KeithL
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Posts: 10,276
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Post by KeithL on Dec 1, 2022 11:42:49 GMT -5
If anybody is interested... here's a pretty comprehensive summary of what Roon is and what it offers: www.headphonesty.com/2021/05/introduction-to-roon/Think you summed it up well with sophisticated media player. That being said it does an amazing job at being just that. I originally got it when Sonos dropped support for my Sonos connect. Roon is a great multi room solution. I saved a good amount of money also because I'm able to use my old Sonos connect (the one Sonos doesn't support as a end point ) also raspberry pi boxes as end points. Roon does a great job of organizing your music library and pulling in album art and extra info. I just have my cds ripped to FLAC files but roon pulled in all the album art etc. It also allows you to listen to your music library on the go now with the arc app. Roon will also recommend other music you may like so it is good for discovering new music. Also works with Tidal and Qobuz so you can listen to those libraries from the same interface as your library. For digital media I always use roon (except tidal atoms tracks which I don't think it supports but don't quote me on this because it could be my endpoint also). I used EAC to get perfect rips of my cd collection. I still listen to physical LPs also but for digital roon is the way to go. So much better not having to look for cds, get up to switch them etc. They do have a free trail and it is super easy to setup. Worth checking out if you have any interest. You can set up the core server on a windows pc or Mac and it is pretty easy to setup. I did buy the lifetime license at the time and glad I did. I also hate extra monthly fees. I do feel like roon was worth the money for lifetime though. I saved the money I spent by not having to buy extra streaming hardware for my other rooms also... With roon you can play PCM and DSD files so no need for special hardware. Bigger problem is ripping SACD but you can buy DSD files from sites like HD tracks. Also the place I go to for hi-res PCM files. Thanks thxultra. Your descriptions of Roon are very helpful. I like the ‘box’, including the minimal setup. Don’t want or need the multi-room or on-the-go cloud service, or the fee. Sometime, the thing more expressible than music is silence. |
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Post by 5channels on Dec 1, 2022 11:46:21 GMT -5
Roon has also just released Roon ARC, which allows you to access your Roon library remotely...similar to JRiver's JRemote, but better.
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Post by Zombie on Dec 1, 2022 11:59:02 GMT -5
I’ve got a pretty extensive SACD collection, I still buy them from Mobile Fidelity when interested titles are released. I’ve copied every one onto my Sony HAP Z1ES Server with zero issues. Never have had an issue doing it. What did you use to rip your SACDs? I would like to rip mine so I can stream them with roon but last time I checked you needed certain hardware to do so. Well, maybe my set-up is a bit unique but basically all I use is an Apple SuperDrive connected to the USB input of my Sony. Actually surprised me that it worked. Through the menu system I just import the CD. It recognizes the CD info and artwork (I’m guessing through Gracenote) and completes the import. While I like to listen to my SACD’s direct with my Marantz 30n, it’s nice to be able to listen to the same CD’s in the garage or on the patio on the Sony through the HEOS app. Works perfectly. |
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Post by thxultra on Dec 1, 2022 12:02:09 GMT -5
What did you use to rip your SACDs? I would like to rip mine so I can stream them with roon but last time I checked you needed certain hardware to do so. Well, maybe my set-up is a bit unique but basically all I use is an Apple SuperDrive connected to the USB input of my Sony. Actually surprised me that it worked. Through the menu system I just import the CD. It recognizes the CD info and artwork (I’m guessing through Gracenote) and completes the import. While I like to listen to my SACD’s direct with my Marantz 30n, it’s nice to be able to listen to the same CD’s in the garage or on the patio on the Sony through the HEOS app. Works perfectly. Is the Sony ripping the SACD layer or CD layer.? Some SACDs have a regular PCM cd layer as well. I know the early ps3's could rip the DSD layer on a SACD. Some computer drives also will do so. |
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Post by Zombie on Dec 1, 2022 12:11:21 GMT -5
Well, maybe my set-up is a bit unique but basically all I use is an Apple SuperDrive connected to the USB input of my Sony. Actually surprised me that it worked. Through the menu system I just import the CD. It recognizes the CD info and artwork (I’m guessing through Gracenote) and completes the import. While I like to listen to my SACD’s direct with my Marantz 30n, it’s nice to be able to listen to the same CD’s in the garage or on the patio on the Sony through the HEOS app. Works perfectly. Is the Sony ripping the SACD layer or CD layer.? Some SACDs have a regular PCM cd layer as well. I know the early ps3's could rip the DSD layer on a SACD. Some computer drives also will do so. Ya know, that’s a good question. I really don’t know. I guess I’ll have to do some research. It’s never differentiated or requested a specific layer to copy. It just does it, lol. |
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Post by PaulBe on Dec 1, 2022 13:35:04 GMT -5
If anybody is interested... here's a pretty comprehensive summary of what Roon is and what it offers: www.headphonesty.com/2021/05/introduction-to-roon/Thanks thxultra. Your descriptions of Roon are very helpful. I like the ‘box’, including the minimal setup. Don’t want or need the multi-room or on-the-go cloud service, or the fee. Sometime, the thing more expressible than music is silence. Thanks for the link Keith. Good article. It explains a lot for me. Roon seems like a good library, retrieval, and distribution piece of software. Its marketing technique is high on the religious cult level, much like Meridian’s other major product, MQA. I didn’t know the connection to Meridian until today. I think Meridian will be much more successful with Roon than with MQA. The price will have to be cut in at least half to 3/4 to interest me. The price should be closer to the level of JRiver. |
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Post by thxultra on Dec 1, 2022 14:03:19 GMT -5
If anybody is interested... here's a pretty comprehensive summary of what Roon is and what it offers: www.headphonesty.com/2021/05/introduction-to-roon/Thanks thxultra. Your descriptions of Roon are very helpful. I like the ‘box’, including the minimal setup. Don’t want or need the multi-room or on-the-go cloud service, or the fee. Sometime, the thing more expressible than music is silence. Keith do you know if the Gen4 processors will have roon support? First page on here says music streaming support so was hoping to use it as a end point. Raspberry pi I have been using with MY XMC-2 has been working great but would be nice to have one less box... |
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Post by thxultra on Dec 1, 2022 14:05:49 GMT -5
Thanks for the link Keith. Good article. It explains a lot for me. Roon seems like a good library, retrieval, and distribution piece of software. Its marketing technique is high on the religious cult level, much like Meridian’s other major product, MQA. I didn’t know the connection to Meridian until today. I think Meridian will be much more successful with Roon than with MQA. The price will have to be cut in at least half to 3/4 to interest me. The price should be closer to the level of JRiver. Wouldn't count on the price going down any time soon. They have a price increase going in on Jan 1st... community.roonlabs.com/t/upcoming-change-to-roon-subscription-prices-january-1st-2023/222476 |
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,276
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Post by KeithL on Dec 1, 2022 14:37:47 GMT -5
You've got the right basics but there's a bit more to it... For one thing there are TWO issues that prevent ripping physical SACD discs to digital files. The first one is that there is a mandatory copy protection requirement that goes with SACD discs which forbids players from delivering full quality digital audio from an SACD disc "via an insecure digital connection". This forbids an SACD player from delivering a full quality digital S/PDIF signal from the converted contents of an SACD via a "non-secure digital output" - like Coax. (HDMI is allowed because HDMI is encrypted - and so counts as a "secure format" - but you cannot get "a digital audio recorder with an HDMI input".) However, the SECOND thing that makes it really difficult to rip SACD DISCS is that the disc player hardware itself is physically slightly different. So the sorts of CD or Blu-Ray drives you get in computers won't physically play SACD discs; and nobody makes a "universal drive" that can play SACD discs and can be installed in a computer. (Any drive can play the Red Book CD layer on a hybrid SACD... but only a real SACD drive can play the DSD layer.) So, in order to rip an SACD disc, you must use an older generation PlayStation, or a universal audio disc player like an Oppo, which has the proper hardware, and THEN hack the firmware so that it can be used to rip SACDs. (There are several ways this can be done... and it's not as bad as it sounds... but all require specific hardware... which must then be modified or use specially hacked software or firmware...) There are two related reasons I can think of why a PCM output from a universal player might sound different. First of all, the conversion between DSD and PCM is not a bit-perfect conversion (there is no exact equivalence between the two). Therefore, even though they are technically capable of equal performance, there is often a tiny difference when converting in either direction. And, while the conversion can be audibly indistinguishable, it may not be, depending on the conversion algorithms used, and a few filtering options that can be chosen during the conversion process. If you take the same DSD file, and convert it to PCM, or the reverse, using two high-quality converters, they may sound equally good, but still a tiny bit different. And, if you're talking about files... While there's no specific reason why a PCM file should "sound harsher"... It's not unlikely that, being "mastered for an audiophile audience", the DSD file version may actually have been mastered to "sound smoother" or to "sound more like vinyl". There's no way to hear what Dirac sounds like "just passing the audio but not correcting it" - because that is simply not an option. Whenever you use Dirac Live the signal is being passed through the digital equivalent of "circuitry with the tone controls set to flat". (And, quite simply, it only makes sense to use Dirac if you WANT it to change the sound - and feel that some correction would be beneficial.) Also, to be quite blunt, many people are used to slightly elevated bass... And, whether that's the reason or not, many also agree that, by default "Dirac seems to tend towards being a bit bass-shy when it aims for flat"... However, you can boost the bass in Dirac simply by creating and using a Target Curve with slightly elevated bass, so THAT is easy enough to correct. A LOT of people seem to like Roon - especially if they enjoy all the "deep content". I also want to point something out here... Many folks have commented on the fact that the Roon Nucleus is somewhat expensive for "just a NUC with Roon installed on it". This is true - but it is also not unreasonable. If you are not comfortable setting up a computer and installing software yourself it is quite expensive to pay someone else to do it for you. And, as is usually the case, it is the software that makes a computer useful, and that must also be installed and configured, and those two collectively often comprise the biggest part of "the cost of owning and operating a computer". (For example, if you get a virus on your computer, it will cost you at least $125 to have the "experts" at Best Buy do the hour's work it will take to remove it, and having them install software for you isn't usually cheap either.) Therefore, paying a few hundred dollars extra, to have a system set up and configured for you, is not really unreasonable. I would also have to agree that I have never been able to hear a significant difference between DSD, DFF, and PCM. While the conversion process, in either direction, sometimes makes a very slight difference in sound, I cannot say that either sounds better to me. (The fact that physical SACD discs are difficult to rip into digital files is a separate concern; but I have never heard a benefit to using DSD of DSF files over PCM files.) (It's also worth noting that, quite often, DSD and PCM versions are mastered somewhat differently; but this difference remains even if you convert the DSD file into 24/96k or 24/192k PCM.) And, yes, DoP is still on the roadmap, although it has turned out to be a bit more difficult than we'd originally thought. Sony tried to use copy protection as a way to sell SACD to record companies which is why they are so hard to rip. You have to have certain hardware that has "bug" that allow you to bypass the copy protection. Really a pain for those of us that have SACD collections that we would like to have on our media servers. To me at least with the SACD player I have when I set it to output PCM it sounds more harsh then when it outputs DSD. Could be a placebo effect also but seems that way to me. Always try to get the least amount on conversions possible though when I listen. I do use DIRAC on my XMC-2 either. To me the XMC-2 sounds better in my room without it. Need to try DIRAC again but to me the bass seemed weak compared to not using it. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 1, 2022 14:50:22 GMT -5
I'd have to agree... I doubt the price is going to go down... and I'm pretty sure it was quite a bit cheaper when it was first introduced. I personally don't like having to subscribe to software... but that is the way things are heading these days. And, to be fair, most people who use Roon use it with at least one streaming service... And I guess you could think of their extra content like a sort of music magazine subscription... So, when you look at it that way, charging the price of a low-cost streaming service for a subscription to Roon itself doesn't seem unreasonable. (And I do like the idea that, unlike virtually all other "music library organizers", it apparently doesn't insist on reorganizing your files themselves.) I personally don't use Roon... but that's because I just plain don't need or care about most of the features it offers. However, if you like that sort of thing, it does seem to cover all the bases pretty well... And it seems to have a pretty good track record. Thanks for the link Keith. Good article. It explains a lot for me. Roon seems like a good library, retrieval, and distribution piece of software. Its marketing technique is high on the religious cult level, much like Meridian’s other major product, MQA. I didn’t know the connection to Meridian until today. I think Meridian will be much more successful with Roon than with MQA. The price will have to be cut in at least half to 3/4 to interest me. The price should be closer to the level of JRiver. Wouldn't count on the price going down any time soon. They have a price increase going in on Jan 1st... community.roonlabs.com/t/upcoming-change-to-roon-subscription-prices-january-1st-2023/222476 |
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Post by PaulBe on Dec 1, 2022 14:56:15 GMT -5
Thanks for the link Keith. Good article. It explains a lot for me. Roon seems like a good library, retrieval, and distribution piece of software. Its marketing technique is high on the religious cult level, much like Meridian’s other major product, MQA. I didn’t know the connection to Meridian until today. I think Meridian will be much more successful with Roon than with MQA. The price will have to be cut in at least half to 3/4 to interest me. The price should be closer to the level of JRiver. Wouldn't count on the price going down any time soon. They have a price increase going in on Jan 1st... community.roonlabs.com/t/upcoming-change-to-roon-subscription-prices-january-1st-2023/222476I get. But, I won't be getting it. I'll use the $830 to buy discs.  The $830 will also pay for my upgrade to G4P. Enjoy Roon. Looks like a marvelous tool. |
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Post by thxultra on Dec 1, 2022 15:17:02 GMT -5
You've got the right basics but there's a bit more to it... For one thing there are TWO issues that prevent ripping physical SACD discs to digital files. The first one is that there is a mandatory copy protection requirement that goes with SACD discs which forbids players from delivering full quality digital audio from an SACD disc "via an insecure digital connection". This forbids an SACD player from delivering a full quality digital S/PDIF signal from the converted contents of an SACD via a "non-secure digital output" - like Coax. (HDMI is allowed because HDMI is encrypted - and so counts as a "secure format" - but you cannot get "a digital audio recorder with an HDMI input".) However, the SECOND thing that makes it really difficult to rip SACD DISCS is that the disc player hardware itself is physically slightly different. So the sorts of CD or Blu-Ray drives you get in computers won't physically play SACD discs; and nobody makes a "universal drive" that can play SACD discs and can be installed in a computer. (Any drive can play the Red Book CD layer on a hybrid SACD... but only a real SACD drive can play the DSD layer.) So, in order to rip an SACD disc, you must use an older generation PlayStation, or a universal audio disc player like an Oppo, which has the proper hardware, and THEN hack the firmware so that it can be used to rip SACDs. (There are several ways this can be done... and it's not as bad as it sounds... but all require specific hardware... which must then be modified or use specially hacked software or firmware...) There are two related reasons I can think of why a PCM output from a universal player might sound different. First of all, the conversion between DSD and PCM is not a bit-perfect conversion (there is no exact equivalence between the two). Therefore, even though they are technically capable of equal performance, there is often a tiny difference when converting in either direction. And, while the conversion can be audibly indistinguishable, it may not be, depending on the conversion algorithms used, and a few filtering options that can be chosen during the conversion process. If you take the same DSD file, and convert it to PCM, or the reverse, using two high-quality converters, they may sound equally good, but still a tiny bit different. And, if you're talking about files... While there's no specific reason why a PCM file should "sound harsher"... It's not unlikely that, being "mastered for an audiophile audience", the DSD file version may actually have been mastered to "sound smoother" or to "sound more like vinyl". There's no way to hear what Dirac sounds like "just passing the audio but not correcting it" - because that is simply not an option. Whenever you use Dirac Live the signal is being passed through the digital equivalent of "circuitry with the tone controls set to flat". (And, quite simply, it only makes sense to use Dirac if you WANT it to change the sound - and feel that some correction would be beneficial.) Also, to be quite blunt, many people are used to slightly elevated bass... And, whether that's the reason or not, many also agree that, by default "Dirac seems to tend towards being a bit bass-shy when it aims for flat"... However, you can boost the bass in Dirac simply by creating and using a Target Curve with slightly elevated bass, so THAT is easy enough to correct. Sony tried to use copy protection as a way to sell SACD to record companies which is why they are so hard to rip. You have to have certain hardware that has "bug" that allow you to bypass the copy protection. Really a pain for those of us that have SACD collections that we would like to have on our media servers. To me at least with the SACD player I have when I set it to output PCM it sounds more harsh then when it outputs DSD. Could be a placebo effect also but seems that way to me. Always try to get the least amount on conversions possible though when I listen. I do use DIRAC on my XMC-2 either. To me the XMC-2 sounds better in my room without it. Need to try DIRAC again but to me the bass seemed weak compared to not using it. Thanks for the explanation, now that you brought it up I remember there was something different in the hardware for SACD also. On the topic of harshness, I do think it is something with the conversion on the player that is making the PCM output sound harsher then the DSD output. In both cases I'm using the DSD layer of the disc one option I'm outputting DSD and the other I'm having the SACD player convert the DSD signal to PCM. It is converting to 24bit 170something so a hi-res PCM format. Like you said though all other things aside (great recording) I don't know that I can even hear a difference between hi-res PCM and dsd or between 24bit 48khz and anything else higher res. I have heard some amazing recordings on CD (16bit 44khz). I also don't think Vynl as a format sounds as good as cd quality or above digital. I have a nice record collection and like to listen to them. For the most part I still think when the LP sounds better it is the recording and not the format. I do admit to like my bass more elevated. One thing I really liked with the xmc-2 vs my old Marantz was the bass response is night and day better. Find the XMC-2 sounds great flat with my system. Have to try DIRAC again though since I only tried it once and didn't take the time to really dial it in. |
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Post by PaulBe on Dec 1, 2022 15:52:39 GMT -5
You've got the right basics but there's a bit more to it... For one thing there are TWO issues that prevent ripping physical SACD discs to digital files. The first one is that there is a mandatory copy protection requirement that goes with SACD discs which forbids players from delivering full quality digital audio from an SACD disc "via an insecure digital connection". This forbids an SACD player from delivering a full quality digital S/PDIF signal from the converted contents of an SACD via a "non-secure digital output" - like Coax. (HDMI is allowed because HDMI is encrypted - and so counts as a "secure format" - but you cannot get "a digital audio recorder with an HDMI input".) However, the SECOND thing that makes it really difficult to rip SACD DISCS is that the disc player hardware itself is physically slightly different. So the sorts of CD or Blu-Ray drives you get in computers won't physically play SACD discs; and nobody makes a "universal drive" that can play SACD discs and can be installed in a computer. (Any drive can play the Red Book CD layer on a hybrid SACD... but only a real SACD drive can play the DSD layer.) So, in order to rip an SACD disc, you must use an older generation PlayStation, or a universal audio disc player like an Oppo, which has the proper hardware, and THEN hack the firmware so that it can be used to rip SACDs. (There are several ways this can be done... and it's not as bad as it sounds... but all require specific hardware... which must then be modified or use specially hacked software or firmware...) There are two related reasons I can think of why a PCM output from a universal player might sound different. First of all, the conversion between DSD and PCM is not a bit-perfect conversion (there is no exact equivalence between the two). Therefore, even though they are technically capable of equal performance, there is often a tiny difference when converting in either direction. And, while the conversion can be audibly indistinguishable, it may not be, depending on the conversion algorithms used, and a few filtering options that can be chosen during the conversion process. If you take the same DSD file, and convert it to PCM, or the reverse, using two high-quality converters, they may sound equally good, but still a tiny bit different. And, if you're talking about files... While there's no specific reason why a PCM file should "sound harsher"... It's not unlikely that, being "mastered for an audiophile audience", the DSD file version may actually have been mastered to "sound smoother" or to "sound more like vinyl". There's no way to hear what Dirac sounds like "just passing the audio but not correcting it" - because that is simply not an option. Whenever you use Dirac Live the signal is being passed through the digital equivalent of "circuitry with the tone controls set to flat". (And, quite simply, it only makes sense to use Dirac if you WANT it to change the sound - and feel that some correction would be beneficial.) Also, to be quite blunt, many people are used to slightly elevated bass... And, whether that's the reason or not, many also agree that, by default "Dirac seems to tend towards being a bit bass-shy when it aims for flat"... However, you can boost the bass in Dirac simply by creating and using a Target Curve with slightly elevated bass, so THAT is easy enough to correct. Thanks for the explanation, now that you brought it up I remember there was something different in the hardware for SACD also. On the topic of harshness, I do think it is something with the conversion on the player that is making the PCM output sound harsher then the DSD output. In both cases I'm using the DSD layer of the disc one option I'm outputting DSD and the other I'm having the SACD player convert the DSD signal to PCM. It is converting to 24bit 170something so a hi-res PCM format. Like you said though all other things aside (great recording) I don't know that I can even hear a difference between hi-res PCM and dsd or between 24bit 48khz and anything else higher res. I have heard some amazing recordings on CD (16bit 44khz). I also don't think Vynl as a format sounds as good as cd quality or above digital. I have a nice record collection and like to listen to them. For the most part I still think when the LP sounds better it is the recording and not the format. I do admit to like my bass more elevated. One thing I really liked with the xmc-2 vs my old Marantz was the bass response is night and day better. Find the XMC-2 sounds great flat with my system. Have to try DIRAC again though since I only tried it once and didn't take the time to really dial it in. LSO recordings are available in Pure Audio Blu-ray. The sets come complete with the Blu-ray, SACDs, and various downloadable formats. I have 6 of the LSO recordings. I played some of the SACDs but don't recall any significant difference in sound from the Blu-rays. lsolive.lso.co.uk/collections/pure-audio-blu-raypureaudiorecordings.com/en/products/label/lso-live/I don't use Dirac. After setting levels with the RMC internal pink noise, I have to lower the Subs -6dB to perceptually match the recording. I lower the Surrounds and Heights too - the amount depends on the channel count of the recording, and the individual recording; usually -2db to -5db. |
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richb
Sensei
Oppo Beta Group - Audioholics Reviewer
Posts: 890
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Post by richb on Dec 1, 2022 16:12:02 GMT -5
I get. But, I won't be getting it. I'll use the $830 to buy discs. The $830 will also pay for my upgrade to G4P. Enjoy Roon. Looks like a marvelous tool. I bought Roon Lifetime when it was $500 and I am glad I did. Previously I used J River, that was never stable for me, for some reason. - Rich |
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,276
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Post by KeithL on Dec 1, 2022 16:19:50 GMT -5
I'm quite sure that most of the major differences with modern recordings are due to the mastering. It's also a known thing that, on some hybrid SACDs, the Red Book CD audio track is mastered differently than the DSD tracks. (The real benefit of SACD for consumers was the fact that they could deliver surround sound - which CDs could not - before things like Blu-Ray audio were available.) I've also heard quite a few CDs that sound every bit as good as a good quality high-res recording... which makes one wonder why so many CD don't sound all that good... or good at all. And, back in the days of vinyl recording, even with recordings that were not "direct-to-disc", there was a limited amount of processing that you could do without making an obvious mess out of the sound. And, just maybe, a lot of the time, that limitation was a good thing. Now, with modern digital audio editing, there is an endless list of processing options, and many mixing engineers seem determined to go down that list one item at a sound. And while, individually, each tweak may seem to be an improvement, collectively you CAN end up with something that sounds heavily processed. (Of course really good modern digital recordings do manage to sound very good.) It's also worth noting that one supposed problem was one of the few real benefits of at least many early DSD recordings... DSD is almost impossible to digitally edit or process (only one or two mastering programs can actually do more than very basic editing and mixing in DSD even today)... This means that, until recently, they had to either mix and edit in analog, and then do the equivalent of a direct-to-disc DSD track... Or convert the DSD recording to PCM, do their editing and mixing, then convert it back to DSD to put it on an SACD... (And, of course, some SACDs were actually mastered in PCM, or even analog, and then simply converted to DSD afterwards. Of course, these days, with plenty of bandwidth available to use 24/96k or 24/192k PCM, there is no longer a real need for DSD as a file format... (But it has recently achieved a sort of cult following as "an audiophile format".) Thanks for the explanation, now that you brought it up I remember there was something different in the hardware for SACD also. On the topic of harshness, I do think it is something with the conversion on the player that is making the PCM output sound harsher then the DSD output. In both cases I'm using the DSD layer of the disc one option I'm outputting DSD and the other I'm having the SACD player convert the DSD signal to PCM. It is converting to 24bit 170something so a hi-res PCM format. Like you said though all other things aside (great recording) I don't know that I can even hear a difference between hi-res PCM and dsd or between 24bit 48khz and anything else higher res. I have heard some amazing recordings on CD (16bit 44khz). I also don't think Vynl as a format sounds as good as cd quality or above digital. I have a nice record collection and like to listen to them. For the most part I still think when the LP sounds better it is the recording and not the format. I do admit to like my bass more elevated. One thing I really liked with the xmc-2 vs my old Marantz was the bass response is night and day better. Find the XMC-2 sounds great flat with my system. Have to try DIRAC again though since I only tried it once and didn't take the time to really dial it in. |
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Post by thxultra on Dec 1, 2022 16:25:51 GMT -5
Thanks for the explanation, now that you brought it up I remember there was something different in the hardware for SACD also. On the topic of harshness, I do think it is something with the conversion on the player that is making the PCM output sound harsher then the DSD output. In both cases I'm using the DSD layer of the disc one option I'm outputting DSD and the other I'm having the SACD player convert the DSD signal to PCM. It is converting to 24bit 170something so a hi-res PCM format. Like you said though all other things aside (great recording) I don't know that I can even hear a difference between hi-res PCM and dsd or between 24bit 48khz and anything else higher res. I have heard some amazing recordings on CD (16bit 44khz). I also don't think Vynl as a format sounds as good as cd quality or above digital. I have a nice record collection and like to listen to them. For the most part I still think when the LP sounds better it is the recording and not the format. I do admit to like my bass more elevated. One thing I really liked with the xmc-2 vs my old Marantz was the bass response is night and day better. Find the XMC-2 sounds great flat with my system. Have to try DIRAC again though since I only tried it once and didn't take the time to really dial it in. LSO recordings are available in Pure Audio Blu-ray. The sets come complete with the Blu-ray, SACDs, and various downloadable formats. I have 6 of the LSO recordings. I played some of the SACDs but don't recall any significant difference in sound from the Blu-rays. lsolive.lso.co.uk/collections/pure-audio-blu-raypureaudiorecordings.com/en/products/label/lso-live/I don't use Dirac. After setting levels with the RMC internal pink noise, I have to lower the Subs -6dB to perceptually match the recording. I lower the Surrounds and Heights too - the amount depends on the channel count of the recording, and the individual recording; usually -2db to -5db. Glad to hear I'm not the only one not running DIRAC. I used the pink noise generator and my trusty old radio shack meter to set my levels. I have all my levels set at 75 db if I remember. Think I used the medium test tone... Measured all my distances. Should really try DIRAC again but the one time I used it I liked the sound better without it. It is a complex room correction system thoughts o sure I did some things wrong and there are things it does I should be using. Heard a lot about target curves but honestly don't know how to properly set all that... |
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Post by PaulBe on Dec 1, 2022 16:26:03 GMT -5
I get. But, I won't be getting it. I'll use the $830 to buy discs. The $830 will also pay for my upgrade to G4P. Enjoy Roon. Looks like a marvelous tool. I bought Roon Lifetime when it was $500 and I am glad I did. Previously I used J River, that was never stable for me, for some reason. - Rich Roon looks like a very good tool. I don't make good use of the library tools I have now; WM Groove, and JRiver ver21. JRiver is up to ver30 now and I haven't yet cared to upgrade. Now that I know more about Roon, I will keep an eye on it. It will take a lot for me to move from intellectual curiosity to buyer. |
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richb
Sensei
Oppo Beta Group - Audioholics Reviewer
Posts: 890
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Post by richb on Dec 1, 2022 16:34:03 GMT -5
I bought Roon Lifetime when it was $500 and I am glad I did. Previously I used J River, that was never stable for me, for some reason. - Rich Roon looks like a very good tool. I don't make good use of the library tools I have now; WM Groove, and JRiver ver21. JRiver is up to ver30 now and I haven't yet cared to upgrade. Now that I know more about Roon, I will keep an eye on it. Roon benefits from a good architecture. The Roon server has no UI with well designed mobile clients and a web client. J River began as a complete application with features continually added. As such, I find it useable only from the mobile app. I use Roon that organizes my ripped library and Qobuz. - Rich |
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Post by audiosyndrome on Dec 1, 2022 17:14:07 GMT -5
Well, maybe my set-up is a bit unique but basically all I use is an Apple SuperDrive connected to the USB input of my Sony. Actually surprised me that it worked. Through the menu system I just import the CD. It recognizes the CD info and artwork (I’m guessing through Gracenote) and completes the import. While I like to listen to my SACD’s direct with my Marantz 30n, it’s nice to be able to listen to the same CD’s in the garage or on the patio on the Sony through the HEOS app. Works perfectly. Is the Sony ripping the SACD layer or CD layer.? Some SACDs have a regular PCM cd layer as well. I know the early ps3's could rip the DSD layer on a SACD. Some computer drives also will do so. The CD layer. Only some (older) Oppos (my 103) and Panasonics plus some very old PS3s that haven’t had their firmware updated beyond a certain point are able to rip the SACD layer. I’ve ripped the CD layer of my SACDs to my roon library. I’d like to rip the multichannel layer of the SACDs (100+) but haven’t gotten around to it yet. 😳 Russ |
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Post by msimanyi on Dec 1, 2022 21:18:58 GMT -5
I would also have to agree that I have never been able to hear a significant difference between DSD, DFF, and PCM. This could be due to any number of factors from one's own hearing to system hardware or even the room interactions with the speakers (in other words: room treatment as well as speaker setup.) I'm using a Grimm MU-1 as my Roon core and endpoint, as well as my streamer. I'm "temporarily" using a Wyred4Sound 10th Anniversary DAC. The Grimm will process up to DSD256, if I recall correctly, but it converts all DSD to PCM. Output from the MU-1 to the W4S DAC is AES. The DAC feeds to my RMC-1, and that outputs to an assortment of amps. Currently my main L/R amps are PS Audio M1200s. Interconnects and speaker wires are Iconoclast, while power cords are primarily Shunyata, with one incredible Elite power cord in the mix as well. L/R speakers are Martin Logan 15As. ALL of this combined - and kudos to the RMC-1 here - lets me easily hear the difference between various levels of PCM and DSD. I strongly prefer DSD128 and 256 where I've purchased multiple versions. (And one really cool service is (link:) High Def Tape Transfer, where you get all versions if you buy the highest res.) Edited to add: I use Dirac up to 500Hz for home theater, but I use Reference Stereo for two channel playback.
Edited again to add (and keep on topic): I certainly hope the G4P family will not be inferior to the G3P family's sonic capabilities. If we can find reviews proving that, I'm 100% planning to upgrade to an RMC-1+. |
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