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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 10, 2023 16:24:09 GMT -5
...if you're satisfied with 5.1 or 7.1, it will play exactly the same in a system that only supports TrueHD. And, if you like stereo, it will also play just fine in stereo... What you're saying is supposed to be right, but that's NOT how my friends and I have found it to actually work. I said it before - I say it again - discs with Dolby Atmos encoding seem to have REALLY flaky center-channel audio artifacts when rendered in 5.1 / 7.1. These center-channel issues include frequency anomalies, volume anomalies (particularly in relation to other channels), and distortion that makes audibility of dialogue very difficult. These center channel artifacts happen to multiple users, using multiple brands of AVRs, and and using multiple types of disc players. Curiously, when a Dolby Atmos soundtrack is mixed down to stereo, the phantom center image is more clear and articulate than when actually using the center channel speaker (but still not as clear as with non-Dolby-Atmos soundtracks). |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 10, 2023 17:06:38 GMT -5
Interesting.... When you play an Atmos disc on a TrueHD system the AVR should simply be playing the TrueHD core and ignoring the Atmos metadata... And, when it does that, the result should be a perfect TrueHD rendition... And the TrueHD core is supposed to work perfectly, on its own, without the Atmos metadata... (The Atmos metadata is simply "layered" onto the core.) What you're reporting suggests that the TrueHD core is flawed (not mastered exactly right)... (Or that those AVRs are doing something wrong... like applying "adjustments" that they shouldn't be applying to the audio.) Of course a less pleasant thought is that whoever mastered the audio simply mastered it to sound good while monitoring it in Atmos... And neglected to bother to make sure that the core TrueHD stream was OK on its own. (And, if that's what happened, then it's poor implementation, and not a flaw in the system itself.) ...if you're satisfied with 5.1 or 7.1, it will play exactly the same in a system that only supports TrueHD. And, if you like stereo, it will also play just fine in stereo... What you're saying is supposed to be right, but that's NOT how my friends and I have found it to actually work. I said it before - I say it again - discs with Dolby Atmos encoding seem to have REALLY flaky center-channel audio artifacts when rendered in 5.1 / 7.1. These center-channel issues include frequency anomalies, volume anomalies (particularly in relation to other channels), and distortion that makes audibility of dialogue very difficult. These center channel artifacts happen to multiple users, using multiple brands of AVRs, and and using multiple types of disc players. Curiously, when a Dolby Atmos soundtrack is mixed down to stereo, the phantom center image is more clear and articulate than when actually using the center channel speaker (but still not as clear as with non-Dolby-Atmos soundtracks). |
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Post by geebo on Aug 10, 2023 17:10:15 GMT -5
...if you're satisfied with 5.1 or 7.1, it will play exactly the same in a system that only supports TrueHD. And, if you like stereo, it will also play just fine in stereo... What you're saying is supposed to be right, but that's NOT how my friends and I have found it to actually work. I said it before - I say it again - discs with Dolby Atmos encoding seem to have REALLY flaky center-channel audio artifacts when rendered in 5.1 / 7.1. These center-channel issues include frequency anomalies, volume anomalies (particularly in relation to other channels), and distortion that makes audibility of dialogue very difficult. These center channel artifacts happen to multiple users, using multiple brands of AVRs, and and using multiple types of disc players. Curiously, when a Dolby Atmos soundtrack is mixed down to stereo, the phantom center image is more clear and articulate than when actually using the center channel speaker (but still not as clear as with non-Dolby-Atmos soundtracks). I just tried disabling my height speakers and with a Dolby Atmos disc playing in 5.1 surround there is nothing odd going on with the center channel. |
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Post by leonski on Aug 10, 2023 17:35:23 GMT -5
AVR choices DO NOT MATTER. ANYTHING you buy will be obsolete before you can get it home and hooked up. If you like to listen to movies loudly, pick an AVR with sufficient wattage (remembering that any power increase of less than 2x is essentially worthless). Otherwise, save some $$$ and buy the least expensive AVR that meets your requirements. Sound quality differences between AVR brands are virtually non-existant. Buy on price knowing that resale values for more expensive AVRs are no greater than for economy models. A used AVR is a used AVR... The processor / power amplifier option does not make financial sense. Although the power amps won't become obsolete, the processor certainly will (and quickly) and you can buy an AVR with amplifiers built in for significantly less than the cost of a new processor. The resale value of used processors is actually LESS than the resale value of used AVRs. Of course, it's your money and your choice, but I firmly believe what I've stated here. Now let the hate mail begin! Boomzilla (aka Glenn Young) - retired audio reviewer for the Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity website No Hate.......mainly Support. As for AVR power? Most of the amps are just generating heat and taking up space. Seperates, are IMO, the most long-term cost effective. Buying an amp of lasting value with long term support possible and from an upper tier company than combined with a good pre-pro will be a good solution. But YES.....'obsolete in a year' is a real problem in an industry that counts on what I call 'the churn'.... AVR lifecycle is measured in months, not years. The 'churn' is awesome. And some of those proprietary semiconductors get REAL scarce in just a few short years. Fixability is questionable. That' forces either a new sale (cheering from manufacturers) or using a still usable in some fashion device with fewer features.....or capabilities. Amps are another sore point. 120 a side in STEREO will drop to 75 or 80 with 5 channels driven and be nearly incapable of driving a less-than 6 ohm load. Those switches on the back for lower impedance? Protect the amp by truncating the power output. BUY A BETTER AMPLIFIER GOING IN And yes, the 2x rule applies for power. That's gonna get you 3db additional output or headroom. But getting there is half the fun. More sensitive speakers by the SAME 3db would be like buying a more powerful amp.......But finding a set you like as much? That's the rub.... Build quality is the SAME across the line.....Same quality parts. Same build spec. Same tooling. Same people. Same MTBF.....If it comes with a longer warranty, you are paying IN ADVANCE for service you may never need..... |
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Post by codyjenkins on Aug 12, 2023 17:00:13 GMT -5
...We live in a society where we have been convinced that we must always have "the latest and greatest"... Although your statement IS true, it doesn't tell the whole story. In the AV world, new audio and video decoding arrives at a dizzying rate. The available disc space for movies is continuously eaten up with ever more video storage (DVD to Blu-Ray to 4K to...), leaving an ever smaller portion of the available storage to include reverse-compatible audio formatting. Although a processor or AVR may still function, there is absolutely NO guarantee that the latest software will sound right. My friends and I have noticed repeatedly that "Dolby Atmos" soundtracks have terrible playback artifacts on the center (dialogue) channel when played back using older CODECs. So my friends' AVRs and processors still work, but just not quite right. So are the "latest and greatest" demands on hardware created by marketing, or by the demands of software? You can't buy the latest movie with the soundtrack formatted to the CODEC that your older hardware happens to support. And increasingly, there are fewer and fewer audio options on movie discs beyond the "latest and greatest" audio default. Now there ARE several ways to deal with this issue. Disc players that have the latest audio decoding built in are becoming FAR cheaper than buying an AVR or processor with such decoding. One could buy a relatively inexpensive disc player with its own volume control and run the analog (already decoded) outputs either into the AVR/processor or directly into the power amps. No volume control on the disc player? You'll need full analog (5.1, 7.1, etc.) inputs into the AVR or processor. But "offloading" audio processing to the disc player could, at least theoretically, save a LOT of money by extending the utility of the AVR or processor. IIRC, DVDs are still the top selling physical media, and more movies are released on this format than Blu-Ray. Their audio codecs max out at lossy DD or DTS 5.1 or 7.1. So any 20 plus year old AVR is all that is needed. Blu-Ray discs mainly come with lossless DTS-MA or Dolby True HD. Lossless Dolby Atmos (a type of Dolby True HD) and DTS-X are mainly used on 4K Blu-Ray discs. Both types of Blu-Ray discs may include lossy codecs as well. Streaming is lossy Atmos. Point being, you can get most any movie in whatever audio codec your hardware fully supports. As you said, the player or receiver can decode or down covert the options if needed. If someone has a DVD player connected to a 1080p or 4k display and is complaining about audio, they should be thinking about the more obvious problem they have. I have an Onkyo Integra (both names on the AVR) TX-DS838 purchased in 1996-97 that supports AC-3, no mention of DD, still in use on my 3rd system which plays back any codec from any disc or streaming format in 5.1 without issue and far from obsolete since I can live with the shortcomings where its used. |
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Post by codyjenkins on Aug 12, 2023 17:03:44 GMT -5
...if you're satisfied with 5.1 or 7.1, it will play exactly the same in a system that only supports TrueHD. And, if you like stereo, it will also play just fine in stereo... What you're saying is supposed to be right, but that's NOT how my friends and I have found it to actually work. I said it before - I say it again - discs with Dolby Atmos encoding seem to have REALLY flaky center-channel audio artifacts when rendered in 5.1 / 7.1. These center-channel issues include frequency anomalies, volume anomalies (particularly in relation to other channels), and distortion that makes audibility of dialogue very difficult. These center channel artifacts happen to multiple users, using multiple brands of AVRs, and and using multiple types of disc players. Curiously, when a Dolby Atmos soundtrack is mixed down to stereo, the phantom center image is more clear and articulate than when actually using the center channel speaker (but still not as clear as with non-Dolby-Atmos soundtracks). This is wrong. Must be their system or certain discs. Examples please.. All atmos, disc or streaming, has always played properly on my 7.1 system. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 12, 2023 19:24:06 GMT -5
IIRC, DVDs are still the top selling physical media, and more movies are released on this format than Blu-Ray... Maybe so, but the latest, newest blockbusters are released in 4K with Doby Atmos soundtracks. Depending on popularity, the Blu-Ray will be available later, and only afterward, the DVD. |
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Post by codyjenkins on Aug 12, 2023 20:28:32 GMT -5
IIRC, DVDs are still the top selling physical media, and more movies are released on this format than Blu-Ray... Maybe so, but the latest, newest blockbusters are released in 4K with Doby Atmos soundtracks. Depending on popularity, the Blu-Ray will be available later, and only afterward, the DVD. Again wrong. DVD first. Possibly 4k disc later. Maybee at the same time. Streaming may be opposite. Explained this in prior post. DVD is still most popular physical media sold today and all movies are released in this format. Not so with 4k. Again, please provide which discs, streams, or systems supposedly do not render 5.1 or 7.1 sound derived from atmos, which is just a form of (True HD) correctly. A few have posted there is no issue. Always respected your reviews, but think some more personal experience with surround would be helpful. |
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Post by quattroll2 on Aug 12, 2023 21:09:42 GMT -5
Hi Lounge,
I have been enjoying this thread as I agree with most of the ideas here, from the awesomeness of the full bore latest systems to the sticker shock horror of what they cost and all the various levels in between.
I am strictly a 5.1 guy with no desire to improve things. My room barely handles my surround speakers and there is only one seat where they are reasonably balanced. Still, I enjoy them though I am only using AppleTV and FireStick for content. When I check the feed (XMC-1) it usually says DD 2.0. Does this mean that virtually any receiver from HDMI 2.0 4K will do what I need? To that end I was thinking about picking up a Marantz SR5011 for cheap locally to have something to use if the XMC-1 goes down. It has full preouts (only rca) and a trigger to get everything going. Aside from the pretty great stereo of the XMC-1, I’d barely miss a beat. If that happens I’ll probably add a XDA-3 and that $700 will seem cheap.
I think this is correct, please chime in if there’s anything I’m missing with this basic setup.
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Post by geebo on Aug 12, 2023 21:18:08 GMT -5
IIRC, DVDs are still the top selling physical media, and more movies are released on this format than Blu-Ray... Maybe so, but the latest, newest blockbusters are released in 4K with Doby Atmos soundtracks. Depending on popularity, the Blu-Ray will be available later, and only afterward, the DVD. Not sure where you came up with that. I just looked at some scheduled disc release dates. Fast X, Guardians of the Galaxy 3, About my Father, Nefarious, You Hurt My Feelings, The Blackening, The Little Mermaid, The Flash, Transformers: Rise of the Beasts and The Pope's Exorcist all have Blu Ray and DVD releases on the same day and those released in 4K are also released on that same day. Many include two or three discs in the same package on that same release date. I'm not aware of any movie that was released in 4K ahead of BD or DVD. |
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Aug 13, 2023 3:01:02 GMT -5
IIRC, DVDs are still the top selling physical media, and more movies are released on this format than Blu-Ray... Maybe so, but the latest, newest blockbusters are released in 4K with Doby Atmos soundtracks. Depending on popularity, the Blu-Ray will be available later, and only afterward, the DVD. I’ve seen where there may be a re-issue of some movies for whatever reason a year later or so, but I’ve not ever seen any particular movie release of the different physical media types to be released on different dates. For that matter most of the 4K UHD-bluray movies I buy, also come with the blu-ray as well, on occasion by itself some times. |
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Aug 13, 2023 8:28:13 GMT -5
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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 13, 2023 14:36:42 GMT -5
I was misinformed about release dates - apologies.
Sources for claims that center channel (physical or phantom) misbehaves with Dolby Atmos soundtracks (not a scientific sample):
Audio amigo Walter with a Denon AVR
Audio amigo Cory with a Yamaha AVR
Personal experience with an (older) Integra AVR
Personal experience with mix down to stereo
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Post by geebo on Aug 13, 2023 14:44:04 GMT -5
I was misinformed about release dates - apologies. Sources for claims that center channel (physical or phantom) misbehaves with Dolby Atmos soundtracks (not a scientific sample): Audio amigo Walter with a Denon AVR Audio amigo Cory with a Yamaha AVR Personal experience with an (older) Integra AVR Personal experience with mix down to stereo Sounds like a problem with the processors and poor decoding perhaps. Never experienced it with the RMC-1L. Any specific movies you can think of so I or someone else here could try? |
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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 13, 2023 14:50:25 GMT -5
I didn't write them down, but I will going forward.
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Post by squirrel010 on Aug 24, 2023 13:18:12 GMT -5
I can answer your question... And the answer is that... it depends... I obviously talk to a lot of people who have home theater systems... I am quite convinced that some people actually do notice things like the extra detail and more precise object localization you get with Dolby Atmos... And some people really do just seem to get personal satisfaction from knowing that they have the latest and greatest technology... Or they just like to impress their friends... or their kids... or the other guys on their favorite audio forum... And some people don't care much either way... And at least a few honestly don't hear the difference or hear it but it doesn't matter to them one way or the other... You also have the little matter of content... I saw Oppenheimer last week and, while the movie was great, I didn't think it got much benefit from Atmos... (I would have enjoyed it just as much in 5.1 or 7.1 .) But I've seen other movies where it seemed to make a significant difference... I've also seen movies where an excessively detailed and complex sound track was more of a distraction than an asset... (I'm old enough to remember a few stereo recordings with exaggerated "ping pong stereo effects" that were just plain annoying.) And I've seen lots of movies where I thought that better object localization could have made a huge difference... but the movie failed miserably to take advantage of it... (And we can hope that how well movies take advantage of the capabilities will continue to improve as time goes on.) Of course companies are in business to make money... One way to do that is to sell people replacements for products that wear out... Another way is to offer new products that actually work better than the ones they potentially replace... And, yes, another way is just to convince people that a new product will make them happy... Or even just convince them to be dissatisfied with the one they have now and to hope that they'll like a new one better.) MOST people I know bought their current 4k or 8k TV because it was bigger, or got a better picture, than the set it replaced... Only a few of them actually bought their current 4k or 8k TV because their old TV actually quit working. (And most people I know actually do find their new TV to be an improvement.) Well it seems that "42" isn't the only answer to everything. We have to include "it depends" as well.  But I agree. Everyone's tastes and preferences are different, no one size fits all. It just comes to a point of what the incremental rewards are. The old addage is still true today; Different strokes for different folks is what makes the world go 'round. |
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Post by leonski on Aug 24, 2023 15:16:11 GMT -5
Planned Obsolescence is the watchword of modern manufacture and marketing.
If people wern't worried about 500hp or 0->60 in 3 seconds, a car could be made which would go 250,000 miles
with normal oil changes and other maintenance.....My '83 Accord went over 200K before I sold it and it was FINE except for
the crash damage caused by Ace Abrams.....a real JERK.
TVs continue to get cheaper / better. My LG OLED.....a B6 from 2016 is still fine and produces a picture which impresses.....
Even a non-TV type noted the off-angle quality of the image. But I'm considering the new C3 model which INFLATION
ADJUSTED is at least 1/3 less costly. 20% fewer dollars THAN figure inflation.......
Planned Obsolescence is the #1 reason I hate modern HT and the associated gear. The receiver is especially wasteful, being essentially
UNFixable after just a few years with no more supply of some of the proprietary / dedicated semiconductors.....'chips', if you will......
I've found that a pair of BETTER speakers will usually beat (FOR ME....in my Awful Room) most HT speaker setups I could ever imagine affording....
'The Churn' is wasteful and can be an extravagant expense.....
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 24, 2023 16:42:56 GMT -5
But, without all that churn, and stuff wearing out or becoming obsolete, how would we fuel an ever-increasing economy? (After all, if nobody bought a new TV for a year or two, what would all those TV manufacturers have to sell... ) And, to some degree, we manufacturers are caught in the middle of it all... For example, we can't keep making and selling 5.1 and 7.1 channel processors and receivers, when all of our customers "just gotta have Atmos"... (And, to ben quite blunt, if we aren't making those 5.1 and 7.1 processors any more, then the chip makers aren't going to keep making the chips that go into them either...) The advertising may, to some extent, drive the market... But the market, in turn, drives the manufacturers... And we, in turn, drive the parts manufacturers... Planned Obsolescence is the watchword of modern manufacture and marketing. If people wern't worried about 500hp or 0->60 in 3 seconds, a car could be made which would go 250,000 miles with normal oil changes and other maintenance.....My '83 Accord went over 200K before I sold it and it was FINE except for the crash damage caused by Ace Abrams.....a real JERK. TVs continue to get cheaper / better. My LG OLED.....a B6 from 2016 is still fine and produces a picture which impresses..... Even a non-TV type noted the off-angle quality of the image. But I'm considering the new C3 model which INFLATION ADJUSTED is at least 1/3 less costly. 20% fewer dollars THAN figure inflation....... Planned Obsolescence is the #1 reason I hate modern HT and the associated gear. The receiver is especially wasteful, being essentially UNFixable after just a few years with no more supply of some of the proprietary / dedicated semiconductors.....'chips', if you will...... I've found that a pair of BETTER speakers will usually beat (FOR ME....in my Awful Room) most HT speaker setups I could ever imagine affording.... 'The Churn' is wasteful and can be an extravagant expense..... |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 24, 2023 18:21:51 GMT -5
I didn't write them down, but I will going forward. Also whether disc or streamed, and what CODEC was being used for playback — you’ve said the source has an “Atmos soundtrack”, but not how the non-Atmos system dealt with it — if we’re going to science the hell out of this thing we need accurate data! I also don’t see this ‘churn’ you claim is keeping us all from enjoying anything. My HT system is based on technology well over five years old (and the components are at least that age). There is nothing in my library, nor the streaming sources I use, that have anything I can’t play (and enjoy). Granted, there are gamers who want newer HDMI, and some who want 8K for … 🤷♂️, but when it comes to what media is available to consume, I can play it on my ‘middle aged’ system. |
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Post by leonski on Aug 24, 2023 18:51:09 GMT -5
Audio?
As long as everything KEEPS WORKING you are golden.....especially if happy with your current system.
I mean? Could I deal with the 20.1 Magnepan? I'd guess YES, in a heartbeat!
Oppo may support your '203 for a couple more years.
The glitch may come IF something needs service and you have unavailable chips.....Most of my gear is NON-proprietary except maybe
for the DAC section of my Stereo Preamp.....a Parasound P5 or whatever.....About a decade old, as are my amps with speakers being older yet.....
If my small dish receiver crapped out? who Cares. It is a disposible item and at least 7 or 8 years old......certainly near design lifetime.
And by George! by any and ALL means! 'Let's science the hell out of it'........We need MTBF data for all the crap coming out of Japan....or wherever.....
churn does NOT prevent. but rather plants the 'seed of doubt' among those less knowledable that 'What I have is NOT state of the art'.......
and therefore the urge to keep up with the neighbor who has a lot more time and money than YOU do to pursue this nuttiness.....
And since it isn't fixable past just a few years? Keeps 'em coming back for more.....
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