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Post by soundvark on Jun 16, 2022 2:21:03 GMT -5
Mostly analogue setup here with an XSP-1 and 2 HC-1's driving Magnepan 3.5, VPI Aries 3 with Ortofon MC20 Super II and Goldnote PH-10 phono stage. Teac NT503 DAC for streaming and other digital sources like TV and a cheap bluray player.
I usually play vinyl but occasionally play through Qobuz or some locally ripped CD's.
I am considering getting some SACD's, mostly looking for specials, MoFi or Analogue Productions. Decent masterings. SACD versions are typically half the price of vinyl versions and can be found even cheaper 2nd hand.
So, I just found a Denon A11, it seems to be an alround player not specifically focused on the sound quality with SACD's. I can get it for 150 euros so the price is very decent but Im looking for some experiences. How would it match with the rest of my system?
I can't find any decent reviews on the sound quality from an audiophile perspective, any opinions?
Thanks!
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Post by audiosyndrome on Jun 16, 2022 8:53:51 GMT -5
You would be best served with a pre owned Oppo 205, 105, 95, etc.
Russ
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jun 16, 2022 9:03:24 GMT -5
Mostly analogue setup here with an XSP-1 and 2 HC-1's driving Magnepan 3.5, VPI Aries 3 with Ortofon MC20 Super II and Goldnote PH-10 phono stage. Teac NT503 DAC for streaming and other digital sources like TV and a cheap bluray player. I usually play vinyl but occasionally play through Qobuz or some locally ripped CD's. I am considering getting some SACD's, mostly looking for specials, MoFi or Analogue Productions. Decent masterings. SACD versions are typically half the price of vinyl versions and can be found even cheaper 2nd hand. So, I just found a Denon A11, it seems to be an alround player not specifically focused on the sound quality with SACD's. I can get it for 150 euros so the price is very decent but Im looking for some experiences. How would it match with the rest of my system? I can't find any decent reviews on the sound quality from an audiophile perspective, any opinions? Thanks! I have no experience with the Denon, but questions I would ask are whether it can output a digital signal that your DAC can decode (DSD)?. If it does then in my opinion you mostly need to be concerned that the Denon’s transport is ‘sound’ (no pun intended, but appropriate), as your DAC would be the primarily contributor to the sound. Or is you intention to use the Denon’s DAC and run analog to the XSP-1? Just considerations. |
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Post by soundvark on Jun 16, 2022 9:27:35 GMT -5
I have no experience with the Denon, but questions I would ask are whether it can output a digital signal that your DAC can decode (DSD)?. If it does then in my opinion you mostly need to be concerned that the Denon’s transport is ‘sound’ (no pun intended, but appropriate), as your DAC would be the primarily contributor to the sound. Or is you intention to use the Denon’s DAC and run analog to the XSP-1? Just considerations. I see I created some confusion. While my DAC can do DSD, it only does it on USB and network streaming. I don't know of any SACD player that can output raw DSD streams to an external DSD compatible DAC. Hence the question about sound quality, the internal SACD players' DAC would be responsible for the sound quality with its analogue outputs. Old Denon (this model is from 2004 I believe) were quite good, but I don't know about specific models. You would be best served with a pre owned Oppo 205, 105, 95, etc. Russ Would you mind elaborating why you think so? Please check my reply to audiohit as well, I am not looking at using my DAC as it cannot do DSD other than USB or network. Thanks both! |
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Post by audiosyndrome on Jun 16, 2022 10:14:28 GMT -5
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KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,273
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Post by KeithL on Jun 16, 2022 12:03:18 GMT -5
The Oppo players can output actual DSD - but only via HDMI. Some other "universal players" can also output DSD via HDMI. And the DACs in our XMC and RMC processors can accept DSD directly via HDMI if you send it to them. (In which case you have the choice of having the disc player output DSD or convert the output to PCM.) The XSP-1 is a purely analog preamp... so it has neither DACs nor digital inputs... and so cannot accept a DSD input signal. And, as such, the sound quality and sonic signature of what you hear will depend mostly on the DACs in your SACD player. The Oppo 95, Oppo 105, and Oppo 205 use ESS Sabre DACs... which are considered to be good DACs. They actually do tend to have a bit of a "house sound" in many devices - of being "a bit bright and slightly too detailed"... However their implementation in the Oppo players is relatively neutral and sounds quite good. Note that the Oppo 93, Oppo 103, and Oppo 203 use different DACs... but their sound quality is pretty good too. One really nice thing about the Oppo players is that they support and will play a HUGE variety of different types of audio files. The sound quality of other disc players varies considerably ... And, on a given player, there may be a difference in sound quality between DSD and PCM (they use somewhat different circuitry) ... Also, as you probably know, most but not all SACD discs are Hybrid discs... This means that they have both a DSD later and a standard Red Book CD layer that will play on ordinary CD players... (And there may or may not be a noticeable difference between the two layers.) Software-based players often support DSD playback over "DoP" or "pure DSD" (which are both really just slightly different forms of encapsulated DSD). None of our processors currently support this - although it is still on the roadmap for the XMC-2 and RMC-1. There may also be streaming devices or computer-based software that supports DSD via HDMI. I would also add that ANYTHING claimed for vintage CD players should be taken with "two full grains of salt". In general DAC technology has improved steadily over the last few decades... Many vintage DACs and CD players use DAC chips that actually have relatively poor performance... But, because some have developed cult followings, their sonic virtues are often exaggerated, and their obvious failings often ignored. (Some actually sound quite nice, in spite of poor specifications, but many really don't.) I have no experience with the Denon, but questions I would ask are whether it can output a digital signal that your DAC can decode (DSD)?. If it does then in my opinion you mostly need to be concerned that the Denon’s transport is ‘sound’ (no pun intended, but appropriate), as your DAC would be the primarily contributor to the sound. Or is you intention to use the Denon’s DAC and run analog to the XSP-1? Just considerations. I see I created some confusion. While my DAC can do DSD, it only does it on USB and network streaming. I don't know of any SACD player that can output raw DSD streams to an external DSD compatible DAC. Hence the question about sound quality, the internal SACD players' DAC would be responsible for the sound quality with its analogue outputs. Old Denon (this model is from 2004 I believe) were quite good, but I don't know about specific models. You would be best served with a pre owned Oppo 205, 105, 95, etc. Russ Would you mind elaborating why you think so? Please check my reply to audiohit as well, I am not looking at using my DAC as it cannot do DSD other than USB or network. Thanks both! |
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,273
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Post by KeithL on Jun 16, 2022 14:02:56 GMT -5
I think I may be able to clear up some confusion here... What your DAC supports is "DSD over USB" - which is NOT what most people mean by "a pure DSD stream from an SACD". What your DAC supports is "DSD over USB". There are actually two varieties of this: "DoP" - which is "DSD-over-PCM" (over USB). "Native DSD" - which is really just a different flavor of DoP (it has a slight bandwidth advantage but requires a driver). These are both "packetized DSD" (the DSD audio is broken into packets which are then sent via PCM or USB and put back together at the other end). Quite a few USB-input DACs support DoP lately. DoP can technically be done over other sorts of digital audio connections but rarely is. Most COMPUTER-based sources support USB OUTPUT and many support some version of DoP via their USB audio output. (It's actually up to the player software and many do support it.) HOWEVER this is NOT what most people are describing when they talk about "plain old DSD" or "pure DSD". Players like the Oppo have the ability to play an actual DSD disc (SACD) or DSD file and send that DSD signal out of their HDMI output. This is only going to work when you connect their output to a DAC or processor that supports DSD. (It CANNOT be sent over a USB connection.) And most of the sort of players that support THIS option, including the Oppo players, DO NOT have USB audio outputs. For example an Oppo played can play DSD from an SACD disc via its HDMI output. And, if you connect the output of an Oppo to an RMC-1, and configure it correctly, it can send a real true DSD audio stream to the RMC-1. The Oppo also it has a USB INPUT where you can play files from a USB stick. But the Oppo does not have a USB audio output and does not support creating a DoP output from an SACD disc. (The Oppo also doesn't have a USB audio output you can connect to an external USB DAC.) There may be one or two modern "all in one players" that can do this... But offhand I don't know of any. I have no experience with the Denon, but questions I would ask are whether it can output a digital signal that your DAC can decode (DSD)?. If it does then in my opinion you mostly need to be concerned that the Denon’s transport is ‘sound’ (no pun intended, but appropriate), as your DAC would be the primarily contributor to the sound. Or is you intention to use the Denon’s DAC and run analog to the XSP-1? Just considerations. I see I created some confusion. While my DAC can do DSD, it only does it on USB and network streaming. I don't know of any SACD player that can output raw DSD streams to an external DSD compatible DAC. Hence the question about sound quality, the internal SACD players' DAC would be responsible for the sound quality with its analogue outputs. Old Denon (this model is from 2004 I believe) were quite good, but I don't know about specific models. You would be best served with a pre owned Oppo 205, 105, 95, etc. Russ Would you mind elaborating why you think so? Please check my reply to audiohit as well, I am not looking at using my DAC as it cannot do DSD other than USB or network. Thanks both! |
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Post by soundvark on Jun 17, 2022 1:04:28 GMT -5
Thanks for the elaborate replies Keith.
I am not looking to use my DAC, it already serves a purpose and I simply mentioned it to give a complete picture of what I am currently running.
The SACD player simply needs to output analog and do it well considering its for music. I have no interest in video, dvd, bluray, or multichannel for that matter, and the player just needs to be good and musically pleasant to listen to for cd and sacd's.
When I listen to dsd (1x, or dsd64) I find that it is typically more pleasant to listen to, or less fatiguing than 16 or 24 bit encoded music (same source/mastering). Higher dsd types like 2x, 4x etc seem to increase fatigue again. Its all very subjective and maybe (probably?) Im just a victim of my own expectation bias in this matter. Hence Im not looking for something that breaks the bank like some 4 or even 5 figures audiophile sacd player.
I think I understand perfectly when you speak of bright or too detailed, things like that are definitely a no-go. I have had CD players here that are like that and I always find myself using the digital optical or coax outputs and feed it into my DAC. The one I have here now is a Panasonic bluray player and it sounds like that too. In addition, it lacks width and depth, soundstage is mediocre. I don't use it and I have ripped my CD's and play them through a software player using the USB DAC.
So to restate the question, Im simply looking for some ideas on sacd players that people find musically good performers for audio listening.
Thanks!
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jun 17, 2022 6:39:20 GMT -5
The Oppos are very good, and those with ‘5’ in the model number have especially good DACs, but even the oldest BDP-95 just went for quadruple the cost of the Denon on eBay, and the newer models are much more. Sony players also sound good, but sometimes aren’t as smooth in operation, and can have glitchy firmware, but still are worth considering in the same price range as the Denon (which at that price might be worth a try).
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Post by mgbpuff on Jun 17, 2022 6:41:22 GMT -5
Get a GeerFab D-Bob (a DSD64 to DOP digital breakout box HDMI licensed to do so) and a current cheap 4k Blu-ray / SACD player with two HDMI outputs. The Denon is a dinosaur. Then choose your own 24/192 DSD capable DAC and connect to GeerFab via SPDIF coax (not USB). www.stereophile.com/content/geerfab-audio-dbob-digital-breakout-boxI have the D-Bob which costs Approx $1000, but if you are careful, Chinese de-imbedders are avail that do the same thing for far less (probably illegal however). Another option is to rip all of your SACDs to DSD64 files (really also illegal, I believe) and play them over your server or computer |
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Post by soundvark on Jun 18, 2022 10:26:39 GMT -5
Appreciate the replies.
I went for a Marantz SA-11 S1, it's in absolute mint condition and was recently serviced. Above budget but a very good deal nonetheless.
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