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Post by widespreadpanic on May 23, 2023 20:54:00 GMT -5
What makes for a good turntable? What should I look for in choosing one? Is there a preference to direct drive or a separate motor? How about that thingy that sits in the middle on top of the album, what is it? How should I set one up?I see these very expensive turntables that look like they could be spacecrafts. Is this for better aerodynamics? Just wondering because my stepfather has an old school turntable, it is a Technics, and a large LP collection. Any input would be helpful. Thank you kindly for your consideration.
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Post by creimes on May 24, 2023 0:29:44 GMT -5
I use to own one from these guys uturnaudio.com/ but due to not getting much use I sold it, was a nice table for the price, I did the custom build with acrylic platter and Ortofon Blue cartridge |
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cawgijoe
Emo VIPs 
"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." - Yogi Berra
Posts: 5,033
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Post by cawgijoe on May 24, 2023 7:28:35 GMT -5
I still have a Pioneer PL-300 that I bought in the early 80's that is still going strong. Direct Drive. Ortofon Red cartridge. There are tons of choices these days. For me, not being a big vinyl spinner, I would look at lower end Project or uturnaudio.com as creimes mentioned.
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Post by SteveH on May 24, 2023 20:19:00 GMT -5
I recently purchased a REGA Planar P3 with a Rega Elys 2 cartridge preinstalled. It is not too expensive, nor is it inexpensive, but it is what I would consider an entry-level turntable in today's turntable society. Some of today's turntables act as though they compensate for the earth's axis tilt and rotational forces! What an upgrade from my 1978 BIC six album fully automatic turntable and my 1982 Hitachi semi-automatic turntable, both turntables still operate 100% today. I truly do miss the semi-automatic turntable, but a manual turntable is the most common today and the best bang for your buck. I did purchase a TRU-LIFT tonearm lifter to pick up the tonearm at the end of the album. I realized I needed the TRU-LIFT when I was preparing a pork roast, I was all coated in olive oil when the album was over, the tonearm was riding in the runout groove and I could not tend to it, haha.
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Post by 405x5 on May 26, 2023 10:25:40 GMT -5
What makes for a good turntable? What should I look for in choosing one? Is there a preference to direct drive or a separate motor? How about that thingy that sits in the middle on top of the album, what is it? How should I set one up?I see these very expensive turntables that look like they could be spacecrafts. Is this for better aerodynamics? Just wondering because my stepfather has an old school turntable, it is a Technics, and a large LP collection. Any input would be helpful. Thank you kindly for your consideration. For all of the factors that separate a good turntable from a great one it’s a far better project to maximize your benefit of digital audio at home and say goodbye to the record player. Ever since this discussion got launched decades ago, the digital realm has continued to rise up in leaps and bounds, while the turntable has remained relatively constant As time goes on the gap between the two has grown so large that the turntable is no longer even worth talking about. I totally get the passion for records and the whole tactile experience that goes along with it and that’s fine if indeed, that’s your cup of tea , then you should continue to enjoy it for everything you get out of it |
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Post by arthurz on May 26, 2023 15:43:20 GMT -5
Technically, you're clearly correct. However, it's common for vinyl editions to be mastered differently than the same record on CD. Check out dr.loudness-war.info/ and look up YOUR music. For example, Rammstein's Zeit has the dynamic range of 11 dB on vinyl and 5 dB on CD. This is the sole reason I buy vinyl (when backed up by DR data). |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 26, 2023 17:08:32 GMT -5
It is beyond common... It is virtually impossible to record content mastered for CD or digital distribution directly onto vinyl successfully... There are actually certain technical limitations that REQUIRE content to be altered in order to get it successfully onto vinyl. For various reasons high frequency sounds like loud cymbal crashes, at very high levels, HAVE to be limited before the content is sent to the cutting lathe. (Both because the actual cutting head on the lathe cannot handle high frequencies at full saturation, and because, even if it could, a turntable couldn't play them.) In addition to that, everything below 100-200 Hz must be mixed down into monaural, and probably limited as well. (Because low frequencies, at high level, where the channels are different, require very wide track spacing on the record itself, which drastically limits the recording time per side.) Technically speaking, because they lack these limitations, CDs are CAPABLE of FAR better dynamic range than vinyl. However, sadly, on many modern albums, more compression is used, resulting in less "apparent dynamic range"... but that is strictly by the CHOICE of the producer or mixing engineer. It's also worth mentioning that a lot of what is being casually said about "the loudness wars" is technically incorrect... Even poorly recorded, and heavily compressed, digital recordings actually have a LOT of dynamic range. Dynamic range is the difference between the absolute loudest sound, and the absolute quietest sound, on the album or track. And, on virtually all digital recordings, the absolute loudest sounds are very near 0 dB, and the quietest sounds are very near the lower limit of about -96 dB. The actual numbers being presented as "dynamic range" in these comparisons would be more accurately described as "average dynamic variation".... It's sort of a weighted average of how much of the available dynamic range the mix engineer "is using the majority of the time". (In other words, digital recordings have far more dynamic range available than vinyl record albums, but modern recording engineers usually USE far less of it.) Technically, you're clearly correct. However, it's common for vinyl editions to be mastered differently than the same record on CD. Check out dr.loudness-war.info/ and look up YOUR music. For example, Rammstein's Zeit has the dynamic range of 11 dB on vinyl and 5 dB on CD. This is the sole reason I buy vinyl (when backed up by DR data). |
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Post by arthurz on May 26, 2023 17:22:51 GMT -5
It is beyond common... It is virtually impossible to record content mastered for CD or digital distribution directly onto vinyl successfully... Of course. I obviously meant other editing such as compression. It is beyond common... However, sadly, on many modern albums, more compression is used, resulting in less "apparent dynamic range"... but that is strictly by the CHOICE of the producer or mixing engineer. BINGO!! That was my ENTIRE point! It is beyond common... It's also worth mentioning that a lot of what is being casually said about "the loudness wars" is technically incorrect... Even poorly recorded, and heavily compressed, digital recordings actually have a LOT of dynamic range. Dynamic range is the difference between the absolute loudest sound, and the absolute quietest sound, on the album or track. And, on virtually all digital recordings, the absolute loudest sounds are very near 0 dB, and the quietest sounds are very near the lower limit of about -96 dB. The actual numbers being presented as "dynamic range" in these comparisons would be more accurately described as "average dynamic variation".... It's sort of a weighted average of how much of the available dynamic range the mix engineer "is using the majority of the time". (In other words, digital recordings have far more dynamic range available than vinyl record albums, but modern recording engineers usually USE far less of it.) Clearly numbers such as 5–11 dB indicate we're not talking about the dynamic range of the medium, which even for inner grooves on vinyl are as high as 55 dB. The point I and many other people are making are that the technical superiority of digital formats is IRRELEVANT if the record is highly compressed, sometimes to the point of clipping. But thanks for providing the actual definition of the DR as reported by the source I linked. |
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Post by novisnick on May 26, 2023 17:35:25 GMT -5
widespreadpanic and 405x5 , Once upon a time, I too wanted to upgrade my aging technics TT and I allowed the local HiFi shop owner to talk the Mrs into spending more than we were comfortable with. He wasn’t looking to his purse, he was interested in listening to my wants and needs and if I really wanted to make a smart for me purchase. To this day we have become good friends and talk about music a lot. Getting to the point, Im so glad it took his advice a decade ago and purchased the Rega RP6 with an Exact II cartridge. It was above what I was comfortable with spending. Best investment in great sounding music that I’ve ever made, In my opinion of course. There is no better way to get the full body of the music to my ears. I have an above average digital system for when I wish to explore music that has been recommended and don’t have. I also use my streamer for when Im lazy or tired and just want to relax or fall asleep. BUT! When I wish to be fully engulfed in music and it’s expensive I drop a needle and enjoy. No matter how one consumes their music, whether it’s digital or analogue the most important thing to remember is to enjoy 🎶❤️🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶
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Turntables
May 26, 2023 18:03:35 GMT -5
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Post by 405x5 on May 26, 2023 18:03:35 GMT -5
widespreadpanic and 405x5 , Once upon a time, I too wanted to upgrade my aging technics TT and I allowed the local HiFi shop owner to talk the Mrs into spending more than we were comfortable with. He wasn’t looking to his purse, he was interested in listening to my wants and needs and if I really wanted to make a smart for me purchase. To this day we have become good friends and talk about music a lot. Getting to the point, Im so glad it took his advice a decade ago and purchased the Rega RP6 with an Exact II cartridge. It was above what I was comfortable with spending. Best investment in great sounding music that I’ve ever made, In my opinion of course. There is no better way to get the full body of the music to my ears. I have an above average digital system for when I wish to explore music that has been recommended and don’t have. I also use my streamer for when Im lazy or tired and just want to relax or fall asleep. BUT! When I wish to be fully engulfed in music and it’s expensive I drop a needle and enjoy. No matter how one consumes their music, whether it’s digital or analogue the most important thing to remember is to enjoy 🎶❤️🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶 I totally get this…… Like I said in my original post. I always remember when I would buy a new record being so happy with that pristine copy coming out of the jacket for the first time after that, it was that waiting game for the first scratch pop click or skip it’s just drove me crazy. I am inherently lazy and when I did my maintenance on my record collection which included anti-static jackets that I would replace the originals with …… Then, the Discwasher liquid and applicator. The stylus brush that I used because I didn’t want the potential tracking error involved with the brush that would be attached to the stylus I had a Shibata stylus in my Stanton cartridge 681EEE. The maintenance end of all of this is endless really where you have to be constantly focusing on cleanliness, unless you leave yourself in a very vulnerable position with your collection. I also hate that very limited time. That you can be in the sweet spot without having to do something…… Since you’re limited to a very small timeslot compared to today with music, DVD concerts in a while, and the Blu-ray is absolutely killer. |
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Post by vcautokid on May 26, 2023 20:30:41 GMT -5
Compromise folks. Remember it all physically has to fit on that record. Also the stylus has to track it. Duh you are not getting 90db of dynamics. It plain won't fit. Also constraints of the RIAA curve too. Oh, just pissed off a bunch on that. Keith is right from the physics point of view. But the plain truth is people dig vinyl. Asking what's a good turntable in some ways is asking how long is a piece of string? I digress. Staying with the original post. I say enjoy that Technics, and that record collection, and have a ball. Everyone will tell you how to keep them and all clean, but the main thing is you don't have to buy new if you don't want too. There are gazillion turntables out there if you did want one. No bias from me here. I am a tape guy. Ultimately I want to playback master tapes. Stupid expensive, and its own headaches. It is analog, and no digital fookery. I play digital like everyone else sure. Analog has a charm of its own. Forget right or wrong, and get into the experience if vinyl is your bag.
You can drop some serious coin if you want, or just enjoy that Technics, and collection, and smile, life is good. If I were doing a turntable again, and I didn't want to hassle used, the Fluance tables are pretty cool. But like I said, I have no bias here. I would see how you get along with what you have there with the Technics and your collection. Before you buy anything else.
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Post by 405x5 on May 27, 2023 14:14:48 GMT -5
……. first thing that popped into my head when the prospect of going back to playing records came up!
Stead of spending $5000 on a cartridge. I could set up a contract with one of these guys to do the cleaning for each listening session (come on now I think it’s a good idea?!)  |
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Post by Topend on May 27, 2023 18:09:47 GMT -5
I have a ProJect RPM5 that I purchased on eBay. It came with a red cartridge and speed controller. I can’t remember what I paid but it was a bargain. It also help that I was in the area at the time so I collected it and carried it on my flight home.
I upgraded the cartridge to blue and have been completely happy with it.
I would recommend searching for a used turntable of a brand and model to your liking. You can always sell it if you’re not happy and try something else.
Dave.
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Post by novisnick on May 28, 2023 1:37:47 GMT -5
widespreadpanic and 405x5 , Once upon a time, I too wanted to upgrade my aging technics TT and I allowed the local HiFi shop owner to talk the Mrs into spending more than we were comfortable with. He wasn’t looking to his purse, he was interested in listening to my wants and needs and if I really wanted to make a smart for me purchase. To this day we have become good friends and talk about music a lot. Getting to the point, Im so glad it took his advice a decade ago and purchased the Rega RP6 with an Exact II cartridge. It was above what I was comfortable with spending. Best investment in great sounding music that I’ve ever made, In my opinion of course. There is no better way to get the full body of the music to my ears. I have an above average digital system for when I wish to explore music that has been recommended and don’t have. I also use my streamer for when Im lazy or tired and just want to relax or fall asleep. BUT! When I wish to be fully engulfed in music and it’s expensive I drop a needle and enjoy. No matter how one consumes their music, whether it’s digital or analogue the most important thing to remember is to enjoy 🎶❤️🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶 I totally get this…… Like I said in my original post. I always remember when I would buy a new record being so happy with that pristine copy coming out of the jacket for the first time after that, it was that waiting game for the first scratch pop click or skip it’s just drove me crazy. I am inherently lazy and when I did my maintenance on my record collection which included anti-static jackets that I would replace the originals with …… Then, the Discwasher liquid and applicator. The stylus brush that I used because I didn’t want the potential tracking error involved with the brush that would be attached to the stylus I had a Shibata stylus in my Stanton cartridge 681EEE. The maintenance end of all of this is endless really where you have to be constantly focusing on cleanliness, unless you leave yourself in a very vulnerable position with your collection. I also hate that very limited time. That you can be in the sweet spot without having to do something…… Since you’re limited to a very small timeslot compared to today with music, DVD concerts in a while, and the Blu-ray is absolutely killer. I’m sorry, but I haven’t a clue as to what all the fuss was about your system. I have LP’s that are decades old and sound as though they were just pressed and opened. New LP’s only need a quick trip through the ultrasonic cleaner and a new sleeve, done. Well, almost done! Ha! Ha! At this point I would add a new LP title to my Discogs app. I find it an extremely helpful tool. As far as “the sweet spot”, yep, but thats with any medium. If I’m not intending to get engrossed in the music I’ll stream , especially if I intend to get something around the house done. One look at my signature and your see that I also enjoy 5.1 concerts. HT is sounds and looks great as well. I’m blessed to have access to most mediums in my entertainment room. I’m sorry that you feel there is a lot of maintenance but I just don’t understand, I have no such issues. The only thing that is important when it comes to music is that you enjoy it in the fashion in which you choose to consume it. 🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶 |
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Post by 405x5 on May 28, 2023 7:28:48 GMT -5
I totally get this…… Like I said in my original post. I always remember when I would buy a new record being so happy with that pristine copy coming out of the jacket for the first time after that, it was that waiting game for the first scratch pop click or skip it’s just drove me crazy. I am inherently lazy and when I did my maintenance on my record collection which included anti-static jackets that I would replace the originals with …… Then, the Discwasher liquid and applicator. The stylus brush that I used because I didn’t want the potential tracking error involved with the brush that would be attached to the stylus I had a Shibata stylus in my Stanton cartridge 681EEE. The maintenance end of all of this is endless really where you have to be constantly focusing on cleanliness, unless you leave yourself in a very vulnerable position with your collection. I also hate that very limited time. That you can be in the sweet spot without having to do something…… Since you’re limited to a very small timeslot compared to today with music, DVD concerts in a while, and the Blu-ray is absolutely killer. I’m sorry, but I haven’t a clue as to what all the fuss was about your system. I have LP’s that are decades old and sound as though they were just pressed and opened. New LP’s only need a quick trip through the ultrasonic cleaner and a new sleeve, done. Well, almost done! Ha! Ha! At this point I would add a new LP title to my Discogs app. I find it an extremely helpful tool. As far as “the sweet spot”, yep, but thats with any medium. If I’m not intending to get engrossed in the music I’ll stream , especially if I intend to get something around the house done. One look at my signature and your see that I also enjoy 5.1 concerts. HT is sounds and looks great as well. I’m blessed to have access to most mediums in my entertainment room. I’m sorry that you feel there is a lot of maintenance but I just don’t understand, I have no such issues. The only thing that is important when it comes to music is that you enjoy it in the fashion in which you choose to consume it. 🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶 I think the real answer here is that there are those of us who wish to keep all the mediums intact… Up and running and can go from one to the other, depending on the mood. And then there are those of us who prefer to focus on one medium and let the old stuff go. I am certainly the latter. |
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on May 30, 2023 17:15:42 GMT -5
One thing I would point out is that vinyl has a serious marketing advantage.
You can take the output of your nice turntable, with your favorite cartridge and phono preamp, and convert it into a digital recording.
And, if you do it yourself, you will know that the mastering is exactly the same, and no intentional changes were made.
And you can then listen to both and compare them.
And you will almost certainly notice at least a tiny difference.
At which point a vinyl fan will shout out: "Aha... I knew that digital couldn't sound exactly like analog."
BUT....
You CANNOT do the same in reverse.
Because you can't play a CD, or a digital file, and "cut it onto a vinyl album" in your living room.
Therefore there is no way you can determine how much difference there is between your vinyl copy and your digital original.
And this allows you to continue to avoid realizing how different even the best vinyl album is from the original master tape or file.
And this helps preserve the illusion that the vinyl version is closer to the original.
What has honestly surprised me is that, at least so far, nobody has started a service...
Where they could take your vinyl album, clean it perfectly, play it on a super expensive turntable and cartridge, with an even more expensive phono preamp...
Then preserve all of that "vinyl goodness" in a nice perfect never changing 24/192k digital file...
And they could even carefully edit out the occasional ticks, pops, and distortions that might crop up along the way.
I've seen a few services offering to "digitize your albums for you".
But none of the ones I've seen offer you a choice of what cartridge and preamp you would prefer... or even tell you which one they use.
(The only one I ever tried, exactly once, did a truly awful job - there was actually a track-skip that they neither noticed nor corrected.)
I would also bring up something interesting about the current Mobile Fidelity scandal...
(In case you haven't heard there is now a class action lawsuit based on the fact that the last 125 MoFi albums advertised as "purely analog" were actually produced from DSD file interstage masters.)
What I personally find most entertaining about the entire thing is that, until "the scandal came out", apparently audiophiles thought that all those albums sounded just fine...
(At least until they found out that they'd been pressed from digital masters...)
Please note that I have nothing against people who enjoy the experience of playing vinyl...
Just like mechanical wrist watches, turntables can be cool gadgets, and they do have their charm...
But I do think that a lot more people could afford to enjoy the "analog sound" they like so much if they had the opportunity to purchase it in digital form...
And I'm quite convinced that, if that option was available, most of them would enjoy it just as much, and wouldn't be able to hear any difference...
(Except, of course, for the fact they could afford a lot more of it... )
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Turntables
May 30, 2023 22:35:40 GMT -5
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Post by 405x5 on May 30, 2023 22:35:40 GMT -5
Suddenly this thread had me thinking about the passage of time on this particular subject…… Nothing in the sport of audio made me happier than putting the record player to bed.
The time factor blows me away! Next year (2024) will make it 30 years since I put the record player to rest.
I bought Emotiva‘s XMC1 in 2014, and before I put it into the system, I pulled my ARX a turntable out of mothballs along with about 15 of my favorite record albums, and gave them a spin in my living room one more time. That was a fun afternoon, but no more after that, the XMC replaced a Sunfire Theater Grand 2 which had its own raised phono input. That could handle the turntable so I could have my afternoon with the records.
My last project with records is to split the boxes up so they can be handled easier before I put them out to trash… No bookstore no selling no nothing just a Monday morning pick up by the G-man.
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