Looking for some upgrade advice

[drumace]

Hey guys,
I’m considering adding a dac to my audio system to replace the internal dac in my Marantz AV8801. I don’t need anything above 24bit/192k because I use Apple Music which doesn’t support higher resolution anymore. I also don’t need a streamer function because I was planning to use my MacBook Pro for that (hooked to the dac using USB B). Also don’t need any fancy wireless connections because I’m all hard wired. What I need is a pure conversation quality that will be superior to what I can get from the one in my pre-pro.
The rest of the system consists of T2+, XPA-1Ls and my room is well treated and dead silent.
I was thinking about something like the DC-1 or something similar and I’m also considering switching to a higher end pre-pro (AV8802, XMA-1) instead (in case the internal dacs would be superior to the AV8801 or even the DC-1).
Was also considering the Marantz ND8006 but it’s a bit expensive and I don’t really need many of its features.

Any suggestions which way would be best and cost effective?

Thanks

[cawgijoe]

Dec 1, 2022 22:42:59 GMT -5 drumace said:

Hey guys,
I’m considering adding a dac to my audio system to replace the internal dac in my Marantz AV8801. I don’t need anything above 24bit/192k because I use Apple Music which doesn’t support higher resolution anymore. I also don’t need a streamer function because I was planning to use my MacBook Pro for that (hooked to the dac using USB B). Also don’t need any fancy wireless connections because I’m all hard wired. What I need is a pure conversation quality that will be superior to what I can get from the one in my pre-pro.
The rest of the system consists of T2+, XPA-1Ls and my room is well treated and dead silent.
I was thinking about something like the DC-1 or something similar and I’m also considering switching to a higher end pre-pro (AV8802, XMA-1) instead (in case the internal dacs would be superior to the AV8801 or even the DC-1).
Was also considering the Marantz ND8006 but it’s a bit expensive and I don’t really need many of its features.

Any suggestions which way would be best and cost effective?

Thanks

There are alot of dacs out there....for affordability, take a look at Schiit.....also look at the Denafrips Ares II....I bought one off a friend and it's excellent. He moved up the line. I believe it's a Stereophile Class B component, for what that is worth.

I'm sure you will get other suggestions.

[KeithL]

You REALLY need to think about your signal path here...

Do you use room correction, or equalization, or ANY feature on your AVR that requires digital processing?
Assuming that's the case then, right now, the digital audio from your computer is going into a digital input on the AVR...
From there it goes through the various stages of digital processing on the AVR...
Then, on the way out, it is going through the DACs on the AVR, to be converted back into analog audio to be sent to the amps in the AVR...

NOW let's assume that you add a separate DAC, connected to the computer, with its analog output connected to an analog input on the AVR.
Now, the digital audio from your computer goes to your new external DAC, which converts it into analog.
Then it goes from the DAC to an analog input on your AVR.
But, when it gets there, it's converted back into digital by the A/D (analog-to-digital converter) at the input of the AVR.
Now, as before, it goes through the various stages of digital processing on the AVR...
And, as before, on the way out, it is converted back into analog audio by the DACs in the AVR to be sent to the amps in the AVR...

Note that you have NOT avoided having that audio go through the DACs in the AVR...
You've just added two extra steps: your new external DAC and the A/D converters at the input of the AVR.
The only way to bypass the DACs in the AVR would be if your AVR has a true "direct mode" of some sort that bypasses ALL of the internal digital processing in the AVR.
(And it must be a TRUE direct mode... which means that you sacrifice the ability for the AVR to do anything much beyond select the input and control the Volume.)
Unless your AVR or processor has such a direct mode, and you're willing to use it, and sacrifice those other control options, then you are NOT bypassing the internal DACs in the AVR.
So they are still the limiting factor and, at best, your external DAC can avoid adding extra coloration...
(And, while some processors, including ours, offer this option, very few AVRs offer a true "analog direct option".)

To be quite blunt...
If the purest signal path is your goal...
Your ideal solution (using the components you mentioned)...
Would be to connect the computer to the DAC, connect the DAC to an AMPLIFIER, and skip the AVR altogether. 
(All of the other features an AVR offers, like room correction, and EQ, and surround decoding, are basically going to require that the signal goes through the DACs in the AVR.)
(And, looking at it the other way, in order to avoid the DACs in your AVR, all your AVR is going to be able to do, other than provide amplification, is to select the input and control the Volume.)

Now, if you're looking for a system that does BOTH "high quality two channel" AND surround sound for movies, then the story is a bit different.
If that's your goal then you could benefit from an external DAC.
But, in order to do that, you would need to select a processor or AVR that offers some sort of true direct mode.
You could then use it in "pure analog mode" when listening to stereo music via your external DAC...
And use its internal DACs for less critical surround sound listening where you need the decoding and room correction capabilities it offers...
However, at that point, it would probably be easier to step up to a processor or AVR that has good DACs of its own.
(Our processors offer this... but I don't know of any AVRs that do.)

The bottom line is that, with a simple AVR, adding a separate DAC between the computer and the AVR is NOT likely to gain you much.
(Unless, specifically, you are just looking to add some pleasant coloration to the audio coming from the computer, and you find an external DAC that does so.)

Dec 2, 2022 7:50:54 GMT -5 cawgijoe said:

Dec 1, 2022 22:42:59 GMT -5 drumace said:

Hey guys,
I’m considering adding a dac to my audio system to replace the internal dac in my Marantz AV8801. I don’t need anything above 24bit/192k because I use Apple Music which doesn’t support higher resolution anymore. I also don’t need a streamer function because I was planning to use my MacBook Pro for that (hooked to the dac using USB B). Also don’t need any fancy wireless connections because I’m all hard wired. What I need is a pure conversation quality that will be superior to what I can get from the one in my pre-pro.
The rest of the system consists of T2+, XPA-1Ls and my room is well treated and dead silent.
I was thinking about something like the DC-1 or something similar and I’m also considering switching to a higher end pre-pro (AV8802, XMA-1) instead (in case the internal dacs would be superior to the AV8801 or even the DC-1).
Was also considering the Marantz ND8006 but it’s a bit expensive and I don’t really need many of its features.

Any suggestions which way would be best and cost effective?

Thanks

There are alot of dacs out there....for affordability, take a look at Schiit.....also look at the Denafrips Ares II....I bought one off a friend and it's excellent. He moved up the line. I believe it's a Stereophile Class B component, for what that is worth.

I'm sure you will get other suggestions.

[cawgijoe]

Dec 2, 2022 10:38:12 GMT -5 KeithL said:

You REALLY need to think about your signal path here...

Do you use room correction, or equalization, or ANY feature on your AVR that requires digital processing?
Assuming that's the case then, right now, the digital audio from your computer is going into a digital input on the AVR...
From there it goes through the various stages of digital processing on the AVR...
Then, on the way out, it is going through the DACs on the AVR, to be converted back into analog audio to be sent to the amps in the AVR...

NOW let's assume that you add a separate DAC, connected to the computer, with its analog output connected to an analog input on the AVR.
Now, the digital audio from your computer goes to your new external DAC, which converts it into analog.
Then it goes from the DAC to an analog input on your AVR.
But, when it gets there, it's converted back into digital by the A/D (analog-to-digital converter) at the input of the AVR.
Now, as before, it goes through the various stages of digital processing on the AVR...
And, as before, on the way out, it is converted back into analog audio by the DACs in the AVR to be sent to the amps in the AVR...

Note that you have NOT avoided having that audio go through the DACs in the AVR...
You've just added two extra steps: your new external DAC and the A/D converters at the input of the AVR.
The only way to bypass the DACs in the AVR would be if your AVR has a true "direct mode" of some sort that bypasses ALL of the internal digital processing in the AVR.
(And it must be a TRUE direct mode... which means that you sacrifice the ability for the AVR to do anything much beyond select the input and control the Volume.)
Unless your AVR or processor has such a direct mode, and you're willing to use it, and sacrifice those other control options, then you are NOT bypassing the internal DACs in the AVR.
So they are still the limiting factor and, at best, your external DAC can avoid adding extra coloration...
(And, while some processors, including ours, offer this option, very few AVRs offer a true "analog direct option".)

To be quite blunt...
If the purest signal path is your goal...
Your ideal solution (using the components you mentioned)...
Would be to connect the computer to the DAC, connect the DAC to an AMPLIFIER, and skip the AVR altogether. 
(All of the other features an AVR offers, like room correction, and EQ, and surround decoding, are basically going to require that the signal goes through the DACs in the AVR.)
(And, looking at it the other way, in order to avoid the DACs in your AVR, all your AVR is going to be able to do, other than provide amplification, is to select the input and control the Volume.)

Now, if you're looking for a system that does BOTH "high quality two channel" AND surround sound for movies, then the story is a bit different.
If that's your goal then you could benefit from an external DAC.
But, in order to do that, you would need to select a processor or AVR that offers some sort of true direct mode.
You could then use it in "pure analog mode" when listening to stereo music via your external DAC...
And use its internal DACs for less critical surround sound listening where you need the decoding and room correction capabilities it offers...
However, at that point, it would probably be easier to step up to a processor or AVR that has good DACs of its own.
(Our processors offer this... but I don't know of any AVRs that do.)

The bottom line is that, with a simple AVR, adding a separate DAC between the computer and the AVR is NOT likely to gain you much.
(Unless, specifically, you are just looking to add some pleasant coloration to the audio coming from the computer, and you find an external DAC that does so.)

Dec 2, 2022 7:50:54 GMT -5 cawgijoe said:

There are alot of dacs out there....for affordability, take a look at Schiit.....also look at the Denafrips Ares II....I bought one off a friend and it's excellent. He moved up the line. I believe it's a Stereophile Class B component, for what that is worth.

I'm sure you will get other suggestions.

What would be the best connection-path and setting when using an outboard DAC with an Emotiva processor? Assuming you are using either RCA or XLR in/out on the DAC.

[KeithL]

Dec 2, 2022 10:45:47 GMT -5 cawgijoe said:

Dec 2, 2022 10:38:12 GMT -5 KeithL said:

-----------------

What would be the best connection-path and setting when using an outboard DAC with an Emotiva processor? Assuming you are using either RCA or XLR in/out on the DAC.

The connection part is simple... just connect the outputs of the DAC to a pair of stereo analog inputs on the processor.
Assuming you have both XLR and RCA available on both ends the XLR connection is arguably better.
(In general it doesn't matter - but, on some few products like some DACs, the two may sound a tiny bit different due to differences in circuitry).

If you want to avoid going through the DACs on the processor you will then need to choose Reference Stereo mode (on our big processors) or "Direct" mode on the MC1.
The thing to remember with any processor, including ours, is that all processing, like decoding, room correction, and manual equalization, is done digitally.
Therefore, if you want to use those options, or even if they are available in a given mode, then you are not using a purely analog signal path.

(The only exceptions are the Volume Control and Level Trims - which are digitally controlled but are actually done in the analog domain on our big processors.) 

Therefore, when you choose a purely analog signal path through the processor, you will NOT have access to those options.
(And, if you have an analog input signal, and you want processing, then it will have to be converted to digital.)
(Of course, with a digital input signal, you cannot avoid the DACs in the processor, since our output is analog.)

A lot of people actually go this route...
Use an external DAC for stereo content, in Reference Stereo mode, and use a regular surround mode for movies and other surround content.
However, to be fair, the DACs in our RMC-1 and XMC-2 are actually as good as most external DACs anyway...
And so a lot of people simply use the digital inputs on the processor.
(And, to be quite blunt, while some external DACs are very good, many are not, and some simply add a bit of euphonic coloration that appeals to some listeners.)

(So, although some people like the sound of a particular external DAC, many external DACs actually are not an upgrade over the DACs in our processors.)

Note that some of our two-channel products, like the PT1 and PT2, do have analog tone controls...
But nobody implements room correction, speaker distance delays, or parametric EQs in the analog domain these days.

[KeithL]

It didn't really occur to me... but... you didn't say how many channels you have or use.
if you only have two speakers, and listen in stereo, and really don't want any processing, then you can just get a DAC with a volume control, and skip the AVR altogether. 

Dec 1, 2022 22:42:59 GMT -5 drumace said:

Hey guys,
I’m considering adding a dac to my audio system to replace the internal dac in my Marantz AV8801. I don’t need anything above 24bit/192k because I use Apple Music which doesn’t support higher resolution anymore. I also don’t need a streamer function because I was planning to use my MacBook Pro for that (hooked to the dac using USB B). Also don’t need any fancy wireless connections because I’m all hard wired. What I need is a pure conversation quality that will be superior to what I can get from the one in my pre-pro.
The rest of the system consists of T2+, XPA-1Ls and my room is well treated and dead silent.
I was thinking about something like the DC-1 or something similar and I’m also considering switching to a higher end pre-pro (AV8802, XMA-1) instead (in case the internal dacs would be superior to the AV8801 or even the DC-1).
Was also considering the Marantz ND8006 but it’s a bit expensive and I don’t really need many of its features.

Any suggestions which way would be best and cost effective?

Thanks

[garbulky]

Dec 1, 2022 22:42:59 GMT -5 drumace said:

Hey guys,
I’m considering adding a dac to my audio system to replace the internal dac in my Marantz AV8801. I don’t need anything above 24bit/192k because I use Apple Music which doesn’t support higher resolution anymore. I also don’t need a streamer function because I was planning to use my MacBook Pro for that (hooked to the dac using USB B). Also don’t need any fancy wireless connections because I’m all hard wired. What I need is a pure conversation quality that will be superior to what I can get from the one in my pre-pro.
The rest of the system consists of T2+, XPA-1Ls and my room is well treated and dead silent.
I was thinking about something like the DC-1 or something similar and I’m also considering switching to a higher end pre-pro (AV8802, XMA-1) instead (in case the internal dacs would be superior to the AV8801 or even the DC-1).
Was also considering the Marantz ND8006 but it’s a bit expensive and I don’t really need many of its features.

Any suggestions which way would be best and cost effective?

Thanks

Unless your marantz is not upto date on your requirements - I think your best improvements are buying more than one subwoofer. Or perhaps investing in a nice set of bluetooth earbuds or wired headphones for alternative listening. I LOVE my DC-1 but unless your receiver doesn't digitize the analog signal (most do) it is pointless.

[drumace]

Dec 2, 2022 12:28:43 GMT -5 KeithL said:

It didn't really occur to me... but... you didn't say how many channels you have or use.
if you only have two speakers, and listen in stereo, and really don't want any processing, then you can just get a DAC with a volume control, and skip the AVR altogether. 

Dec 1, 2022 22:42:59 GMT -5 drumace said:

Hey guys,
I’m considering adding a dac to my audio system to replace the internal dac in my Marantz AV8801. I don’t need anything above 24bit/192k because I use Apple Music which doesn’t support higher resolution anymore. I also don’t need a streamer function because I was planning to use my MacBook Pro for that (hooked to the dac using USB B). Also don’t need any fancy wireless connections because I’m all hard wired. What I need is a pure conversation quality that will be superior to what I can get from the one in my pre-pro.
The rest of the system consists of T2+, XPA-1Ls and my room is well treated and dead silent.
I was thinking about something like the DC-1 or something similar and I’m also considering switching to a higher end pre-pro (AV8802, XMA-1) instead (in case the internal dacs would be superior to the AV8801 or even the DC-1).
Was also considering the Marantz ND8006 but it’s a bit expensive and I don’t really need many of its features.

Any suggestions which way would be best and cost effective?

Thanks

I have a 7.1 speaker system (all Emotiva excluding the sub).
I do use the DEQ in my AV8801, otherwise the sound is too lifeless.
You’ve made an important point about the use of double-dac in the signal path (though some people claim this can actually improve SQ, not one of those anyway).
Replacing the pre-pro with a newer one (assuming the SQ is better, which is not always the case) is a major financial hit for me (even the XMC-2), which is why I was thinking about an older model (but still newer than my 10 y/o pre-pro). I was also considering a pure stereo preamp with HT bypass (like the XSP-1 which unfortunately is not produced anymore) and then connect the external dac to it and keep only one dac in the signal path).
The problem with the latter approach is that I don’t know how the system would sound with a differential preamp that doesn’t have a DEQ so I’m wondering if I should focus on searching for a used AV8802 or XMC-1 which hopefully will have better D/A conversion.

[drumace]

So it seems like I’m in a dead end situation. The AV8802 could be an option BUT it cannot be hooked to a computer and used as a DAC. The XMC-1 does have the ability to act as a DAC connected to a computer BUT unfortunately the Dirac software is not supported by the latest MacOS.
Even stepping up to the XMC-2 is not an option because I need RCA outputs for most of the channels which it doesn’t have for some reason (and also not a fan of the new power supply).
Anyone has an alternative solution which is not super expensive?

[creimes]

Dec 6, 2022 20:41:56 GMT -5 drumace said:

So it seems like I’m in a dead end situation. The AV8802 could be an option BUT it cannot be hooked to a computer and used as a DAC. The XMC-1 does have the ability to act as a DAC connected to a computer BUT unfortunately the Dirac software is not supported by the latest MacOS.
Even stepping up to the XMC-2 is not an option because I need RCA outputs for most of the channels which it doesn’t have for some reason (and also not a fan of the new power supply).
Anyone has an alternative solution which is not super expensive?

I owned a Marantz AV7702 and compared to my Sherbourn PT-7020C4 and Emotiva XMC-1 for 2ch music playback it plain out sucked, like literally the music had no life to it, I say move to the XMC-1 or XMC-2, for the XLR ouputs of the XMC-2 you can easily get adapter cables from Emotiva or Monoprice. I'm not against marantz but for me trying to use it for 2ch music listening I was highly let down by the SQ of it.


www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=35808

[drumace]

Dec 7, 2022 13:31:42 GMT -5 creimes said:

Dec 6, 2022 20:41:56 GMT -5 drumace said:

So it seems like I’m in a dead end situation. The AV8802 could be an option BUT it cannot be hooked to a computer and used as a DAC. The XMC-1 does have the ability to act as a DAC connected to a computer BUT unfortunately the Dirac software is not supported by the latest MacOS.
Even stepping up to the XMC-2 is not an option because I need RCA outputs for most of the channels which it doesn’t have for some reason (and also not a fan of the new power supply).
Anyone has an alternative solution which is not super expensive?

I owned a Marantz AV7702 and compared to my Sherbourn PT-7020C4 and Emotiva XMC-1 for 2ch music playback it plain out sucked, like literally the music had no life to it, I say move to the XMC-1 or XMC-2, for the XLR ouputs of the XMC-2 you can easily get adapter cables from Emotiva or Monoprice. I'm not against marantz but for me trying to use it for 2ch music listening I was highly let down by the SQ of it.


www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=35808

Have you compared them in pure direct mode?
Not sure if the AV7702 is on par with the AV8802 in terms of pure analog SQ but probably not a day and night difference.

[creimes]

Dec 7, 2022 14:22:19 GMT -5 drumace said:

Dec 7, 2022 13:31:42 GMT -5 creimes said:

I owned a Marantz AV7702 and compared to my Sherbourn PT-7020C4 and Emotiva XMC-1 for 2ch music playback it plain out sucked, like literally the music had no life to it, I say move to the XMC-1 or XMC-2, for the XLR ouputs of the XMC-2 you can easily get adapter cables from Emotiva or Monoprice. I'm not against marantz but for me trying to use it for 2ch music listening I was highly let down by the SQ of it.


www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=35808

Have you compared them in pure direct mode?
Not sure if the AV7702 is on par with the AV8802 in terms of pure analog SQ but probably not a day and night difference.

It's been a few years now since I owned it so I can't remember but I had it it whatever it's cleanest/purest path was, it was juts dull and lifeless like it just killed the dynamics I was used to with the Sherbourn unit and then the XMC-1 I went to after, I actually couldn't believe that a name such as Marantz made something that for music sounded so bad haha, for movies it wasn't as day and night but I love my music and my system needs to do both things well, currently I have my Mac Mini connected to my Grace SDAC Balanced DAC connected to the XLR input of my 7030, and it sounds ohh so good to my Chane 753 towers.

Chad

[tropicallutefisk]

I currently own the Marantz 8802a processor. Overall, I've been happy with it. Pretty solid and easy to use. However, I was not at all pleased with the sound quality for two channel, and believe my older Marantz actually sounded better in this respect. To remedy this, I now route my stereo listening through a Freya+ in tube mode. The sound quality is much, much improved.

[davidl81]

Dec 8, 2022 9:31:41 GMT -5 tropicallutefisk said:

I currently own the Marantz 8802a processor. Overall, I've been happy with it. Pretty solid and easy to use. However, I was not at all pleased with the sound quality for two channel, and believe my older Marantz actually sounded better in this respect. To remedy this, I now route my stereo listening through a Freya+ in tube mode. The sound quality is much, much improved.

I also have a 8802a and while in surround mode it was solid, the 2 channel was beyond disappointing. My RMC-1 is much much better. I don’t know how much of that was just the DACs though. I never tried to use an external DAC.