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Post by Boomzilla on May 21, 2023 19:32:33 GMT -5
I currently have an Netgear Orbi router in the computer room at the far end of my house from the living room. The living room is also the music & movie room.
On the Orbi network is my wife's computer, a laser printer, the iPad that controls Roon, and my kids' computers (but only when they come visiting at Christmas).
I'm moving my Roon core music server from the Mac mini in my computer room to a HP Windows 10 laptop in the living room.
I have an Ethernet cable already run from the computer room to the living room, so the HP will connect to the internet over that.
Now for my question:
The two options that I see are to leave the existing Orbi Wi-Fi network in place as the sole wireless in the house or to let the HP create a "music only" wireless network in the living room. The iPad controlling Roon will need to connect to one or the other.
In favor of leaving the one Orbi network as the sole Wi-Fi in the house:
Simplicity - No need to tax the HP with creating its own network, so the laptop can expend all its resources serving music and sending USB audio to the DAC
In favor of letting the HP add a second network to be used only for music:
Potentially increased reliability - the music system has, up until now, exhibited a tendency to spontaneously (but rarely) disconnect from the Roon server (at the far end of the house). Maybe by letting the laptop create a single-use, music-only network, the disconnects will cease? With a second network, the ONLY device on the network will be the iPad with Roon Remote on it.
It's possible that I misunderstand the issues with wireless networks, so I'll ask your input before deciding.
Thanks - Boomzilla
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Post by AudioHTIT on May 21, 2023 23:26:52 GMT -5
To gain a network / traffic advantage with a second WiFi network, it would need to be on a second channel, or possibly 5Mhz vs 2.4. Though I don’t understand what’s ‘disconnecting’ and how it’s connected, IMO ‘adding WiFi’ is rarely a good thing if it’s not needed, your network is simple, leave it that way.
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Post by LuisV on May 22, 2023 0:02:50 GMT -5
Sorry Boom... but I'm so confused as to what you're trying to do... it seems that you're simply making matters worse and over complicating things.
No need for a music only wireless network... won't make a difference as you're using consumer based network equipment and worse yet, a wireless mesh system.
Simply add a network switch, connect everything that can connect via ethernet to that switch and leave wireless to phones, iPads and tablets. Make sure it's a GB switch and you'll be fine.
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Post by Boomzilla on May 22, 2023 7:24:58 GMT -5
I didn't make myself clear, apparently.
The current Roon server is controlled by an iPad app called Roon Remote. As of now, the server (and the Wi-Fi router) are in the computer room. The iPad, obviously, is at the far end of the house in the living room. To communicate with the server, the iPad has to send and receive Wi-Fi data from the opposite end of the house on a network with other traffic. About once every 30 minutes, the iPad loses connection with the server and the Roon Remote app has to be shut down and restarted to reestablish the connection.
What I'm considering is a move of the Roon server from the computer room to the living room. Then set up an independent Wi-Fi network from the new server that is in the same room as the iPad. The iPad will be the only device on this new network.
By doing so, I'm hoping to eliminate the connection issues between the Roon server and the iPad controller. I am thinking that increased reliability will be available due to two factors:
1. The Wi-Fi source (the server computer) will be in the same room as the iPad, ensuring the strongest possible connection.
2. The iPad, being the only device on the server's network, won't have to compete with any other devices.
I understand the "keep it simple" instinct, and in most cases, it's good. In this specific circumstance, I'm not so sure.
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Post by AudioHTIT on May 22, 2023 8:31:54 GMT -5
My first thought would be to improve the Wi-Fi throughout the house by adding an access point, but don’t you already have a mesh network or is there just one Orbi? (I seemed to remember from another thread you had more than one). My second thought would be whether having the HP in the living room might introduce fan noise, especially if it gets busy and hot, but you may already know if that’s the case. It doesn’t sound like a great idea to me, but it shouldn’t be that hard to set up an ad hoc network and try it (that’s the name for what you’re suggesting).
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Post by LuisV on May 22, 2023 9:03:58 GMT -5
My first thought would be to improve the Wi-Fi throughout the house by adding an access point, but don’t you already have a mesh network or is there just one Orbi? (I seemed to remember from another thread you had more than one). My second thought would be whether having the HP in the living room might introduce fan noise, especially if it gets busy and hot, but you may already know if that’s the case. It doesn’t sound like a great idea to me, but it shouldn’t be that hard to set up an ad hoc network and try it (that’s the name for what you’re suggesting). Here's the underlying and obvious issue.... in your home, where the iPad and stereo is (living room), you have a wireless dead-zone. If you move the Roon server into the living room, you are accomplishing nothing as you already established there is a dead zone. Using a PC to create a new network is not required and will cause more issues than good. In your original post, you indicate that you have an ethernet cable plugged into an HP PC in the living room. So... use that ethernet cable to fix all of your issues... - Buy a PoE Network Switch
- Buy a PoE Wireless Access Point
- Disconnect ethernet cable from HP PC in living room
- Plug ethernet cable that was connected to the HP PC cable into switch port 1
- Plug HP PC into switch, doesn't matter which port
- Plug Wireless Access Point (WAP) into switch; doesn't matter what port
- Use remaining ports to plug anything else within the living room via ethernet
- Read manual and install software to control PoE WAP to use the existing SSID from the Orbi; this allows any wireless device to seamlessly roam between the Orbi and new WAP; therefore, eliminating the dead zone in the living room
- Enjoy Roon and a stronger wireless network
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Post by AudioHTIT on May 22, 2023 9:49:31 GMT -5
My first thought would be to improve the Wi-Fi throughout the house by adding an access point, but don’t you already have a mesh network or is there just one Orbi? (I seemed to remember from another thread you had more than one). My second thought would be whether having the HP in the living room might introduce fan noise, especially if it gets busy and hot, but you may already know if that’s the case. It doesn’t sound like a great idea to me, but it shouldn’t be that hard to set up an ad hoc network and try it (that’s the name for what you’re suggesting). Here's the underlying and obvious issue.... in your home, where the iPad and stereo is (living room), you have a wireless dead-zone. If you move the Roon server into the living room, you are accomplishing nothing as you already established there is a dead zone. Using a PC to create a new network is not required and will cause more issues than good. In your original post, you indicate that you have an ethernet cable plugged into an HP PC in the living room. So... use that ethernet cable to fix all of your issues... - Buy a PoE Network Switch
- Buy a PoE Wireless Access Point
- Disconnect ethernet cable from HP PC in living room
- Plug ethernet cable that was connected to the HP PC cable into switch port 1
- Plug HP PC into switch, doesn't matter which port
- Plug Wireless Access Point (WAP) into switch; doesn't matter what port
- Use remaining ports to plug anything else within the living room via ethernet
- Read manual and install software to control PoE WAP to use the existing SSID from the Orbi; this allows any wireless device to seamlessly roam between the Orbi and new WAP; therefore, eliminating the dead zone in the living room
- Enjoy Roon and a stronger wireless network
There’s a lot of buyy in there for Boom (unless he could find it all at a yard sale, buy is a four letter word! 😊). While I fully agree with your assessment, I think it’s overkill for his roughly four devices. Given the simplicity, I’d probably add another Orbi in the Living room to extend the Wi-Fi —- and the wired network with it’s built in switch — hooking the Orbi to the Ethernet cable for backhaul, and plugging the HP into it. But it still requires a buyy. |
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Post by LuisV on May 22, 2023 10:14:44 GMT -5
There’s a lot of buyy in there for Boom (unless he could find it all at a yard sale, buy is a four letter word! 😊). While I fully agree with your assessment, I think it’s overkill for his roughly four devices. Given the simplicity, I’d probably add another Orbi in the Living room to extend the Wi-Fi —- and the wired network with it’s built in switch — hooking the Orbi to the Ethernet cable for backhaul, and plugging the HP into it. But it still requires a buyy. I'm assuming that since the Orbi isn't able to extend into the living room, adding a second mesh device will simply cause more issues than good. A mesh device, as I'm sure you know, connects to each other wirelessly... so... there's already some bad wireless voodoo in the room, so why chance more problems. If buying something new is a 4 letter word for Boom... then not sure how to help as he'll need to buy something. Overkill? Depends on how you look at it... the switch and WAP would provide growth and the wireless dead zone would be gone. Both can be boxed up and move with him into a new home. I dunno... I guess I'm looking at this differently... he's posted network connectivity issues numerous times over the last several months. So, why not simply tackle it once and be done. The amount of time spent thus far trying to research options and finagle something hasn't worked and I'm sure he's beyond frustrated... that alone is worth the price of buying a switch and a WAP. If buying something is a 4 letter word... then sorry, not sure how to fix it other than relocating everything in close proximity to the Orbi or router. |
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Post by Boomzilla on May 22, 2023 10:59:08 GMT -5
I have little problem throwing money at a problem. But I want assurance that the money spent will accomplish what I want done.
There could be other issues with this setup unrelated to the Wi-Fi network itself:
The (older) iPad could have its own Wi-Fi issues
The Roon Remote software might be flaky
The existing Orbi router might have problems that I don't know about
I will say the following:
My wife's computer is on the Wi-Fi network for internet access, and she has no problem with reliable service (her machine is in the same room as the Orbi).
My kids are all over the house when they come home, and they all use the Orbi's Wi-Fi network constantly without dropouts or glitches.
The laser printer is midway between the computer room and the living room, and despite being a Wi-Fi only device, it is 100% reliable.
I can use my iPhone on the Orbi network both in the living room and in the kitchen (even farther away than the living room) with fair signal strength and flawless performance.
So, at this point, it becomes an issue of probabilities:
What's the probability that the existing Orbi network is at fault?
What's the probability that the older iPad is at fault?
What's the probability that it's something other than these?
My assessment of these three is low, medium, and low in that order. So it may just be time to bust out for a new iPad mini?
Boomzilla
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Post by AudioHTIT on May 22, 2023 11:17:40 GMT -5
Standard troubleshooting, what kind of speed do you get with a wired connection — directly into the router with Speedtest, OpenSpeedtest, Fast, etc) — does it meet your ISP plans advertised speeds? Same with the iPad when you have a good signal (close to the router). Using the wired HP, ping the iPad while it’s located in the living room, use the ping options that give you the shortest interval (not sure with Windows, but probably every 0.1 sec), let it run for a while and do some simple things on the iPad while it’s going on. When you stop the ping (ctrl-c) it will tell you how many total packets were sent, and received, as well as a percentage. You might try it again with a larger payload (another option). That should give you some idea how your iPad is performing in the living room, if a lot of packets are dropped, try it again with iPad close to router and compare, you could also compare your iPhone’s performance on this, but if it’s newer it’s WiFi performance will probably be better. You could also use an app called IPerf to test speed between devices, either wired or wifi. You need testing and data to answer your questions.
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Post by LuisV on May 22, 2023 11:49:50 GMT -5
I have little problem throwing money at a problem. But I want assurance that the money spent will accomplish what I want done. There could be other issues with this setup unrelated to the Wi-Fi network itself: The (older) iPad could have its own Wi-Fi issues The Roon Remote software might be flaky The existing Orbi router might have problems that I don't know about I will say the following: My wife's computer is on the Wi-Fi network for internet access, and she has no problem with reliable service (her machine is in the same room as the Orbi). My kids are all over the house when they come home, and they all use the Orbi's Wi-Fi network constantly without dropouts or glitches. The laser printer is midway between the computer room and the living room, and despite being a Wi-Fi only device, it is 100% reliable. I can use my iPhone on the Orbi network both in the living room and in the kitchen (even farther away than the living room) with fair signal strength and flawless performance. So, at this point, it becomes an issue of probabilities: What's the probability that the existing Orbi network is at fault? What's the probability that the older iPad is at fault? What's the probability that it's something other than these? My assessment of these three is low, medium, and low in that order. So it may just be time to bust out for a new iPad mini? Boomzilla Try Roon on the iPhone... if that is flawless, then yes, it's the iPad. |
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Post by novisnick on May 22, 2023 12:17:04 GMT -5
Hi Boomzilla , I don’t believe your router / mesh system is farther apart then mine. The only time Ive realized a disconnect between any of my gear is after a power outage, short or long term. I do have multiple rather complicated systems. I don’t believe another wifi system will help. |
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Post by Boomzilla on May 22, 2023 12:49:58 GMT -5
Standard troubleshooting, what kind of speed do you get with a wired connection — directly into the router with Speedtest, OpenSpeedtest, Fast, etc) — does it meet your ISP plans advertised speeds? Same with the iPad when you have a good signal (close to the router). Using the wired HP, ping the iPad while it’s located in the living room, use the ping options that give you the shortest interval (not sure with Windows, but probably every 0.1 sec), let it run for a while and do some simple things on the iPad while it’s going on. When you stop the ping (ctrl-c) it will tell you how many total packets were sent, and received, as well as a percentage. You might try it again with a larger payload (another option). That should give you some idea how your iPad is performing in the living room, if a lot of packets are dropped, try it again with iPad close to router and compare, you could also compare your iPhone’s performance on this, but if it’s newer it’s WiFi performance will probably be better. You could also use an app called IPerf to test speed between devices, either wired or wifi. You need testing and data to answer your questions. Speedtest results: Mac M2 mini wired directly to the Orbi via Ethernet: 574 download / 10 upload iPhone 13 via Wi-Fi in the Orbi room: 546 download / 10 upload iPhone 13 via Wi-Fi in the music room: 75 download / 3 upload HP laptop via Wi-Fi in the Orbi room: 49 download / 11 upload HP laptop via Wi-Fi in the music room: 37 download / 10 upload HP laptop via Ethernet in the music room: 480 download / 12 upload My conclusion? Low Wi-Fi strength in the music room! But I do note that the HP laptop did poorly via WiFi even in the Orbi room... |
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Post by AudioHTIT on May 22, 2023 13:37:45 GMT -5
... But I do note that the HP laptop did poorly via WiFi even in the Orbi room... Unless this is a really old laptop that does seem odd, and doesn't bode well for your original idea of adding WiFi tasks to it as well (I'd be troubleshooting the laptop now, though if it's normally wired this won't matter). So do you just have the one Orbi or is there another somewhere already? I still think a 2nd, wired Orbi (a satellite I believe they call it) in the music room would be the simplest solution, and should be plug and play using your existing Orbi software, or try your original idea. How about placement of the 'base' Orbi, is it out in the open, up high if possible, away from other devices? We can't tell you what you want to spend, or how much effort you want to put into what really is just having decent wifi throughout your home. |
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Post by Boomzilla on May 22, 2023 14:59:47 GMT -5
I neglected to test the most important (and must suspect) part of this equation - the old iPad. So, here's the results:
iPad in music room: Download - 13 / Upload - 9
iPad in Orbi room: Download - 33 / Upload - 11
POTENTIAL CONCLUSIONS FROM DATA ANALYSIS:
1. The HP laptop (about a 2019 model with an i5) is mediocre when connected to external wi-fi. It is just fine with Ethernet. Would the HP be similarly poor when hosting its own wi-fi server? One way to find out... But either way, the HP isn't the weakest link in this signal chain.
2. The old iPad is mediocre when connected to ANY wi-fi. Its signal strength showed full bars in both the Orbi room and the music room, but its performance suuuuuuucked. Therefore, the old iPad may be due for retirement?
3. With a fresh iPad, the laptop may be the next bottleneck in the system, but it may still be adequate.
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Post by Boomzilla on May 23, 2023 10:26:56 GMT -5
With the laptop connected via Ethernet, I used Windows 10 to create a separate Wi-Fi network and then connected the iPad to that. SpeedTest results from the iPad on the new wireless network:
Download - 33 / Upload - 8
So not significantly different than when connected to the Orbi network directly.
My iPad mini is a Generation 2 model. I just ordered a refurbished Generation 7. We'll see if things improve...
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Post by simpleman68 on May 23, 2023 10:34:45 GMT -5
I have little problem throwing money at a problem. But I want assurance that the money spent will accomplish what I want done. Boomzilla Man... this is always the rub for me. I hate the unknown outliers, but sometimes that's all we get once other research/resources have been exhausted.
So rare that somebody has the same exact gear as ours. Add to that the firmware conflicts, synergy issues etc, and it can be a real crap shoot.
Scott
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KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,256
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Post by KeithL on May 23, 2023 11:01:29 GMT -5
There's something you need to understand... If you're using the iPad ONLY as a "controller" then it uses and required very little bandwidth. What it needs is a solid consistent connection that doesn't provoke the device at either end to "think that the connection has been broken". When you use a cell phone, as you move from area to area, your connection is "handed off" from tower to tower. Similarly, if you have multiple WiFi nodes, or a mesh network, your connection may be :handed off" as you move around the house. These handoffs are the points where interesting things can occur... and where "the connection can be lost". Also, unfortunately, WiFi is RADIO.... think "walkie talkie". Therefore the signal can experience interference from things like electrical devices (especially a nearby router or something like a microwave oven when its on)... And, in addition to that, the radio signal can be BLOCKED by things... Just think about how, when you use a cell phone, occasionally you "miss words"... Now imagine that ,every time your controller "misses a word", it assumes that it is no longer connected... This is almost certainly what you are experiencing. There are a variety of different places where you MAY find settings for "timeouts" and "retries"... (You may find settings like this on your router, on the computer, or in Roon...) And, if possible, to reduce "drops", you would want to set timeouts LONGER and retries to MORE. (It's pretty well up to the software how hard it tries to reestablish a lost connection before it gives up.) You may also find that the drops happen more often in certain rooms, or certain places IN the room, in which case you may need to avoid those locations. (Again... very much like, with a cell phone, with WiFi, there are basically "bad spots" and "shadows" - which is why wired connections are more reliable. ) With the laptop connected via Ethernet, I used Windows 10 to create a separate Wi-Fi network and then connected the iPad to that. SpeedTest results from the iPad on the new wireless network: Download - 33 / Upload - 8 So not significantly different than when connected to the Orbi network directly. My iPad mini is a Generation 2 model. I just ordered a refurbished Generation 7. We'll see if things improve... |
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Post by Boomzilla on May 23, 2023 14:21:29 GMT -5
Plan B -
Try the newer iPad on the existing Orbi.
Still having dropouts? Add an Orbi extender in the music room.
Still having dropouts? Uninstall Roon and try again with jRiver Media Center.
Still having dropouts? MOVE.
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,256
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Post by KeithL on May 23, 2023 14:54:57 GMT -5
As someone already pointed out... WiFi devices use various channels... and can actually interfere with each other. The problem could actually be that you have TOO MANY WiFi routers and gadgets too close together. (They could be "competing for the same channel" or just plain "interfering with each other".) You might actually get better results if you disconnect a few things... For example, you want your iPad to connect to ONE node, and remain connected... If you have two nodes, offering equal signal strength where it is, then it may "jump back and forth", which could cause exactly the problem you're experiencing. There are also some devices that will actually overload and malfunction if you move them too close to the router (usually only if you put them within a few feet.) It seems to me that the obvious solution, which you seem to very strenuously avoid, is to use a controller that you can connect with a wire. (At least some Android and some Apple tablets still have that capability... and most laptops either have an Ethernet port or can be used with a USB/Ethernet dongle.) Plan B - Try the newer iPad on the existing Orbi. Still having dropouts? Add an Orbi extender in the music room. Still having dropouts? Uninstall Roon and try again with jRiver Media Center. Still having dropouts? MOVE. |
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