All C3+ LCR and Vaulta Surrounds Room Build

[tomlink]

Hi,
Long time Emotiva user. I am building a new house and the only requirement from my wife is that the speakers must be in-wall or in-ceiling.

My current LCR configuation is a pair of biamped JBL XPL200A and a Klipsch RC-64III Center - powered by an Emo XPR-5 - and A500 for surrounds. 

I haven't found an in-wall LCR that I liked or could afford. I really like the folded-ribbon HF driver and one of the few semi-affordable options was the Golden Ear Invisa SPS in-walls. I didn't want to pay GE retail prices so I came up with the solution of building LCR speaker niches in the wall around my 85" Sony LED and installing (3) C3+ , and have some speaker grills made up to make it look like an in-wall install.

I originally planned on sealing the C3+ ports so I didn't need to worry about venting around the cabinets.

However, when I spoke to the folks at Emotiva, they advised to leave the ports open as long as I can give an inch or so around the back and sides. I know the niches will have some impact on the port perfomance - but I'm not too worried as I'm crossing them at 80Hz into a SVS SB13Ultra.

I plan on biamping the front L/R and running full-range on the center (same as my current configuration). The reason for biamp on L/R is for high-headroom serious stereo listening (biamping unlocks the magic on the JBL XPL200A).

I plan on using (4) Vaulta in-ceiling for L/R and rear surrounds, and (4) Vaulta in-ceiling for Dolby Atmos.

The room is an open-concept 25'x35'x12'H (10,500 cu.ft.). The critical listening/viewing portion of the room is about 16'x16'.

I have a few questions regarding this project and hope you all might help with  a little insight.

• Emo advised that C3+ LCR should be a killer configuration. I like the  D'Appolito-ish configuation and am ok with the impact on center channel horizontal dispersion (it's the same issue on my Klipsch RC64III). Has anyone actually built an all C3+ LCR rig yet? Thoughts?
• Is anyone using Vaulta in-ceilling speaker for surrounds/atmos in combination with a floor-standing T3+/C3+ LCR setup? Any unanticipated issues?
• I have the room to properly place the Vaulta L/R and rear surrounds in the celiing around the perimeter of the listening area. I am planning on installing the (4) Vaulta Atmos over the listening area (two towards the front and to towards the rear) all within the perimeter of the listening area.  Since all surround/atmos speakers are ceiliing-mount, are the atmos speakers redundant? Should I just stick with the surrounds?
• Anyone have a source for custom wall-mount speaker grills for the LCR C3+ niches (similar to the Vaulta grills)?

        House build starts next month (1/2023). Will need to finalize the A/V configuration by Feb/March. Any input on this plan would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

    Btw, my pair of JBL XPL200A and Klipsch RC64III will be up for sale.






 

[cawgijoe]

I’m also interested in comments/reviews on the Vaultas.

[cwmcobra]

Hi Tom,

Welcome to the Lounge! You've come with interesting questions. I can't speak to any experience with Emotiva's speakers but do have a couple of comments.

First, if you're building a new house, now is the time to install the full complement of speakers you desire for your intended use. So, there should be no question about installing the Atmos speakers in the ceiling. It will never be easier, and you won't wonder in the future if you should have done it. Run the speaker wires while the room is unfinished, you'll thank yourself later! Be sure to consult the Dolby speaker placement recommendations to properly locate the surround and in-ceiling speakers.

Second, regarding speaker grills. Are you a DIYer? If so, you might consider making your own grills. You can build frames for the niches and then build frames to be covered in acoustically transparent fabric to insert in those frames. I have side columns in my theater and the covered frames fit into the columns with no fasteners, just by surface pressure from the wrap of the fabric. I've attached a couple of pictures, but if interested PM me and I can provide more info.






Sounds like exciting times. Good luck with the build!

Merry Christmas!

Chuck

PS: Click on the pictures and they will be in the right orientation.

[tomlink]

Chuck,



Thanks very much for your response. I agree with your suggestion to install, or at least pre-wire, as many speakers as possible when designing/building the house.



I am leaning towards a 7.1.4 configuration using (3) C3+ mounted in (60"H x 12"W x 18"D) speaker niches for LCR and (8) Vaulta ceiling-mounted for LR Surround, LR Rear Surround, and Atmos.



The Dolby site has a number of configurations but the closest 7.1.4 (to my configuation) they have shows floor-mounted LCR and surrounds and ceiling-mounted Atmos.

So far, the attached Dolby 7.1.4 layour is what I plan to use. My concern is that all of my surrounds and Atmos speakers are ceiling-mounted - which is the source of my orginal question as to whether the Atmos speakers might be redundant given the proximity of ceiling-mounted surrounds to the ceiling-mounted Atmos.

Your speaker grills look great. I'm definitely a DIY'er, but the wall in which the C3+ LCR speaker niches exist has a black marble veneer. I really want to use a thin magnetic grill similar to what is utlized on the Vaulta or simlar to what you see on most in-wall speakers. I don't know if I have the skill level to make a grill that would look invisible on a marble-veneer wall. 

7_1_4_overhead_speaker_setup.pdf (1.4 MB)Living Room Wall Detail 12-27.pdf (325.53 KB)

[marcl]

Dec 28, 2022 14:36:19 GMT -5 tomlink said:

Chuck,



Thanks very much for your response. I agree with your suggestion to install, or at least pre-wire, as many speakers as possible when designing/building the house.



I am leaning towards a 7.1.4 configuration using (3) C3+ mounted in (60"H x 12"W x 18"D) speaker niches for LCR and (8) Vaulta ceiling-mounted for LR Surround, LR Rear Surround, and Atmos.



The Dolby site has a number of configurations but the closest 7.1.4 (to my configuation) they have shows floor-mounted LCR and surrounds and ceiling-mounted Atmos.

So far, the attached Dolby 7.1.4 layour is what I plan to use. My concern is that all of my surrounds and Atmos speakers are ceiling-mounted - which is the source of my orginal question as to whether the Atmos speakers might be redundant given the proximity of ceiling-mounted surrounds to the ceiling-mounted Atmos.

Your speaker grills look great. I'm definitely a DIY'er, but the wall in which the C3+ LCR speaker niches exist has a black marble veneer. I really want to use a thin magnetic grill similar to what is utlized on the Vaulta or simlar to what you see on most in-wall speakers. I don't know if I have the skill level to make a grill that would look invisible on a marble-veneer wall. 

View AttachmentView AttachmentView Attachment

I'm compelled to chime in here .... the way that Atmos works, side and rear surrounds (as well as LCR) have to be at ear level, and the tops have to be at ceiling level.  It just can't work with all the surround and Atmos  speaker in the ceiling.  You'll hear them, but the sounds can't be steered in the 3D space at all.  All the sound will come from the ceiling.  And in fact even if you don't do Atmos, the side and rear surrounds still need to be at ear level and not in the ceiling to do 5.1 or 7.1.

[cwmcobra]

Tom,

You certainly have a unique layout in your living room. And I have no experience in dealing with marble veneer, so can't comment on it. Sounds you might be best served to find magnetic grills in a size that works, as was your plan.

And I have to reinforce Marc's comment about the elevation of the surround speakers. They definitely need to be at or near ear level to provide the desired surround sound. I understand it's a living room and not a dedicated home theater, but since you are, I believe in the planning stages, can't you incorporate in-wall surrounds instead of mounting them on the ceiling? That seems very workable, and you can even purchase in-wall subwoofers if desired.

Good luck with the plans and the build. Come back and share updates when you can.

Happy New Year!

Chuck

[ttocs]

Dec 28, 2022 14:36:19 GMT -5 tomlink said:

I am leaning towards a 7.1.4 configuration using (3) C3+ mounted in (60"H x 12"W x 18"D) speaker niches for LCR and (8) Vaulta ceiling-mounted for LR Surround, LR Rear Surround, and Atmos.

The Dolby site has a number of configurations but the closest 7.1.4 (to my configuation) they have shows floor-mounted LCR and surrounds and ceiling-mounted Atmos.

So far, the attached Dolby 7.1.4 layout is what I plan to use. My concern is that all of my surrounds and Atmos speakers are ceiling-mounted - which is the source of my orginal question as to whether the Atmos speakers might be redundant given the proximity of ceiling-mounted surrounds to the ceiling-mounted Atmos.

I mounted the Surrounds in the walls around my Great Room at the desired angles, both vertically and horizontally. They all are not at the same height from the floor, but instead at matching angles to be the same attitude from the MLP. The Surround Right is about one foot above ear level and about 8 feet away, so all other Surrounds match this rise angle.

The Surround Right was chosen by me to be at the height it is so that all the other Surrounds could be "seen" by my ears with my reclining sofa in its upright position and not be blocked by the seat back. Any lower and it would be impossible to hear all speakers directly without being blocked, nor would it be possible to correctly measure with the microphone when running Dirac or REW as the microphone should always be able to get a direct line of sight view of every speaker, otherwise, it's measuring reflections.

The Surround Left is in the "Dining Area", and the Surround Back Left is in the "Kitchen Area". The ATMOS speakers are mounted on the ceiling, actually, hanging from the ceiling as my cathedral ceiling is the roof - which was built using 2x8's (67 years ago). So there's not enough space in the ceiling/roof without destroying the insulation value which I had foamed when the shingles and about a third of the 1x12 sheathing boards were replaced, so a lot of the roof's interior was exposed making it easy to get the foam sprayed from the top.


I'm sharing this to show that it's possible to get a good result in a multipurpose room. Room layout, furniture, etc, will obviously dictate if speakers can be mounted in-wall like I was able to do. But it's nice when it works so well.

[tomlink]

Thanks very much for the responses - and Happy New Year!

I've attached a drawing of the living room wall and the building plan for the first-floor layout. The living room wall layout is dictated by the 85" TV, art niches and the linear fireplace. L/R separation is about 9'.  Speaker niches are 12"x18"x60". Definitely need a source for custom surface-mount grills (it would be a lot easier if Emotiva would make a in-wall version of the C3+ w/grill - nice pairing with the Vaultas - hint, hint!).

The floor layout shows the 25'x35' open area and the approx. 16'x16' listening area (12' ceiling) and including the tentative layout of 7.1 surrounds (no Atmos yet) . The center of the MLP is apprximately where the ceiling fan is located.  While  I could physically place the R/Surround  on the right wall, it would have to be above the windows (9') -  and there is really no wall for the other surrounds - so I have no other option but to place the surrounds in the ceiling.

My original idea of 7.1.4 sounded like a good solution, but I didn't want to spend the money on (8) Vaulta speakers if the combination was a total audio mess with all surround/Atmos Vaultas ceiling-mounted.

This situation is why I asked if anyone had experience trying to utlize a combination of Atmos and surrounds in an in-ceiling configuation. I did recently find data on a surround/Atmos all ceiling-mount configuration (jensenspeakers.com). They recommneded a 5.1.2 ceiling-mount configuation as opposed to the base 7.1 system I started with. I'm leaning towards the 5.1.2 config below as it is just about the only config I have seen which adresses the issue of ceiling-mount surrounds and Atmos.

I was in the pro audio business for over 20 years so I understand that unless I am building a purpose-built HT room or recording studio, there will be compromises. I like the Vaultas for the fact that they will match the C3+ (and have directional HF drivers) - and I'm planning on utilizing my Yamaha CX-A5100 preamp which has decent room correcton - so I might be able minimize the impact of this ceiling-mount surround/Atmos. 

Given the physical limitations of my room, I'm trying to determine the most effective in-ceiling use of surround/Atmos speakers - 5.1 / 5.1.2 / 5.1.4 / 7.1 / 7.1.2 / 7.1.4 are basically my options. If anyone has any experience or has some additional data regarding the best (or least-worst) combination of ceiling surround/Atmos - and/or a source for surface-mount speaker grills - it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Btw, I asked Dolby via their website if there was any combination of in-ceiling surrounds and in-ceiling Atmos that could be recommended. I'll post if they respond.





AV Layout.pdf (350.16 KB)

[tomlink]

New house construction has finally started framing, but still about 4-5 months before sheetrock. I spoke to a number of folks regarding my speaker configuation. I've decided to go with a 7.1.2, but will wire for 7.1.4 

I couldn't figure out a clean/simple way to use the Airmotive C3+ for in-wall LCR (and Emotiva has yet to make me an actual C3+ in-wall version), so I punted and plan to utlize JBL Synthesis SCL-6 for LCR. JBL SCL-6 is expensive but I sold my JBL XPL200A speakers to offset some of the SCL-6 cost.

I plan to use the Emo Vaultas for surround L/R and surround rear L/R, and front L/R Atmos. The LCR speakers will be in-wall and all of the surround/Atmos will be ceiling-mounted. There is concern that the Atmos won't be very effective as there is no vertical separation between the Atmos and surrounds. However, from what I have been able to determine, the vertical separation between the LCR and Atmos will provide enough vertical audio separation for Atmos to make sense. This is why I am starting with 7.1.2 but will have the option to go 7.1.4 if the Atmos is effective-ish in this configuration.

I have seen recent posts on the Vaultas. Is it necessary to use a rough-in bracket for the ceiling speakers if I am just mounting in ceiling sheetrock? I asked Emo for a recommendation for a back box size but they simply advised that the speakers were designed as infinite baffle. In any case, I am going to make 1 cu. ft. joist-mounted back boxes for the Vaultas mainly to avoid bleed to the master bedroom directly above on the next floor. I'm pretty sure 1 cu. ft. will be enough volume to avoid the dreaded 100Hz bump but would be interested in anyone's advice/experience with ceiling or wall-mounted Vaultas.