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Post by dkaudio on Aug 10, 2023 11:32:39 GMT -5
Hi,
I have a PT1 and an XPA-2 for my stereo listening area. I also have a passive Legacy sub (dual 12) and QSC amp to power them. When I use the 90hz LPF, I can totally localize the bass, I feel that crossover is way too high. In addition, my fronts are Dahlquist DQ-10's, and feel they can drop way lower than 90 and actually do quite well in the 70-90hz range. I was pretty disappointed to see no adjustable output crossover settings in the menu. Is it true I am stuck with 90hz HPF and LPF for full range only?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2024 18:18:02 GMT -5
Maybe someone from EMO can chime in, but I think you are stuck with 90hz. I honestly don't understand why they did that. I'm rocking an older USP-1. Still using that as my preamp/phono and went with a Cambridge network streamer/DAC to modernize everything. I have my mains and subs crossed at 60hz. That came with a wide adjustable crossover and I don't understand why they didn't continue that option.
I'm not sure I can find a modern source, but I think Dolby way back in the day said that 100hz down should be unlocalized. THX seemed to want 80hz. Either way, if you can hear the sub, it is either not in the right place, or it is boosted too much. A balanced sub should be invisible. You can get a over boost from corner loading, or just because it is turned up too much.
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 26, 2024 19:13:27 GMT -5
You could use an external crossover? |
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Post by marcl on Apr 26, 2024 20:08:09 GMT -5
You could use an external crossover? Wow ... I bought that Crown crossover in 1977 to bi-amp my Magnepan Tympani 1D ! |
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 26, 2024 20:27:44 GMT -5
I’ve owned and used all of those crossovers except the Rolls. In terms of performance, I’d rate the Dahlquist the best, but they’re getting hard to find in good shape, and the components are no longer made, If yours breaks, it’s probably a throw-away.
The JL-Audio is second-best and it has balanced outputs, but it costs $3,000 used (if you’re lucky).
The Crown is third (and can be modified/tweaked). It’s also reasonably priced.
I don’t know anything about the Rolls.
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Apr 26, 2024 20:36:00 GMT -5
There's also this one from Wilson Audio. It's priced not a whole lot more than the JL Audio XO.  |
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Post by markc on Apr 27, 2024 4:22:13 GMT -5
Whilst user-adjustable crossovers are definitely the way to go, this is a low range product and Emotiva will have had to make a design decision at each cost-control point and it's not unreasonable that this is such a low end pre-amplifier that it would most likely be used with less than capable loudspeakers or with non-audiophiles who may not notice.
In a system, it is a bigger error to have a crossover set lower than a main speaker can handle. Note that many bookshelf speakers optimally require a crossover of 100Hz, with Dolby Digital specifications even allowing for a crossover of up to 150Hz given the type of surround sound speakers users were adding to systems back in the day.
The PT2 would have been the better model to have gone with if you wanted a configurable crossover. (However, that is $600 vs $400 for the PT1)
To be fair to Emotiva, the 90Hz crossover is highly visible and repeatedly mentioned on the product pages and would have been an immediate red flag to me.
I prefer a crossover of 70Hz with my system but find 80Hz tolerable - I can still detect the subwoofer direction at 80Hz sometimes (maybe not helped by my high frequency hearing loss).
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Post by marcl on Apr 27, 2024 5:18:31 GMT -5
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Apr 27, 2024 7:05:23 GMT -5
So, you have an XMC-2+XO! |
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Post by marcl on Apr 27, 2024 7:16:08 GMT -5
So, you have an XMC-2+XO! = [(2X)MCO]-2 Or to be more specific ...  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2024 9:40:30 GMT -5
Whilst user-adjustable crossovers are definitely the way to go, this is a low range product and Emotiva will have had to make a design decision at each cost-control point and it's not unreasonable that this is such a low end pre-amplifier that it would most likely be used with less than capable loudspeakers or with non-audiophiles who may not notice. In a system, it is a bigger error to have a crossover set lower than a main speaker can handle. Note that many bookshelf speakers optimally require a crossover of 100Hz, with Dolby Digital specifications even allowing for a crossover of up to 150Hz given the type of surround sound speakers users were adding to systems back in the day. The PT2 would have been the better model to have gone with if you wanted a configurable crossover. (However, that is $600 vs $400 for the PT1) To be fair to Emotiva, the 90Hz crossover is highly visible and repeatedly mentioned on the product pages and would have been an immediate red flag to me. I prefer a crossover of 70Hz with my system but find 80Hz tolerable - I can still detect the subwoofer direction at 80Hz sometimes (maybe not helped by my high frequency hearing loss). I agree that the fixed crossover is in plane view in the specs and obvious to me. Regarding price and features. The new WIIM amp has an adjustable sub crossover from 30-200hz via a phone app. I feel they missed the mark on not making it a option to only use that as a preamp, because it would likely be a great budget preamp, but as of now, is a amp and the the cheaper style class D amp is known to have shortages, so I personally wouldn't get one. A fixed crossover would be a deal breaker for me as well. Having a wider adjustable crossover is the single main reason I've kept the old USP-1 around, and why I went with an external streamer/DAC. |
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Post by PaulBe on Apr 28, 2024 8:24:23 GMT -5
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Apr 29, 2024 11:58:34 GMT -5
The crossover filters in the PT1 are "based on fixed hardware components" and are not configurable from the menu. I'm not quite sure why we chose 90 Hz on the PT1 rather than 80 Hz. However, while 80 Hz is probably more common, you will find fixed crossovers anywhere between 80 Hz and 100 Hz commonly used with subwoofers. And, in fact, many systems that include smaller main speakers will choose 100 Hz, to reduce the demands on the "satellites". (I'm guessing that our engineers "split the difference" between those two.) (We wouldn't use a fixed crossover below 80 Hz because that would not work well in most normal situations.) Something else worth noting is that the fact that the subwoofer is localizable IN YOUR PARTICULAR SITUATION is due to a combination of several factors. And, yes, being able to select a much lower crossover frequency would probably prevent this. However, the difference between 80 Hz and 90 Hz would actually be negligible... (There is normally considerable overlap between the main speakers and the sub and room acoustics also have a major effect on how they interact as well.) And, as someone else already noted, a fully variable-frequency crossover is "a more high end feature", which you do get on our PT2 and TA2. As someone else suggested you could try a separate external crossover. Another alternative would be to ALSO use the low-pass filter in your subwoofer - if it has that option - in addition to the filter in the PT1. You can make the low-pass cutoff SHARPER by setting the sub's filter to somewhere between 75 and 120 Hz and using it IN ADDITION TO the filter on the PT1. (You do not want to set it below that because you would risk creating a significant dip around 90 Hz.) We normally would not recommend this, both because it is normally unnecessary, and because you could end up with unexpected consequences (like a dip or bump around 90 Hz). However, if you're willing to put in some effort into "tuning the results by ear", you can certainly do this, and it will create a sharper low-pass filter for the sub. (It is the sharpness of the low-pass filter that affects the sub being able to be localized; the high-pass section has little or no effect on that.) Hi, I have a PT1 and an XPA-2 for my stereo listening area. I also have a passive Legacy sub (dual 12) and QSC amp to power them. When I use the 90hz LPF, I can totally localize the bass, I feel that crossover is way too high. In addition, my fronts are Dahlquist DQ-10's, and feel they can drop way lower than 90 and actually do quite well in the 70-90hz range. I was pretty disappointed to see no adjustable output crossover settings in the menu. Is it true I am stuck with 90hz HPF and LPF for full range only? |
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Post by leonski on May 7, 2024 2:39:32 GMT -5
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Post by markc on May 7, 2024 5:14:15 GMT -5
*cough* At $1900+, that is a ridiculous proposition as an add on for a bargain basement stereo pre-amp!  Much better would be to buy a unit that fulfilled all requirements (and has all features working (!)) in the first place, or even now as a secondary step. Sell the not-up-to-scratch item, even for a loss, and buy something that fulfils all needs. Unlike this dilemma we have with the G3P, in the market of 2 channel pre-amps, there is a lot of choice for similar money, so the OP need not be as saddled with deficiencies as we are. |
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Post by lhracing on May 7, 2024 8:30:56 GMT -5
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Post by AudioHTIT on May 7, 2024 8:48:38 GMT -5
Wow ... I bought that Crown crossover in 1977 to bi-amp my Magnepan Tympani 1D ! Ha! I had Tymp 1Ds about the same time, loved them, used a crossover Nelson Pass made for me. |
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on May 7, 2024 9:53:38 GMT -5
If you want to try an external, line level, passive crossover... The same company that makes those makes a passive crossover with both high-pass and low-pass sections in one unit... And you can select both the high-pass and low-pass frequencies, from among several options for each, using jumpers... There are different versions that offer high-pass only, low-pass only, or both in a single unit. The full two-way version is still only $49 www.hlabs.com/products/crossovers/index_files/Page384.htm |
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Post by leonski on May 7, 2024 12:35:07 GMT -5
*cough* At $1900+, that is a ridiculous proposition as an add on for a bargain basement stereo pre-amp! Much better would be to buy a unit that fulfilled all requirements (and has all features working (!)) in the first place, or even now as a secondary step. Sell the not-up-to-scratch item, even for a loss, and buy something that fulfils all needs. Unlike this dilemma we have with the G3P, in the market of 2 channel pre-amps, there is a lot of choice for similar money, so the OP need not be as saddled with deficiencies as we are. My PARASOUND P5 has a variable and switchable crossover. I send the full range signal TO my sub and use ITS crossover while doing a low-cut to my mains....... I have the option of single ended OR XLR outs. These are available on the 'used' market for excellent prices. IF you want a small display? Parasound upgraded to the P6 which is otherwise nearly identical..... I just looked at some 'used' sites and the supply is abundent with 'ask' hovering around 750$ +-100$ Black or Silver faceplate.... Even one selling in combination with an A23 power amp of 125x2 (8ohms) which is plenty of juice for many systems....... |
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