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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 3, 2022 10:51:36 GMT -5
And isn't it interesting how very few popular music groups can play their own songs in any way that sounds even remotely like their studio albums? Years (decades? centuries? ages?) ago, I was working traffic for the Campus Police when Jethro Tull was playing in the university auditorium. It was their "Thick as a Brick" tour. Since traffic control was over by the time that the concert was about to start, and since I got free entry, and, mostly, since I liked Jethro Tull, I went in and listened to their performance. They played through the entire Thick as a Brick album and if I had worn a blindfold, I'd have sworn that I was listening to the studio album. They were THAT note-perfect. I've never before or since seen ANY group that could do that. Ever. At the end of the Thick as a Brick material, Ian Anderson approached the microphone and quipped "And now, for our second song..." Brought down the house! … I think “Thick as a Brick” was possibly JT’s best, I’m sure it was great to hear it played completely, I’ve seen them a few times and always a good show. I think the first band to play a complete album was The Who with “Tommy”, and then again with “Quadrophenia” (fortunate to see both); it only seemed to become popular again about 20 years ago when many bands started touring past albums. One of my favorite album shows was Todd Rundgren’s “A Wizard A True Star” played at a smaller local venue. As for “sounding” like the album, I agree with the comment that essentially the album is a sound unto its own, that never existed in the wild. I mentioned above that Randy McStien was tasked with playing and singing some of Steven Wilson’s parts from the album, but with Wilson’s multi-layered production, unique voice, and deep guitar effects, that’s an ambitious ask. In some cases McStien’s guitar parts were spot on, I even felt he was ‘leashed’ to Steven’s recorded part, but occasionally (almost as if told to let it rip) he would add his signature to the part. In another song (my favorite “Dignity” from the C/C album), Wilson played acoustic, and they altered the the songs dramatic chord picking line to build more slowly (first just acoustic, then muted electric, then full on electric), I thought it was brilliant. So while for some music it’s certainly fun to hear a song sound like the recording, sometimes it can be better with a live version. When I saw the Quadrophenia “reprise” tour it was very different than the original tour, primarily because Keith Moon and John Entwistle are gone, but Pete Townshend gave credit to their music director, for teaching the band to again sound like the album.
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Post by marcl on Feb 20, 2023 13:16:34 GMT -5
I was able to do a little quantitative listening test at the Perelman Theater yesterday. We went to hear the Phila Chamber Orchestra concert that included a Beethoven piano concerto. Our seats were in row D which in the past has been the fourth row, but due to the need for space for the piano they raised the pit, extending the stage over the first two rows. So we were the same distance from the orchestra as usual, but with only one row of seats in front of us and the piano about 8ft away. The orchestra configuration was 11 fiddles, 4 viola, 3 cello, 2 basses, 2 horns, 2 bassoons, 2 oboes 1 flute … plus the Steinway for the Beethoven only. I opened the SPL meter on my phone and had it sitting on my lap during the piano concerto. First I measured the ambient noise of the room at the quietest moment between when all the geezers stopped coughing and the orchestra started … 46dbC. For reference, my room at home can get down to 43 if the refrigerator compressor and HVAC fan are off. Note that a dbA measurement would usually be quieter because it eliminates the low frequencies. During the performance typical levels ranged between 75-85dbC, with peaks during the loudest piano solo at 95dbC. Full orchestra peaks were more like 91. Remember, the piano was about 8ft away and since it was on the stage we were actually looking up at the bottom of the sounding board. Of course it sounded great! Not a bit too loud. Next month there’s a Bach program that will include a harpsichord. We’ll probably go, and this time try seats maybe 8-10 rows back. BTW, the seats 10 rows back cost about $20 more than the second row seats. Photo is from another concert where the pit was stuck down and had no seats. The front row you see in this photo is C. So today I found a chamber orchestra recording in my library of the same Beethoven Concerto No.2 ... a BIS 5.1 96/24 recording originally released on SACD. I also found this recording and another with different players on Apple Music. I listened to the 96/24 recording and found dynamic range to be similar to the live performance based on a similar average level. Slightly lower piano peaks than the live performance, likely due mostly to the difference between the concert Steinway at the Perelman 8ft from me, vs the fortepiano used in the recording. Then I listened to the Apple Music recordings and - maybe not surprisingly - significantly less dynamic range. At the same average level the same BIS recording didn't come near peaking at 90db. The other recording with a slightly higher average level barely peaked at 90. I'll say a couple things based on this listening experience .... it sounded great at "reference" level in my room ... and, no this does not prove that 96/24 sounds better than 48/24
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Post by marcl on Feb 19, 2024 7:29:25 GMT -5
We returned to the Perelman Theater in Philadelphia for our second concert of the Chamber Orchestra season. The first was last month and there happened to be a snowstorm and while this made for very easy driving to the City (everyone else stayed home) ... we heard that of 2000 tickets sold for the afternoon orchestra concert only 700 shows up, and for our evening Chamber concert in the 600 seat theater, I counted about 85 (everyone else stayed home). That concert was a Bach program and it was really great ... except of course we heard not one note from the harpsichord. Well yesterday was a Baroque program which was very different in many ways ... except once again we heard not one note from the harpsichord! We were in row E and with the pit raised this was three rows back, and only about 12ft from the violin soloist who stood on the left. Note also the minimalist instrumentation for this Rameau, Leclair, Locatelli, Vivaldi program. Just 12 plus the soloist vs the typical 20+. What I enjoyed the most was hearing the solo violin so clearly and so close. As she turned a little more toward or away from the audience, the timbre changed. She had a hybrid string configuration, using a gut E string which was much softer than a steel string would be ... in the quiet moments playing the highest notes of her cadenzas you could hear the sound of the bow on the string as well as the note itself. I enjoyed focusing on the sound as well as the music, as I always do. And It was interesting to correlate the sound I hear at home with the live instrument ... as on the best recordings I DO hear the bow, and the little "catch" of the string, and the changes in timbre. Remind me - next time someone waxes poetic about the sound of one DAC or another - to ask them when was the last time THEY sat 12ft from a virtuoso violinist and listened for an hour!
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Post by 405x5 on Feb 19, 2024 9:11:30 GMT -5
We returned to the Perelman Theater in Philadelphia for our second concert of the Chamber Orchestra season. The first was last month and there happened to be a snowstorm and while this made for very easy driving to the City (everyone else stayed home) ... we heard that of 2000 tickets sold for the afternoon orchestra concert only 700 shows up, and for our evening Chamber concert in the 600 seat theater, I counted about 85 (everyone else stayed home). That concert was a Bach program and it was really great ... except of course we heard not one note from the harpsichord. Well yesterday was a Baroque program which was very different in many ways ... except once again we heard not one note from the harpsichord! View AttachmentWe were in row E and with the pit raised this was three rows back, and only about 12ft from the violin soloist who stood on the left. Note also the minimalist instrumentation for this Rameau, Leclair, Locatelli, Vivaldi program. Just 12 plus the soloist vs the typical 20+. What I enjoyed the most was hearing the solo violin so clearly and so close. As she turned a little more toward or away from the audience, the timbre changed. She had a hybrid string configuration, using a gut E string which was much softer than a steel string would be ... in the quiet moments playing the highest notes of her cadenzas you could hear the sound of the bow on the string as well as the note itself. I enjoyed focusing on the sound as well as the music, as I always do. And It was interesting to correlate the sound I hear at home with the live instrument ... as on the best recordings I DO hear the bow, and the little "catch" of the string, and the changes in timbre. Remind me - next time someone waxes poetic about the sound of one DAC or another - to ask them when was the last time THEY sat 12ft from a virtuoso violinist and listened for an hour! I hear you….. My mother was a very fine classically trained pianist, and in her last years, she had a Steinway rebuilt from the company concert grand in the living room…… Such an incredible thing to hear. Not the easiest thing these days to actually hear “live music“ as everything is amplified, and the live performance itself lives or dies by the sound reinforcement system that’s rendering it
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Post by marcl on Feb 19, 2024 9:30:38 GMT -5
We returned to the Perelman Theater in Philadelphia for our second concert of the Chamber Orchestra season. The first was last month and there happened to be a snowstorm and while this made for very easy driving to the City (everyone else stayed home) ... we heard that of 2000 tickets sold for the afternoon orchestra concert only 700 shows up, and for our evening Chamber concert in the 600 seat theater, I counted about 85 (everyone else stayed home). That concert was a Bach program and it was really great ... except of course we heard not one note from the harpsichord. Well yesterday was a Baroque program which was very different in many ways ... except once again we heard not one note from the harpsichord! View AttachmentWe were in row E and with the pit raised this was three rows back, and only about 12ft from the violin soloist who stood on the left. Note also the minimalist instrumentation for this Rameau, Leclair, Locatelli, Vivaldi program. Just 12 plus the soloist vs the typical 20+. What I enjoyed the most was hearing the solo violin so clearly and so close. As she turned a little more toward or away from the audience, the timbre changed. She had a hybrid string configuration, using a gut E string which was much softer than a steel string would be ... in the quiet moments playing the highest notes of her cadenzas you could hear the sound of the bow on the string as well as the note itself. I enjoyed focusing on the sound as well as the music, as I always do. And It was interesting to correlate the sound I hear at home with the live instrument ... as on the best recordings I DO hear the bow, and the little "catch" of the string, and the changes in timbre. Remind me - next time someone waxes poetic about the sound of one DAC or another - to ask them when was the last time THEY sat 12ft from a virtuoso violinist and listened for an hour! I hear you….. My mother was a very fine classically trained pianist, and in her last years, she had a Steinway rebuilt from the company concert grand in the living room…… Such an incredible thing to hear. Not the easiest thing these days to actually hear “live music“ as everything is amplified, and the live performance itself lives or dies by the sound reinforcement system that’s rendering it It's really sad but we have pretty much given up on live music where amplification is involved. Not that the technology isn't capable of great sound ... it certainly was 10-15 years ago. But events and venues with previously great sound (Newport Jazz Festival, Philly Folk Fest) have lapsed into the trend of compressed excessive bass - +10db shelf below 100Hz - for every band. This plus the overall excessive volume masks most of the instruments and - to my musician ear - renders the music unlistenable. I have documented evidence that it's intentional. So I stay home. Acoustic music in venues without amplification suffers from other issues. Whether it be due cost, aesthetics or apathy ... they do not reinforce acoustic performances with an appropriate shell to project sound to the audience. Venues which previously have used reflective devices like this no longer do so. The sound just goes up 50 or more feet above the performers and reverberates. The sound in the audience is loud enough ... but invariably is mushy, with many instruments inaudible.
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Post by marcl on Feb 19, 2024 9:44:27 GMT -5
At yesterday's Chamber Orchestra concert - I believe it was at the start of the second movement of the Leclair - the conductor began tapping a rhythm on his music stand. The other musicians joined in, tapping on their instruments or tapping their feet. " III_I_I III_I_I ". I turned to Elise and whispered "that's In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida". Well they didn't play In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida, but in the post-concert discussion I asked the conductor about the origin of the beat, noting "old drummers like me would recognize it as the beginning of the drum solo from In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida" ..... I got a good laugh, and he gave a very interesting explanation, including the unfortunate case of the conductor who used a big stick that he pounded on the stage ... and one time accidently stabbed his foot, got gangreen and died!
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Post by AudioHTIT on Feb 19, 2024 9:49:08 GMT -5
It's really sad but we have pretty much given up on live music where amplification is involved. Not that the technology isn't capable of great sound ... it certainly was 10-15 years ago. But events and venues with previously great sound (Newport Jazz Festival, Philly Folk Fest) have lapsed into the trend of compressed excessive bass - +10db shelf below 100Hz - for every band. This plus the overall excessive volume masks most of the instruments and - to my musician ear - renders the music unlistenable. I have documented evidence that it's intentional. So I stay home. Acoustic music in venues without amplification suffers from other issues. Whether it be due cost, aesthetics or apathy ... they do not reinforce acoustic performances with an appropriate shell to project sound to the audience. Venues which previously have used reflective devices like this no longer do so. The sound just goes up 50 or more feet above the performers and reverberates. The sound in the audience is loud enough ... but invariably is mushy, with many instruments inaudible. Though it’s very striking visuals get the lion’s share of the attention, The Sphere in Las Vegas is said to have impressive sound, at least as judged by a few friends who’ve attended shows there (though none of them are musicians or audiophiles). I’d like to see a performance there someday, to see and hear what a purpose built venue can do, and where technical theatre technology has evolved (and hopefully enjoy a favorite artist).
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Post by 405x5 on Feb 19, 2024 10:16:06 GMT -5
I recall once a very frustrating show that I had to do with a band where there wasn’t enough room for me on the stage so I was below the stage and this maddening time delay effect was just ruining everything we were a split second apart from each other for the whole show by the end of it, I thought I might shoot myself
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Post by marcl on Feb 19, 2024 10:27:35 GMT -5
I recall once a very frustrating show that I had to do with a band where there wasn’t enough room for me on the stage so I was below the stage and this maddening time delay effect was just ruining everything we were a split second apart from each other for the whole show by the end of it, I thought I might shoot myself Were you playing or doing sound?
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Post by 405x5 on Feb 19, 2024 10:30:27 GMT -5
I recall once a very frustrating show that I had to do with a band where there wasn’t enough room for me on the stage so I was below the stage and this maddening time delay effect was just ruining everything we were a split second apart from each other for the whole show by the end of it, I thought I might shoot myself Were you playing or doing sound? I was on drums. It was the most strange sensation, and I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that I was below decks relatively speaking to the orchestra
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Post by marcl on Feb 19, 2024 10:38:36 GMT -5
Were you playing or doing sound? I was on drums. It was the most strange sensation, and I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that I was below decks relatively speaking to the orchestra Yikes! I'm a drummer too ... I can't imagine. I always hated having other musicians too far away from me. In school I encouraged the jazz band director to use the Kenton setup with rhythm section center front and horns on risers surrounding so everyone was equidistant and the directional instruments were behind instead of beside or in front of me.
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Post by 405x5 on Feb 19, 2024 11:12:54 GMT -5
I was on drums. It was the most strange sensation, and I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that I was below decks relatively speaking to the orchestra Yikes! I'm a drummer too ... I can't imagine. I always hated having other musicians too far away from me. In school I encouraged the jazz band director to use the Kenton setup with rhythm section center front and horns on risers surrounding so everyone was equidistant and the directional instruments were behind instead of beside or in front of me. Often times as a union drummer back in the day. The play for pay situation wasn’t always the best when it came to the sound, or the set up I had quite a few interesting set ups over the years, one of included me being parked next to the ladies room and having to leave my high hat in the car. Another time I had to leave a floor, Tom Tom in the car because there wasn’t enough room on the stage and it was so cold, but the drum froze in the car and the pearl coat on the drum cracked what a drag
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