. The first was last month and there happened to be a snowstorm and while this made for very easy driving to the City (everyone else stayed home) ... we heard that of 2000 tickets sold for the afternoon orchestra concert only 700 shows up, and for our evening Chamber concert in the 600 seat theater, I counted about 85 (everyone else stayed home). That concert was a Bach program and it was really great ... except of course we heard not one note from the harpsichord. Well yesterday was a Baroque program which was very different in many ways ... except once again we heard not one note from the harpsichord! View AttachmentWe were in row E and with the pit raised this was three rows back, and only about 12ft from the violin soloist who stood on the left. Note also the minimalist instrumentation for this Rameau, Leclair, Locatelli, Vivaldi program. Just 12 plus the soloist vs the typical 20+. What I enjoyed the most was hearing the solo violin so clearly and so close. As she turned a little more toward or away from the audience, the timbre changed. She had a hybrid string configuration, using a gut E string which was much softer than a steel string would be ... in the quiet moments playing the highest notes of her cadenzas you could hear the sound of the bow on the string as well as the note itself. I enjoyed focusing on the sound as well as the music, as I always do. And It was interesting to correlate the sound I hear at home with the live instrument ... as on the best recordings I DO hear the bow, and the little "catch" of the string, and the changes in timbre. Remind me - next time someone waxes poetic about the sound of one DAC or another - to ask them when was the last time THEY sat 12ft from a virtuoso violinist and listened for an hour! I hear you….. My mother was a very fine classically trained pianist, and in her last years, she had a Steinway rebuilt from the company concert grand in the living room…… Such an incredible thing to hear. Not the easiest thing these days to actually hear “live music“ as everything is amplified, and the live performance itself lives or dies by the sound reinforcement system that’s rendering it It's really sad but we have pretty much given up on live music where amplification is involved. Not that the technology isn't capable of great sound ... it certainly was 10-15 years ago. But events and venues with previously great sound (Newport Jazz Festival, Philly Folk Fest) have lapsed into the trend of compressed excessive bass - +10db shelf below 100Hz - for every band. This plus the overall excessive volume masks most of the instruments and - to my musician ear - renders the music unlistenable. I have documented evidence that it's intentional. So I stay home. Acoustic music in venues without amplification suffers from other issues. Whether it be due cost, aesthetics or apathy ... they do not reinforce acoustic performances with an appropriate shell to project sound to the audience. Venues which previously have used reflective devices like this no longer do so. The sound just goes up 50 or more feet above the performers and reverberates. The sound in the audience is loud enough ... but invariably is mushy, with many instruments inaudible. |
|
|
|
Post by marcl on Feb 19, 2024 9:44:27 GMT -5
At yesterday's Chamber Orchestra concert - I believe it was at the start of the second movement of the Leclair - the conductor began tapping a rhythm on his music stand. The other musicians joined in, tapping on their instruments or tapping their feet. " III_I_I III_I_I ". I turned to Elise and whispered "that's In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida". Well they didn't play In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida, but in the post-concert discussion I asked the conductor about the origin of the beat, noting "old drummers like me would recognize it as the beginning of the drum solo from In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida" ..... I got a good laugh, and he gave a very interesting explanation, including the unfortunate case of the conductor who used a big stick that he pounded on the stage ... and one time accidently stabbed his foot, got gangreen and died!  |
|
|
|
Post by AudioHTIT on Feb 19, 2024 9:49:08 GMT -5
It's really sad but we have pretty much given up on live music where amplification is involved. Not that the technology isn't capable of great sound ... it certainly was 10-15 years ago. But events and venues with previously great sound (Newport Jazz Festival, Philly Folk Fest) have lapsed into the trend of compressed excessive bass - +10db shelf below 100Hz - for every band. This plus the overall excessive volume masks most of the instruments and - to my musician ear - renders the music unlistenable. I have documented evidence that it's intentional. So I stay home. Acoustic music in venues without amplification suffers from other issues. Whether it be due cost, aesthetics or apathy ... they do not reinforce acoustic performances with an appropriate shell to project sound to the audience. Venues which previously have used reflective devices like this no longer do so. The sound just goes up 50 or more feet above the performers and reverberates. The sound in the audience is loud enough ... but invariably is mushy, with many instruments inaudible. Though it’s very striking visuals get the lion’s share of the attention, The Sphere in Las Vegas is said to have impressive sound, at least as judged by a few friends who’ve attended shows there (though none of them are musicians or audiophiles). I’d like to see a performance there someday, to see and hear what a purpose built venue can do, and where technical theatre technology has evolved (and hopefully enjoy a favorite artist). |
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Feb 19, 2024 10:16:06 GMT -5
I recall once a very frustrating show that I had to do with a band where there wasn’t enough room for me on the stage so I was below the stage and this maddening time delay effect was just ruining everything we were a split second apart from each other for the whole show by the end of it, I thought I might shoot myself
|
|
|
|
Post by marcl on Feb 19, 2024 10:27:35 GMT -5
I recall once a very frustrating show that I had to do with a band where there wasn’t enough room for me on the stage so I was below the stage and this maddening time delay effect was just ruining everything we were a split second apart from each other for the whole show by the end of it, I thought I might shoot myself Were you playing or doing sound? |
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Feb 19, 2024 10:30:27 GMT -5
I recall once a very frustrating show that I had to do with a band where there wasn’t enough room for me on the stage so I was below the stage and this maddening time delay effect was just ruining everything we were a split second apart from each other for the whole show by the end of it, I thought I might shoot myself Were you playing or doing sound? I was on drums. It was the most strange sensation, and I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that I was below decks relatively speaking to the orchestra |
|
|
|
Post by marcl on Feb 19, 2024 10:38:36 GMT -5
Were you playing or doing sound? I was on drums. It was the most strange sensation, and I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that I was below decks relatively speaking to the orchestra Yikes! I'm a drummer too ... I can't imagine. I always hated having other musicians too far away from me. In school I encouraged the jazz band director to use the Kenton setup with rhythm section center front and horns on risers surrounding so everyone was equidistant and the directional instruments were behind instead of beside or in front of me. |
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Feb 19, 2024 11:12:54 GMT -5
I was on drums. It was the most strange sensation, and I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that I was below decks relatively speaking to the orchestra Yikes! I'm a drummer too ... I can't imagine. I always hated having other musicians too far away from me. In school I encouraged the jazz band director to use the Kenton setup with rhythm section center front and horns on risers surrounding so everyone was equidistant and the directional instruments were behind instead of beside or in front of me. Often times as a union drummer back in the day. The play for pay situation wasn’t always the best when it came to the sound, or the set up I had quite a few interesting set ups over the years, one of included me being parked next to the ladies room and having to leave my high hat in the car. Another time I had to leave a floor, Tom Tom in the car because there wasn’t enough room on the stage and it was so cold, but the drum froze in the car and the pearl coat on the drum cracked what a drag |
|
|
|
Post by marcl on Oct 21, 2024 8:58:16 GMT -5
Visit to Clair GlobalI recently joined Philadelphia Area Audio group, and one of our members works for Clair Global. He gave us a tour of their massive facility in Lititz, PA yesterday. Clair Bros invented the concept of touring sound systems when Frankie Valley asked them to bring a system on tour with The 4 Seasons in 1966. Now Clair Global does 80% of the large venue touring sound systems worldwide. While we were there they were preparing systems for Phish and Trans Siberian Orchestra. The tour was totally mind-blowing ... the logistics are beyond anything you might expect ... the amount of gear to be built, tested, organized, connected and disconnected and transported ... crazy! They have to build all their own cables, so they run a cable shop two shifts, five days a week. The wood shop is stocked with tons of plywood, two CNC machines and dozens of speaker cabinets in production. Being in Amish country there are lots of good woodworkers available. Every cable that comes back from tour is 100% tested. The chain winches that are used to hoist tons of gear into the air are tested and repaired in the shop. All the touring cases are sized to fit efficiently in tractor trailers, Power cables can be adapted for whatever voltage system they encounter worldwide, The subwoofers use two 18" custom drivers with a 9KW amp in each cabinet. Amplifiers are "Class T" designs with digital inputs and built in DSP so they can be programmed and controlled over the network. They're in racks of 9 with one spare ... 20,000W each! And imagine the complexity of wireless gear ... microphones, in-ear monitors ... they build and repair helical antennae that have to be placed all around the stages to ensure connectivity. They have acoustic profiles of all the major venues in the world to get them started configuring all the speakers and amps, and they have simulator software to get the mixes close without a sound check, and they record performances so at the next venue they can play back the previous performance through all the same channels and check the sound. They even have a $100k Klippel Near Field Scanner for speaker measurements. And then there is the rehearsal building. It's 100x250x100ft and can stage a stadium-sized touring system with the entire stage and sound system. It was intended to work out logistics, assembly, disassembly, load in/out processes. Work all that out in one place rather than have to pay for time at each venue, flying people in and paying local labor. 1,000,000lbs of gear can be hung from the ceiling. When it was built it was just a prefab steel building because they didn't expect to actually have performers rehearse. But then it started happening and neighbors 1000ft away were complaining. So they coated the inside of the building with 40lb/sqft of sprayed concrete, put in air lock doors ... and bought the house of the most annoyed neighbor! Well that was a crazy couple hours on a quiet Sunday morning. Then our group moved on to one of our "normal" style gatherings ... this time at Now Listen Here, a high end audio dealership run from the very nice home of one of our members. He and his wife have configured their dining room and two bedrooms with hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of high end audio gear. We had our usual lunch of hoagies and snacks and drinks and listened to systems with Bel Canto, Von Schweikert, Joseph Audio, REL .... a $35k streamer paired to its $40k DAC. With a smaller group than usual (only 12 compared to our usual 30-40) we had lots of time to move from room to room and take a turn in the MLP. The systems sounded relatively okay to my ear ...  So ... a few pictures here ... a few in the next post ...     
|
|
|
|
Post by marcl on Oct 21, 2024 8:59:39 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by marcl on Oct 21, 2024 9:00:54 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Oct 21, 2024 10:24:06 GMT -5
Two Friday evenings ago, I was once again reminded what it’s like to go to a live performance when the performers have lost site of their own sound as it’s projected out into the audience.
………… A devastating experience indeed where we were forced to leave our friends that night and jump ship to save my ears.
Interesting when I got outside and with the shelter of being away from the band, I could hear them sounding better than when you were inside the venue… That’s bad
|
|
|
|
Post by marcl on Oct 21, 2024 10:41:00 GMT -5
Two Friday evenings ago, I was once again reminded what it’s like to go to a live performance when the performers have lost site of their own sound as it’s projected out into the audience. ………… A devastating experience indeed where we were forced to leave our friends that night and jump ship to save my ears. Interesting when I got outside and with the shelter of being away from the band, I could hear them sounding better than when you were inside the venue… That’s bad I think I've mentioned before that I no longer go to Newport Jazz Festival and Philadelphia Folk Festival because the sound got to be so unbearable since 2018-2019 ... and I think my wife got really tired of hearing me complain about it (though she totally agreed). So this is the paradox that I see in many areas of music and sound production. When you talk to the technical creators they describe a very complex process with meticulous attention to minute details ... and of course it's something that only those with years of experience can execute effectively due to their highly trained ears ... often ears that can hear what a measurement can't reveal, or so they say ... not that they measure. Then you listen to the result and all you hear is noise. And at live events the bass is boosted and compressed to a constant deafening +10db drone below 100Hz ... sustained over 95db and often as high as 100. And yes, i measured it and confirmed that it was intentional. I don't understand it. Even at the second stop yesterday listening to >$100k systems, the bass was boomy, distracting and totally muddied up the sound. I always Shazam the tracks that people play in demos, then go right home and listen on my system ... and it all sounds fine. |
|
KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,256
Member is Online
|
Post by KeithL on Oct 21, 2024 15:19:18 GMT -5
Sadly this sounds like a modern version of something that happened several years ago... Someone did a survey to determine whether the average listener could hear the difference between a CD and an MP3 file... Unsurprisingly most people could hear the difference in a direct comparison. The surprise was that many people preferred the MP3 files. (Presumably because "that was the sound they were used to".) We might reasonably assume that many engineers at live events now aim to have their mix "sound like what people expect it to"... And, sadly, the expectations of many people these days are created by a pair of cheap ear buds connected to their phone. (Which, for most people, have lately replaced their car radio and their boom box as "what they usually listen to".) One thing you can do to mitigate the damage is to get a good pair of earplugs... The decent ones reduce the level significantly while not messing up the sound quality too badly... (Of course, at that point, you might as well stay home and listen to a good sound system.) Two Friday evenings ago, I was once again reminded what it’s like to go to a live performance when the performers have lost site of their own sound as it’s projected out into the audience. ………… A devastating experience indeed where we were forced to leave our friends that night and jump ship to save my ears. Interesting when I got outside and with the shelter of being away from the band, I could hear them sounding better than when you were inside the venue… That’s bad I think I've mentioned before that I no longer go to Newport Jazz Festival and Philadelphia Folk Festival because the sound got to be so unbearable since 2018-2019 ... and I think my wife got really tired of hearing me complain about it (though she totally agreed). So this is the paradox that I see in many areas of music and sound production. When you talk to the technical creators they describe a very complex process with meticulous attention to minute details ... and of course it's something that only those with years of experience can execute effectively due to their highly trained ears ... often ears that can hear what a measurement can't reveal, or so they say ... not that they measure. Then you listen to the result and all you hear is noise. And at live events the bass is boosted and compressed to a constant deafening +10db drone below 100Hz ... sustained over 95db and often as high as 100. And yes, i measured it and confirmed that it was intentional. I don't understand it. Even at the second stop yesterday listening to >$100k systems, the bass was boomy, distracting and totally muddied up the sound. I always Shazam the tracks that people play in demos, then go right home and listen on my system ... and it all sounds fine. |
|
|
|
Post by marcl on Oct 21, 2024 15:41:23 GMT -5
Sadly this sounds like a modern version of something that happened several years ago... Someone did a survey to determine whether the average listener could hear the difference between a CD and an MP3 file... Unsurprisingly most people could hear the difference in a direct comparison. The surprise was that many people preferred the MP3 files. (Presumably because "that was the sound they were used to".) We might reasonably assume that many engineers at live events now aim to have their mix "sound like what people expect it to"... And, sadly, the expectations of many people these days are created by a pair of cheap ear buds connected to their phone. (Which, for most people, have lately replaced their car radio and their boom box as "what they usually listen to".) One thing you can do to mitigate the damage is to get a good pair of earplugs... The decent ones reduce the level significantly while not messing up the sound quality too badly... (Of course, at that point, you might as well stay home and listen to a good sound system.) Yep ... here are the ones I used at the last two festivals I attended.  But ... they lower the whole mix by 10db and the bass is still +10 from the rest of the mix and it sounds terrible. |
|
|
|
Post by marcl on Oct 28, 2024 0:51:05 GMT -5
We arrived at the Kimmel Center in Philadelphia to attend a concert with the Curtis Symphony and the string trio Time for Three. They scanned our tickets and we went in looking for our seats middle of row W ... only to find a mixing board in the space where our seats should have been. We asked the usher and he looked bewildered ... told us to go to the box office. They knew immediately what was going on and had replacement tickets ready for us. We moved up from W to N ... 10 rows back from the stage. The seats were great but actually I recall purposely picking row W because I wanted to sit farther back and up a bit to see if I liked the sound of the orchestra from that location. Several years ago - the only other time we've heard an orchestra in the big hall - we were in the middle of the floor and we both felt the sound was mushy ... could barely hear the soloist ... who happened to be Itzhak Perlman ... no slouch! Well we enjoyed the concert a lot but I experienced something I have experienced in the smaller Perelman Theater ... the first half the sound was loud but mushy and I had great difficulty hearing the instruments as anything but a mass of sound. Then in the second half it was significantly better ... and as the 45minute Prokofiev piece progressed I found that I could hear greater and greater detail. Even the same triangle played 100ft away during the first half, was more distinct now. So it just goes to show ya .... p.s. yes I did some measurements to look at frequency spectrum as the bass was particularly strong at times. And I measured one peak at 96dbc early in the program which was definitely followed by a couple that were louder ... maybe not over 100 but close. Note also that during intermission, the ambient din of conversation was a surprisingly loud 86dbC!  |
|
