|
|
Post by thompson12 on Mar 21, 2023 20:37:44 GMT -5
I thought the same thing when I heard him say enter the negative value. So I thought maybe just stop clicking before it goes negative or try different dip points to click on and see what kind of value it comes up with. Mitch What will happen is you either get a totally positive value or a totally negative value. If it goes negative, then you switch the positions of the two subs in the Alignment Tool and correct the other one ... it will be positive. So are you saying his way Will work? Mitch |
|
ttocs
Global Moderator 
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,160
|
Post by ttocs on Mar 21, 2023 20:54:44 GMT -5
+ ttocs I just watched the video and it looked brilliant. Wow, look at those features ... now I understand, very simple. UNTIL ... the result was he needed to dial in -5.xxx delay to subwoofer 2! He went all the way through optimizing everything and never talked about the fact that you can't put in a negative value for delay ... you can't have the sub start playing before the sound gets there. The only way to accomplish this would be to physically move subwoofer 2 five feet closer to the MLP. Am I missing something? I thought the same thing when I heard him say enter the negative value. So I thought maybe just stop clicking before it goes negative or try different dip points to click on and see what kind of value it comes up with. Mitch If someone is saying to enter a negative delay, which we know doesn't work in a miniDSP, just add the delay to the other subwoofer(s). |
|
|
|
Post by thompson12 on Mar 21, 2023 21:00:58 GMT -5
 I'm not really sure how to work with these subs. Do you guys think I should run them through the revel setup and then sum and align with REW and miniDSP then dirac or is that to much dsp. Should i just sum and align REW then dirac. Mitch |
|
|
|
Post by thompson12 on Mar 21, 2023 21:10:25 GMT -5
I thought the same thing when I heard him say enter the negative value. So I thought maybe just stop clicking before it goes negative or try different dip points to click on and see what kind of value it comes up with. Mitch If someone is saying to enter a negative delay, which we know doesn't work in a miniDSP, just add the delay to the other subwoofer(s). ok I didn't know you could do that I'm gonna play with it this weekend and see how it works Mitch |
|
ttocs
Global Moderator
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,160
|
Post by ttocs on Mar 21, 2023 21:22:34 GMT -5
I'm not really sure how to work with these subs. Do you guys think I should run them through the revel setup and then sum and align with REW and miniDSP then dirac or is that to much dsp. Should i just sum and align REW then dirac. Mitch hmmmm, that's not an easy one for me to answer. Your subwoofers have nice controls on them! The issue is that it's more fussy work to experiment using the sub's controls vs using miniDSP. If it were me, I'd use miniDSP if I already had miniDSP, even if only to experiment with due to the ease of use aspect. Is the Revel Setup the one where you use the test signal CD and a SPL meter and make 29 measurements to enter into the app? |
|
|
|
Post by thompson12 on Mar 21, 2023 21:44:11 GMT -5
Yes it's the CD with all the frequencies, SPL levels and the Revel app.
I'm not even sure how to set these subs to have the best pass through or least internal DSP affect from the revel setting. How would you guy do the setting on the subs.
Mitch
|
|
ttocs
Global Moderator
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,160
|
Post by ttocs on Mar 21, 2023 22:26:21 GMT -5
Yes it's the CD with all the frequencies, SPL levels and the Revel app. I'm not even sure how to set these subs to have the best pass through or least internal DSP affect from the revel setting. How would you guy do the setting on the subs. Mitch I've been trying to find the LFO app manual from the era your sub was manufactured, but not having any luck with that. However, I have been reading about it and owners of your sub - from ten years ago - were saying the Revel LFO app was great for its time but couldn't compete with what was current at the time of the posts. This doesn't diminish the capabilities of your sub itself, just the app that was developed long ago. I don't think the controls on your sub are digital, I'm pretty sure they're analog. But if they are digital then I'd defeat them for sure and use current tech DSP. |
|
|
|
Post by thompson12 on Mar 21, 2023 22:36:30 GMT -5
I had to find an old computer to run the app it won't run on anything newer then Windows XP. Not sure how I'd defeat the controls.
Mitch
|
|
ttocs
Global Moderator
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,160
|
Post by ttocs on Mar 21, 2023 23:02:38 GMT -5
I had to find an old computer to run the app it won't run on anything newer then Windows XP. Not sure how I'd defeat the controls. Mitch Just set the Low Pass Filter switch to OFF to bypass the subwoofer's internal LPF (page 16 in the manual). If you want you can also set EQ1-EQ3 Levels to 0 so they won't have any effect under any circumstance (but I'm pretty sure this isn't necessary when the LPF is OFF). |
|
|
|
Post by marcl on Mar 22, 2023 1:26:19 GMT -5
What will happen is you either get a totally positive value or a totally negative value. If it goes negative, then you switch the positions of the two subs in the Alignment Tool and correct the other one ... it will be positive. So are you saying his way Will work? Mitch Yes, as long as you can get a positive value for the delay. The part that was interesting was how he clicked on the dips in the simulation and used slope of the phase to optimize the curve. The other part with correlating the multiple measurements was interesting too. It's very much like what Dirac describes regarding correcting issues that are common to all measurement points. |
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,264
|
Post by KeithL on Mar 22, 2023 9:59:40 GMT -5
It LOOKS really complicated but I don't think it actually is. For example all those knobs on top are just the adjustment for a 3-band PEQ - with a separate knob for each parameter.) And you've got high-pass and low-pass filters. Most of that is designed for using this sub with a stereo system that doesn't have built-in bass management. I have no idea what their APP does... Personally, if I was going to use both REW and Dirac, I would disable/bypass everything on the sub itself (all filters OFF.) Otherwise you have an awful lot of overlap and duplication. (And, with filters, that usually results in unnecessary, and often undesirable and unpredictable, interactions.) The PEQs are going to be redundant with the adjustments made by Dirac Live... They'll also be redundant with any adjustments you make on the MiniDSP... The Low-pass filter is going to be redundant with your other bass management... And, assuming you're not passing anything through the sub, to another amplifier, you won't be using the high-pass filters at all... In general the object is to use AS FEW ADJUSTMENTS AS POSSIBLE to achieve the desired goal. View AttachmentI'm not really sure how to work with these subs. Do you guys think I should run them through the revel setup and then sum and align with REW and miniDSP then dirac or is that to much dsp. Should i just sum and align REW then dirac. Mitch |
|
|
|
Post by marcl on Mar 22, 2023 12:32:25 GMT -5
What will happen is you either get a totally positive value or a totally negative value. If it goes negative, then you switch the positions of the two subs in the Alignment Tool and correct the other one ... it will be positive. So are you saying his way Will work? Mitch + ttocs I tried this process this morning. I measured my front 3.7 speakers alone, L/R DWMs alone, and the two subs. I took four measurements each: MLP, 1' in front, 1' to the right and 1' to the left. I did the Cross Correlation Alignment with each group of measurements for each speaker and generated the Vector Averages, then used the Alignment Tool as he did in the video. The results were delay values for the DWMs and subs that were different from the ones I had previously determined using the Alignment Tool with simple manual adjustment and looking at the predicted output. I measured the responses with the new delay values ... and they were pretty bad. I gradually changed values back in the direction of the original ones ... and the original ones just worked a lot better. What surprised me was the results were a lot worse. I was expecting maybe to have a different mix of values and more or less accomplished the same thing. So one thing for sure, there was very little difference in the multiple measurements for each speaker. Position - within a foot at least - in my room didn't matter much. So, I went back to my original values and it looks fine now. Interesting exercise though ... and quite colorful!  |
|
ttocs
Global Moderator
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,160
|
Post by ttocs on Mar 22, 2023 12:47:04 GMT -5
So are you saying his way Will work? Mitch + ttocs I tried this process this morning. I measured my front 3.7 speakers alone, L/R DWMs alone, and the two subs. I took four measurements each: MLP, 1' in front, 1' to the right and 1' to the left. I did the Cross Correlation Alignment with each group of measurements for each speaker and generated the Vector Averages, then used the Alignment Tool as he did in the video. The results were delay values for the DWMs and subs that were different from the ones I had previously determined using the Alignment Tool with simple manual adjustment and looking at the predicted output. I measured the responses with the new delay values ... and they were pretty bad. I gradually changed values back in the direction of the original ones ... and the original ones just worked a lot better. What surprised me was the results were a lot worse. I was expecting maybe to have a different mix of values and more or less accomplished the same thing. So one thing for sure, there was very little difference in the multiple measurements for each speaker. Position - within a foot at least - in my room didn't matter much. So, I went back to my original values and it looks fine now. Interesting exercise though ... and quite colorful! Well, in the video he was only aligning two subs. Were you aligning subs together or subs/speakers at a crossover point? |
|
|
|
Post by marcl on Mar 22, 2023 15:16:51 GMT -5
+ ttocs I tried this process this morning. I measured my front 3.7 speakers alone, L/R DWMs alone, and the two subs. I took four measurements each: MLP, 1' in front, 1' to the right and 1' to the left. I did the Cross Correlation Alignment with each group of measurements for each speaker and generated the Vector Averages, then used the Alignment Tool as he did in the video. The results were delay values for the DWMs and subs that were different from the ones I had previously determined using the Alignment Tool with simple manual adjustment and looking at the predicted output. I measured the responses with the new delay values ... and they were pretty bad. I gradually changed values back in the direction of the original ones ... and the original ones just worked a lot better. What surprised me was the results were a lot worse. I was expecting maybe to have a different mix of values and more or less accomplished the same thing. So one thing for sure, there was very little difference in the multiple measurements for each speaker. Position - within a foot at least - in my room didn't matter much. So, I went back to my original values and it looks fine now. Interesting exercise though ... and quite colorful! Well, in the video he was only aligning two subs. Were you aligning subs together or subs/speakers at a crossover point? I just aligned the two subs to each other; and then the each DWM to its 3.7, left and right. There is no crossover point involved in the alignment because I aligned the subs to each other for the best overall response. And BTW his thing about crossing over at 80Hz so it doesn't matter what they do above that ... fine for small speakers, but of course LFE goes up to 120Hz potentially. The 3.7 and DWM play concurrently in the 50-300Hz range so again, no crossover. Just looking for optimal combined response. |
|
ttocs
Global Moderator
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,160
|
Post by ttocs on Mar 27, 2023 10:36:53 GMT -5
Next REW ZOOM Conference
Possible date: April 6, time TBD Please speak up if you want your TIME ZONE to be considered. Some Topics can include: Impulse Window Response Matching Microphone Calibrations What Sens Factor Does Keyboard Shortcuts What does upgrading to Pro really mean? |
|
|
|
Post by thompson12 on Mar 28, 2023 5:22:18 GMT -5
This is above my level with REW at this time but what do you guys think is it worth playing around and trying. Boosting bass with a digital filter. youtu.be/q9aJqQpNyLYMitch |
|
|
|
Post by marcl on Mar 28, 2023 5:52:52 GMT -5
This is above my level with REW at this time but what do you guys think is it worth playing around and trying. Boosting bass with a digital filter. youtu.be/q9aJqQpNyLYMitch Well this is very interesting! But he was going really fast and playing with REW settings I've never seen ... and I really don't know if i could pause it 100 times and actually figure out how to do this. Note that the spreadsheet download link is in the notes. It seems though - for say a scenario with two subs connected to a miniDSP - that you could create a filter like this for each sub and then see if the combined response is improved. Then do Dirac on the result. He sure does pound that keyboard! |
|
|
|
Post by marcl on Mar 30, 2023 13:01:51 GMT -5
This is above my level with REW at this time but what do you guys think is it worth playing around and trying. Boosting bass with a digital filter. youtu.be/q9aJqQpNyLYMitch I was intrigued enough by this to try to really figure out what he's doing. Well once I got into it I had to finish, but I think I spent 2-3hrs running this 17min video at .25x speed with the titles on, pausing every few seconds to squint at the screen from 6" away and making notes. He rushes past so many button clicks without saying what he's doing, it's impossible to see in real time. I think I managed to get it all in the notes in the spreadsheet. I'll try it someday. VBA Revamped.xlsx (16.69 KB) |
|
|
|
Post by thompson12 on Mar 30, 2023 15:05:02 GMT -5
I know I commented on one of his videos about going to fast and he responded back that I can slow it down in youtube settings.
Mitch
|
|
ttocs
Global Moderator
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,160
|
Post by ttocs on Mar 30, 2023 17:42:11 GMT -5
Next REW ZOOM Conference April 6
How about 8pm EDT? Please speak up if you want your TIME ZONE to be considered. Some Topics can include: Impulse Window Response Matching Microphone Calibrations What Sens Factor Does Keyboard Shortcuts What does upgrading to Pro really mean? |
|
