Could use some guidance in replacing my McIntosh MC207

[ever43]

Yes, you read that right. For the last 4 months I have been telling myself I should sell that amp because I use our theater for 75/25 music to movies and even that 75 is probably 80% 2 channel. I will admit I was and still are a McIntosh fan boy and when we built our house and theater in 2016, I had a custom rack built into the wall with a glass door and the AV closet on the back side of it. It sounded good of course, but it truly did look better than it sounded. I'll add a pic for y'all to see. 

Anyway, I started to really wonder why I needed a 8000 dollar amp powering speakers (minus center of course) that pretty much puts out ambient sounds (I guess with multichannel music starting to gather traction it will be more important, but no enough source yet IMO) when that money could have been used 5 years ago to make the 2 channel better. So, as a spur of the moment thing, I listed it on Facebook and was sold 6 hours later after 2 guys got into bidding war for it. So now I have 4500 dollars. 

I obviously don't want to use near that to replace those 7 channels. I sold my McIntosh MX122 processor (which was a Marantz 8802 with 5k added to the price for that glass) and got an Anthem AVM 70. The Anthem is miles ahead of the MX122 and I was able to net 1200 from the switch.  So,  I need a good amp to power:

Center: B&W HTM1 D3
Sides: B&W 805 D3
Rears: B&W 805 D3
Front Heights (in ceiling): B&W Cinema 7 
Rear Heights: B&W Cinema 7

The front channels are B&W 802 D3's that are powered by a McIntosh MC452 and a C2700 tube preamp that has pass through mode for surround. 

I will admit, I am not in love with my speakers and that may be what that money saved on these changes go to. I have a deal worked out with a dealer to basically swap my D3 setup for a Focal Sopra 2 setup or swap and cash for Sopra 3 mains and same Sopra replacements. I am also toying around the idea of going down the line on the sides and rears (Focal Aria or B&W 700) and putting  McIntosh MC1.2k monos on the fronts. 

Anyway, I was looking hard at ordering the customizable Gen 3 amp (more power to Center) less to others. Or that Monolith X9.  Do yall think the 7 or 9 channel Gen 3 is a good option or should I go older and save even more money? I really came to this realization when I sold the MX122 and moved our Marantz 6012 AVR from the living room up here temporarily and let it run all the channels ( except the mains) and I was very happy with the way movies sounded. 

[wizardofoz]

beautiful.... but whatever you do don't buy something starting with E

[mgbpuff]

If I were you and I had that set up, I would leave good enough alone!

[AudioHTIT]

Sounds like you have great gear, sorry it’s not to your liking, I don’t think it will be easy to replace.

[brutiarti]

Emotiva has 30-day in home trial. No much too lose

[jbrunwa]

That’s some great equipment. I can see where you are going with potentially downgrading amps and upgrading speakers though. I spend way more on speakers than amps. Also, I agree that 80-90% of the sound plays through the 3 fronts and subs even for movies. Can you articulate what you don’t like about the D3’s? Also, do you have any subwoofers? I have very good fronts (Revel F328Be and C426Be) but my Rythmik FV18 sub really improves the sound in my system even for music.

[simpleman68]

Bang for the buck: Emotiva

Pricier but very musical and smooth enough to tame the B&W tweets: Parasound Halo series

Many, many options but those are the ones that would top my list

I love my Emo amps in the theater but for music I prefer Pass, Parasound, several tube options (but not optimal for theater)

I'm with you on the Anthem processors though. They and Marantz 8805 are tough to beat for their price point.

Also, the other speaker I would consider if I sold the Legacys would be Focal.

Scott

[KeithL]

I have to admit that I've never been a huge fan of McIntosh... (although I did have one of their big tuners - back when I listened to FM - and it was really nice).
I do think some of their amps are really gorgeous, and I do wish we made something with big blue meters...
(Although, to be fair, I sort of preferred some of the big blue meters on some of the older Marantz power amps.)
And McIntosh gear is made like a tank - and will probably last forever...
And they do have great resale value (I bought that tuner used and got back what I paid when I sold it)...

BUT....
With McIntosh you are paying a major premium for all of those things...
And the only thing I'd be willing to pay that much of a premium for would be if they actually sounded noticeably better.
And, to be blunt, I've never honestly felt that McIntosh's amps sounded especially good.
I'm not saying that they sound bad... but merely that I was never especially impressed by how they sound.
They work, they sound OK, and they'll probably run forever.
But, to me, their really iconic early solid state models sounded a bit on the warm side, and weren't especially neutral (yes I see that as a shortcoming)...
And, while their newer models sound just fine, I don't hear anything exceptional about the way they sound.

I've owned power amps by Dynaco, Harman Kardon, Marantz, Hafler, Sunfire, Acurus, and Threshold (and a few others not worth mentioning).
And, before I worked at Emotiva, I had a really nice pair of vintage Aragon 8008 BB's.
And they sounded every bit as good as McIntosh's current models... or maybe even a bit better.
And they cost somewhere around one fourth or one fifth what an equivalent McIntosh amp would have cost.
And, yes, I think our current amps here at Emotiva sound at least as good.
And to me that pretty well sums up the situation.

However I would suggest matching the front three channels...
(That way you get a nice consistent sound stage when things move across the front.)

Aug 1, 2022 21:51:34 GMT -5 ever43 said:

Yes, you read that right. For the last 4 months I have been telling myself I should sell that amp because I use our theater for 75/25 music to movies and even that 75 is probably 80% 2 channel. I will admit I was and still are a McIntosh fan boy and when we built our house and theater in 2016, I had a custom rack built into the wall with a glass door and the AV closet on the back side of it. It sounded good of course, but it truly did look better than it sounded. I'll add a pic for y'all to see. 

Anyway, I started to really wonder why I needed a 8000 dollar amp powering speakers (minus center of course) that pretty much puts out ambient sounds (I guess with multichannel music starting to gather traction it will be more important, but no enough source yet IMO) when that money could have been used 5 years ago to make the 2 channel better. So, as a spur of the moment thing, I listed it on Facebook and was sold 6 hours later after 2 guys got into bidding war for it. So now I have 4500 dollars. 

I obviously don't want to use near that to replace those 7 channels. I sold my McIntosh MX122 processor (which was a Marantz 8802 with 5k added to the price for that glass) and got an Anthem AVM 70. The Anthem is miles ahead of the MX122 and I was able to net 1200 from the switch.  So,  I need a good amp to power:

Center: B&W HTM1 D3
Sides: B&W 805 D3
Rears: B&W 805 D3
Front Heights (in ceiling): B&W Cinema 7 
Rear Heights: B&W Cinema 7

The front channels are B&W 802 D3's that are powered by a McIntosh MC452 and a C2700 tube preamp that has pass through mode for surround. 

I will admit, I am not in love with my speakers and that may be what that money saved on these changes go to. I have a deal worked out with a dealer to basically swap my D3 setup for a Focal Sopra 2 setup or swap and cash for Sopra 3 mains and same Sopra replacements. I am also toying around the idea of going down the line on the sides and rears (Focal Aria or B&W 700) and putting  McIntosh MC1.2k monos on the fronts. 

Anyway, I was looking hard at ordering the customizable Gen 3 amp (more power to Center) less to others. Or that Monolith X9.  Do yall think the 7 or 9 channel Gen 3 is a good option or should I go older and save even more money? I really came to this realization when I sold the MX122 and moved our Marantz 6012 AVR from the living room up here temporarily and let it run all the channels ( except the mains) and I was very happy with the way movies sounded. 

[audiobill]

"I've owned power amps by Dynaco, Harman Kardon, Marantz, Hafler, Sunfire, Acurus, and Threshold (and a few others not worth mentioning)."

And what led you to purchase and dispose of each of these? And were you satisfied with your resale value?

Just asking.....

[KeithL]

To be totally candid...

I have NEVER considered resale value to be a factor when purchasing equipment...

The reason is that, when I buy a piece of gear, I never PLAN on getting rid of it...
I look at the price and how badly I want it...

(If I was already thinking about getting rid of it then I wouldn't be buying it in the first place.)
Then, if I don't like it, or eventually I'm just no longer using it, I have no reason to keep it.
And, at that point, selling it is simply a nuisance, and a matter of getting back whatever I can for it.

Now, since you asked, and as far as I remember...

The Dynaco was my first amp (it was an SCA-80Q)... it was relatively low powered, and had a capacitor coupled output, so rather low damping.
It actually sounded nice with the small speakers I had at the time (I believe Dynaco A-25's... then KLH 17's).
The Harman Kardon was a step up in power and sound quality.
The Marantz sounded a bit better, had a bit more power, and had really nice big blue meters (and a real walnut veneer case).
(Rectilinear Research 5a speakers at that time.)

The Haflers (there were two or three), the Acurus, and the Sunfire were all sort of experiments... and all sounded reasonable with the speakers I had.
The Threshold was curiosity... it had a rather novel circuit... which some insisted sounded noticeably wonderful.
(I had some small KEF speakers, some Vandersteen's, and one Sunfire and several M&K subwoofers during that time period.)
To me the Threshold sounded fine but not especially different than the others.

I eventually ended up with a pair of vintage Vandersteen 4's - which have a very big, very heavy, isobarik woofer, and are very difficult to drive.
The Hafler amps, which I had at the time, didn't seem to have sufficient bass damping to control them properly, although they sounded very nice otherwise.
The Aragon amps were much more powerful, had very good damping, and handled those speakers extremely well.
(The Aragon amps were designed by D'Agostino and so were really "Krell amps without the ridiculous price tag"... they were actually a very simple basic design.)

Unfortunately, after I moved, and they sat in storage for a few years, the Vandersteen 4's eventually failed from age (the surrounds on several of the drivers disintegrated).
And, since I just didn't have space for them, or a room big enough for them to actually work right, I sold them to someone who would restore them properly.

I currently have a pair of our Stealth 8's (two way, powered, bi-amped monitors)...
I really hated selling the Aragon amps - but I had no use for them and they really were getting due for new caps...
So I sold them rather than just having them sit in storage.

If you're really curious...
To the best of my recollection...
The Marantz was purchased new... and I'm sure I took a loss on it.
The Sunfire was purchased new... and I KNOW I took a huge loss on that (it was an expensive unit).
The Hafler and Acurus amps were purchased used, and sold used, and I don't recall the details on those (probably around even).
I believe I broke even on the Threshold...
The Aragon amps were bought and sold used, and I lost money on those, but they were very old when I sold them...
I had also used them for several years and they were sold on condition that they probably would soon need to be re-capped...
(They still worked fine but they were about 30 years old at the time.)

I forgot... there was a Bryston amp in there too...
Bought used... sold it for about what I paid for it...
Built like a brick, sounded fine, but the transformer hummed a bit more than I liked...

There was also a really nice McIntosh MR-77 tuner...
It sounded incredibly good for an FM tuner...
Sadly there weren't any stations worth listening to in my area...
I bought that used, about fifteen years ago, and ended up selling it for about what I paid for it two or three years later.

I was also on "the DAC merry-go-round" for a while.
My conclusion is that there are accurate uncolored DACs ...
And ones that aren't so accurate...
(And, since I like accurate DACs, I don't have to worry about which coloration I like more. which makes life a lot easier...)

Also note that there are a whole bunch of amps that aren't on this list...
Back when I was in high school I used to buy, repair, and sell tube gear...
But, to be fair, none of that was ever "part of my personal system", and I don't recall most of the details...

I went to high school in the 1970's and, back then, tube amps were VERY common.
This was back when solid state was replacing tubes and tube amps often turned up at garage sales for $10 or $20.
(In my high-school electronics class the "fair market value" to buy or sell tube amps was "$1 a watt" - but only if they worked.)

Aug 2, 2022 18:37:34 GMT -5 audiobill said:

"I've owned power amps by Dynaco, Harman Kardon, Marantz, Hafler, Sunfire, Acurus, and Threshold (and a few others not worth mentioning)."

And what led you to purchase and dispose of each of these? And were you satisfied with your resale value?

Just asking.....

[leonski]

How bad a load are the 805D3 speakers? Some B&W can be pretty tough.

88db sensitivity? Is that right? So 100 a side or so is quite enough. And for a B&W? Better watts ARE better.

Any way to go hear stuff? And since NOBODY knows what half the effects in a movie are supposed to sound like?

You get plenty of slack.......

[bluemeanies]

I just purchased the McIntosh MA12000 intergrated amplifier and it is a piece of ART. Inside and out the craftsmanship is to die for. Admittedly right now I am not utilizing most of the bells and whistles on the MA12000 but slow to sure I do intended to jump into the vinyl arena. The MA 12000 is equipped to handle both MC and MM phono stages.
I do consider resale value…I cannot say that was always a precursor for purchase but as I dived into higher end products I realized I got more value for my purchase when it came time for me to move on up a notch. This enabled me to purchase McIntosh.
Looking back I wasted lots of money by purchasing low end ? Inferior products? Whatever label you want to identify your buying habits.

McIntosh…PRIDE IN OWNERSHIP!

[Soup]

Aug 6, 2022 18:25:30 GMT -5 bluemeanies said:

I just purchased the McIntosh MA12000 intergrated amplifier and it is a piece of ART. Inside and out the craftsmanship is to die for. Admittedly right now I am not utilizing most of the bells and whistles on the MA12000 but slow to sure I do intended to jump into the vinyl arena. The MA 12000 is equipped to handle both MC and MM phono stages.
I do consider resale value…I cannot say that was always a precursor for purchase but as I dived into higher end products I realized I got more value for my purchase when it came time for me to move on up a notch. This enabled me to purchase McIntosh.
Looking back I wasted lots of money by purchasing low end ? Inferior products? Whatever label you want to identify your buying habits.

McIntosh…PRIDE IN OWNERSHIP!

Wow it's a beauty!

[novisnick]

Aug 6, 2022 18:25:30 GMT -5 bluemeanies said:

I just purchased the McIntosh MA12000 intergrated amplifier and it is a piece of ART. Inside and out the craftsmanship is to die for. Admittedly right now I am not utilizing most of the bells and whistles on the MA12000 but slow to sure I do intended to jump into the vinyl arena. The MA 12000 is equipped to handle both MC and MM phono stages.
I do consider resale value…I cannot say that was always a precursor for purchase but as I dived into higher end products I realized I got more value for my purchase when it came time for me to move on up a notch. This enabled me to purchase McIntosh.
Looking back I wasted lots of money by purchasing low end ? Inferior products? Whatever label you want to identify your buying habits.

McIntosh…PRIDE IN OWNERSHIP!

So glad you happy with your purchase, I’ve enjoyed my preamp for years now. Will love to welcome you to the world of vinyl with that in your chain. There are a few LPs that are must haves, when your ready for suggestions I’ll be here God willing. 
Great to see you in the lounge

[ever43]

Aug 6, 2022 18:33:01 GMT -5 novisnick said:

Aug 6, 2022 18:25:30 GMT -5 bluemeanies said:

I just purchased the McIntosh MA12000 intergrated amplifier and it is a piece of ART. Inside and out the craftsmanship is to die for. Admittedly right now I am not utilizing most of the bells and whistles on the MA12000 but slow to sure I do intended to jump into the vinyl arena. The MA 12000 is equipped to handle both MC and MM phono stages.
I do consider resale value…I cannot say that was always a precursor for purchase but as I dived into higher end products I realized I got more value for my purchase when it came time for me to move on up a notch. This enabled me to purchase McIntosh.
Looking back I wasted lots of money by purchasing low end ? Inferior products? Whatever label you want to identify your buying habits.

McIntosh…PRIDE IN OWNERSHIP!

So glad you happy with your purchase, I’ve enjoyed my preamp for years now. Will love to welcome you to the world of vinyl with that in your chain. There are a few LPs that are must haves, when your ready for suggestions I’ll be here God willing. 
Great to see you in the lounge

Here's the thing about McIntosh after owning over 35 products . Their breat and butter is their amps and preamps. I LOVE my MC452 and C2700. 

• Their processors are overrated and youpay for trhe name. In 2016, when I dropped 7k on the MXX122, I coud have gotten a MCUH better prepro for that pricel but wanted tat rack
• I do think the 7 channel and 5 channel amsp hae their role, but I don't think it's powering background sound, etc. I w as basically paying 1200 a channel for movies that ogt hae some ambient levels. I would rather use hat in improving the front 3.

Again, what got me here, was when I put our SR7012 on all the channels but the frront 3 and it nt ONLY kept up wit the MS]X122, it sounded better in areas, 

So , I want to add a 7 to 9 channel amp that will simply make movies awesome through the Antem for 1000-2000 dollars used or new.

[novisnick]

ever43 the EMOTIVA products are as of late no where as good looking as the McIntosh but my much more value oriented / does the job well amps do a marvelous job for all my speakers except for the front L/R which are handled by the ever so Beautiful & Powerful XPR-1’s. The center channel should have more power going to it relative to the surrounds, rears and Atmos IMO. You just don’t need all that much power for most speakers except for the three mains across the front for HT.

[bluemeanies]

Aug 6, 2022 18:31:49 GMT -5 Soup said:

Aug 6, 2022 18:25:30 GMT -5 bluemeanies said:

I just purchased the McIntosh MA12000 intergrated amplifier and it is a piece of ART. Inside and out the craftsmanship is to die for. Admittedly right now I am not utilizing most of the bells and whistles on the MA12000 but slow to sure I do intended to jump into the vinyl arena. The MA 12000 is equipped to handle both MC and MM phono stages.
I do consider resale value…I cannot say that was always a precursor for purchase but as I dived into higher end products I realized I got more value for my purchase when it came time for me to move on up a notch. This enabled me to purchase McIntosh.
Looking back I wasted lots of money by purchasing low end ? Inferior products? Whatever label you want to identify your buying habits.

McIntosh…PRIDE IN OWNERSHIP!

Wow it's a beauty!

Thank you SOUP…many years a dream.

[bluemeanies]

Aug 6, 2022 18:33:01 GMT -5 novisnick said:

Aug 6, 2022 18:25:30 GMT -5 bluemeanies said:

I just purchased the McIntosh MA12000 intergrated amplifier and it is a piece of ART. Inside and out the craftsmanship is to die for. Admittedly right now I am not utilizing most of the bells and whistles on the MA12000 but slow to sure I do intended to jump into the vinyl arena. The MA 12000 is equipped to handle both MC and MM phono stages.
I do consider resale value…I cannot say that was always a precursor for purchase but as I dived into higher end products I realized I got more value for my purchase when it came time for me to move on up a notch. This enabled me to purchase McIntosh.
Looking back I wasted lots of money by purchasing low end ? Inferior products? Whatever label you want to identify your buying habits.

McIntosh…PRIDE IN OWNERSHIP!

So glad you happy with your purchase, I’ve enjoyed my preamp for years now. Will love to welcome you to the world of vinyl with that in your chain. There are a few LPs that are must haves, when your ready for suggestions I’ll be here God willing. 
Great to see you in the lounge

Thank you Nick…you are very generous..I love the setup..the McIntosh and the Maggies (.7’s) are a sweet match. Now the low end is no comparison to the B&W803d2’s I have but I listen mostly to Jazz, Blues and classical..that said I am sitting here listening to SUPERTRAMP’s “Even in the Quietest Moment”..👍

[bluemeanies]

Aug 7, 2022 0:41:18 GMT -5 ever43 said:

Aug 6, 2022 18:33:01 GMT -5 novisnick said:

So glad you happy with your purchase, I’ve enjoyed my preamp for years now. Will love to welcome you to the world of vinyl with that in your chain. There are a few LPs that are must haves, when your ready for suggestions I’ll be here God willing. 
Great to see you in the lounge

Here's the thing about McIntosh after owning over 35 products . Their breat and butter is their amps and preamps. I LOVE my MC452 and C2700. 

• Their processors are overrated and youpay for trhe name. In 2016, when I dropped 7k on the MXX122, I coud have gotten a MCUH better prepro for that pricel but wanted tat rack
• I do think the 7 channel and 5 channel amsp hae their role, but I don't think it's powering background sound, etc. I w as basically paying 1200 a channel for movies that ogt hae some ambient levels. I would rather use hat in improving the front 3.

Again, what got me here, was when I put our SR7012 on all the channels but the frront 3 and it nt ONLY kept up wit the MS]X122, it sounded better in areas, 

So , I want to add a 7 to 9 channel amp that will simply make movies awesome through the Antem for 1000-2000 dollars used or new.

You gotta love this never ending merry go round of music!

[novisnick]

Aug 9, 2022 15:18:57 GMT -5 bluemeanies said:

Aug 6, 2022 18:33:01 GMT -5 novisnick said:

So glad you happy with your purchase, I’ve enjoyed my preamp for years now. Will love to welcome you to the world of vinyl with that in your chain. There are a few LPs that are must haves, when your ready for suggestions I’ll be here God willing. 
Great to see you in the lounge

Thank you Nick…you are very generous..I love the setup..the McIntosh and the Maggies (.7’s) are a sweet match. Now the low end is no comparison to the B&W803d2’s I have but I listen mostly to Jazz, Blues and classical..that said I am sitting here listening to SUPERTRAMP’s “Even in the Quietest Moment”..👍

     Sometime you just need to rock out! I het it! I've been listening to a lot of jazz this past year and I’ve found that a sub filling the bottom is important. Even though theres not a lot of low end in most jazz there is that need because that upright bass can bring it at times. Other times there are drums and other instruments that benefit from having just that little bit of sub. 
     Sometimes I’ll listen to an LP and after the first song Ill wonder why it doesn’t sound as good as it usually does. It wont be a huge difference but something is missing. I’ll look down and see that the sub is off.. 😱 It’s like the cherry was missing from the top and that cherry makes such a difference.