ekohn
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 5
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Post by ekohn on Jul 1, 2022 7:59:49 GMT -5
This would replace my old Denon Amp, which is failing ......  The 800 watts of the DR2 is more power than I have today. But I'm still wondering if the 2xXPA-DR1s are worth the extra 200 watts and $1000??? The trick here might be the power hungry Thiel CS3.7. thanks. |
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Post by leonski on Jul 1, 2022 8:26:55 GMT -5
Better watts are better.
You don't need more power.
Stereophile measured over 90db sensitivity, which ain't chopped liver.
What IS of concern is the low average impedance.
I'd be more concerned with an amps ability to be compfortable with this lower than average impedance rather that simply more watts.....
Those are terrific speakers deserving of 1st rate amps. I could name names, but that's not the same as you checking stuff out and going for
a listen. If you are outside a big city, make some appointments and take the wife for a weekend. Visit some retail shops and go for dinner and a movie....
I'm amazed the Denon is working at all.....if it was an HT piece...
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ekohn
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 5
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Post by ekohn on Jul 1, 2022 18:56:39 GMT -5
Those are terrific speakers deserving of 1st rate amps. I could name names, but that's not the same as you checking stuff out and going for a listen. If you are outside a big city, make some appointments and take the wife for a weekend. Visit some retail shops and go for dinner and a movie.... thanks for the info. Unfortunately these days, I don't have the budget for the perfect amp. So I was considering Emotive as an alternative. Now I'm concerned based on your note that they won't handle the low impedance. I'd like a nice Bryston, but again it's not in the budget this year. and yes I have a denon POA-AIHDC....it's been a pretty good workhorse for 10+ years. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 1, 2022 19:03:19 GMT -5
I think you ought to just sell me those Thiels and buy yourself some new, easier-to-drive speakers!
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Post by DavidR on Jul 1, 2022 19:36:30 GMT -5
As long as the amp can handle the speaker specs you should be good >>>
Three-way, floorstanding loudspeaker. Drive-units: 1" (25mm) aluminum-dome tweeter mounted coincidentally within 4.5" flat aluminum midrange driver, 10" (254mm) flat aluminum woofer, 10" (254mm) flat aluminum passive radiator. Crossover slopes: acoustic first-order. Frequency response: 33Hz–26kHz, ±2dB. Phase response: ±10° minimum. Impedance: 4 ohms nominal, 2.8 ohms minimum. Sensitivity: 90 dB/2.83V/m. Recommended power: 100–600W.
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Post by leonski on Jul 1, 2022 20:29:13 GMT -5
As long as the amp can handle the speaker specs you should be good >>>
Three-way, floorstanding loudspeaker. Drive-units: 1" (25mm) aluminum-dome tweeter mounted coincidentally within 4.5" flat aluminum midrange driver, 10" (254mm) flat aluminum woofer, 10" (254mm) flat aluminum passive radiator. Crossover slopes: acoustic first-order. Frequency response: 33Hz–26kHz, ±2dB. Phase response: ±10° minimum. Impedance: 4 ohms nominal, 2.8 ohms minimum. Sensitivity: 90 dB/2.83V/m. Recommended power: 100–600W.
As much as we ALL rely on advertising? My Go-To for measured data is Stereophile. www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs37-loudspeaker-measurements. Where the impedance and phase lines CROSS at a low number / high phase angle is considered a 'bad thing' But be that all as it may? With a 30 day return policy? What's the downside? Isn't any. Amp blows up or it just doesnt' SOUND good? Ship it back. Buy better amps, and the heck with the wife. Good amps will last decades.....and multiple speakers..... |
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Post by DavidR on Jul 1, 2022 20:35:12 GMT -5
The data IS from Stereophile.
Are you saying Emotiva doesn't make good amplifiers?
My AR90s have a very difficult phase angle and my Emo amp laughs at it.
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Post by leonski on Jul 1, 2022 22:50:39 GMT -5
I will repeat that Better watts are better.
That is speaker dependent. Will the EMO amp work well with the Thiel? That's a 'must test' question. To rely on specs can be 'iffy'. Not that anyone would lie!
But sometimes it is not what they say, but what is NOT said that matters.
the 2.8ohm is a THIEL number, while Stereophile measured 2.4ohms. At that low a value, my Personal judgement call is that even a few tenths will matter. If Thiel had said 7.2 minimum and Stereophile measured 6.7? Not even a small deal.
The average is of course higher than the minimum. And apparently within the ratings of the DR3 amp.
Stereophile also found a phase / low impedance 'cog' which while not end-of-the-world worrisome, DOES indicate you need a good, stable amp....
All these measures are no guarantee either way of good OR bad sound....but do tell me I'd like to test before ending my search.
I am personally not a fan of SMPS, but may eventually be convinced. Give me a good Toroid and at a high enough voltage so the Caps store a lot of energy........
If I understand PF (power factor) right....the true power to the speaker is less than the VA (volt amp) rating....multiplied by the CoSine of the phase angle. Sounds like gibberish to me, too!
Just keep in mind that your 100 watts (just to pick a number) will be substantially reduced by phase. And as it turns out? At 90degrees? NO power is delivered. But that is theoretical only.
I have never seen measured data for the AR90. My 'affair' with AR goes back about a decade earlier than the 90, when I lusted after the AR3a but would have settled for the 2aX.......
If you are happy with your current combo? Who the heck would I be to argue? I would suggest a Test before purchase and even a trip to some brick&mortar stores for a listen.....A trip to
a local city with such stores, would not, IMO be a waste of time. Take in a movie while you visit or catch a good meal at an $$$ restaurant. Have some coffee on the balcony!
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Post by novisnick on Jul 2, 2022 0:04:11 GMT -5
I think you ought to just sell me those Thiels and buy yourself some new, easier-to-drive speakers! Don’t you have a few things you’re trying to unload? 🤭 |
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Post by creimes on Jul 2, 2022 0:05:02 GMT -5
Get the DR-2 and call it a day.
Chad
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 2, 2022 6:58:19 GMT -5
I think you ought to just sell me those Thiels and buy yourself some new, easier-to-drive speakers! Don’t you have a few things you’re trying to unload? 🤭 I do - but to get some big Thiels… |
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Post by brutiarti on Jul 2, 2022 8:13:33 GMT -5
I would recommend Audio Alchemy DPA-2. It is the only class D amp that I like so far. I also have the DPA-1 but is less powerful. I drive a pair of 4ohm 84db speakers with the DPA-2 with excellent results. Using an external crossover for dual subs takes some load from the amp.
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Post by DavidR on Jul 2, 2022 9:15:15 GMT -5
@lenoski > a watt is a watt - Volts x Amps
I have no doubt many Emo amps would drive those.
Most of my speakers are difficult to drive.
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Post by leonski on Jul 2, 2022 13:15:11 GMT -5
DavidR/
First? Everybody says 'my speakers are difficult to drive'. Even the HT guys who uses a fairly benign 8 ohm speaker which his HT receiver has no problems with.
AR90? What are they 3-way? 4-way? Like the Thiels, in that it could be a pretty complex crossover. This is Where the weirdness potential comes in.
Do you have access to measured data for them? Not that it matters, but a decade earlier, the AR3a which I lusted after, was OK with most of the early SS gear than
available....
As for 1v @ 1A being 1 watt. Congrats. Not all amps will deliver the same into the same loads. That's why they call 'em 'tough loads'......The math is for me, a little weird,
but as phase angle goes UP, delivered power goes down. Even if into a resistor the amps measure the same. Even your house has a power factor! and factories which
exceed a certain measure CAN get an extra power bill for such usage.
That's all I mean. While the Thiels are fairly sensitive, and I won't go into that, They do have a fair bit of reactance and a fairly low average impedance.
If you are of the opinion that all amps sound alike? We might be able to go much further. But to the extent that different amps / speaker combinations have 'personalitieis'
all their own? TESTING any proposed new amp with whatever speaker is a decent idea. And in the case of EMO? Not costly, if they have a 30 day return deal...
I see by your gear list you are a 'fan' of Carver. I owned the cube many years ago. Decent amp but would sag the house power when pushed to its limits. I have a buddy who
many years ago had the 'amazing' speaker and it was pretty good...
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Post by DavidR on Jul 2, 2022 14:59:31 GMT -5
This would replace my old Denon Amp, which is failing ......  The 800 watts of the DR2 is more power than I have today. But I'm still wondering if the 2xXPA-DR1s are worth the extra 200 watts and $1000??? The trick here might be the power hungry Thiel CS3.7. thanks. I'd give Emotiva a call and have them verify this statement on the DR1 and DR2: Minimum Recommended Load Impedance (per channel): 4 Ohms.
(which equals one 4 Ohm load or two paralleled 8 Ohm loads).
I'd ask point blank if the dip to 2.8 ohms is do-able with the DR1s and DR2. They spend a big range below 4 ohms.
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Post by novisnick on Jul 2, 2022 16:13:50 GMT -5
Just wanted to put my two cents in. Long ago I retired a pair of XPA-1L’s to my wife’s system, actually when I purchased my XPR-1 Monoblocks! 😁 She was happy with her system until I started having trouble with one of them. After a couple of repair attempts I went with the DR-2. Emotiva was very kind in their dealings with me.
The DR-2 has preformed wonderfully and has filled the void of the XPA-1L’s. I’ve never compared the amps side by side but I’m extremely happy and so is Mrs. Novis. More power then my JBL’s could ever dream of but I’m sure that it could drive most any modern speaker.
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Post by davidl81 on Jul 2, 2022 16:36:24 GMT -5
I highly highly doubt you will be able to tell any difference between a DR-2 and two DR-1s. It’s the exact same amp module, the only difference would be each amp having its own power supply. But that power supply is strong enough to run 3 of the DR modules easily.
I have the DR-2 and love it. Great amp, runs super cool, and pushes my Mirage OMD-28s with ease.
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Post by leonski on Jul 2, 2022 21:32:21 GMT -5
If you go this way, and it sounds like you're talking yourself into it......just ONE additional thought.
Keep the amps well ventilated. Not in a box with a fan, but out where air can come in the bottom and heated, exit the top......
Depending on your usage, some parts might get pretty warm....
Don't 'stack' em, either.....
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