XMC-2/eArc Upgrade path - Early Adopters pay $950 premium!!

[simons]

The nub of this post is to point out that it seem that Emotiva has limited intention of supporting early adopters, and buyer beware!

I have owned an XMC-2 since the early days, and paid $2,999.00 (-$400 trade-in) back in the day, a new owner now pays $2,499.00.

Dirac - which we got, and an HDMI upgrade (to include eARC) were both committed to as part of the initial purchase offering.

Apparently owners since November 2021 have models that include an HDMI card that support eARC with the latest firmware for "free".

Early adopter have to now purchase an upgrade board for $450 to attain the same capability. This mean that Earl adopters have paid $950 premium to have a comparable product with owners of the same product since November 2021. 

Without Early Adopters where would Emotiva be with is processors?  This seems to be objectively unfair, and should have future early adopters think twice about what they might miss out on as Emotiva evolves their product line.

On July 4th 2023 I opened an email thread with [e-mail] pointing this out and asking them to clarify that this is their intent, and indicated in the lack of a reasonable reply I'd post my concerns here. I'd go so far now that I'd possibly consider tweeting this out too.  

I receive an automated response with the following case number #385806733.

A "Jessica Laufman" replied to my enquiry after the long weekend on the 7th July to say: "I got your email and will respond after I speak with Dan and the team early next week.".

I followed up on July 11th, and July 19th, and again on August 9th with no reply! That was over a month to get "Dan and the team" to reply. Nothing!

I for sure don't feel like a valued customer. I have also purchased other Emotive product and accessories. I also for sure will be reluctant to recommend Emotiva to other if they can not even followup on my inquiry. 

In an ideal world I'd like to send my current XMC-2 in for "repair" and get a replacement with the HDMI card new owner get as standard.  

All you Early Adopts out there - have you just paid the $450 for the upgrade? Or do you equally feel aggrieved?

[geebo]

Sept 10, 2023 16:04:04 GMT -5 simons said:

The nub of this post is to point out that it seem that Emotiva has limited intention of supporting early adopters, and buyer beware!

I have owned an XMC-2 since the early days, and paid $2,999.00 (-$400 trade-in) back in the day, a new owner now pays $2,499.00.

Dirac - which we got, and an HDMI upgrade (to include eARC) were both committed to as part of the initial purchase offering.

Apparently owners since November 2021 have models that include an HDMI card that support eARC with the latest firmware for "free".

Early adopter have to now purchase an upgrade board for $450 to attain the same capability. This mean that Earl adopters have paid $950 premium to have a comparable product with owners of the same product since November 2021. 

Without Early Adopters where would Emotiva be with is processors?  This seems to be objectively unfair, and should have future early adopters think twice about what they might miss out on as Emotiva evolves their product line.

On July 4th 2023 I opened an email thread with [e-mail] pointing this out and asking them to clarify that this is their intent, and indicated in the lack of a reasonable reply I'd post my concerns here. I'd go so far now that I'd possibly consider tweeting this out too.  

I receive an automated response with the following case number #385806733.

A "Jessica Laufman" replied to my enquiry after the long weekend on the 7th July to say: "I got your email and will respond after I speak with Dan and the team early next week.".

I followed up on July 11th, and July 19th, and again on August 9th with no reply! That was over a month to get "Dan and the team" to reply. Nothing!

I for sure don't feel like a valued customer. I have also purchased other Emotive product and accessories. I also for sure will be reluctant to recommend Emotiva to other if they can not even followup on my inquiry. 

In an ideal world I'd like to send my current XMC-2 in for "repair" and get a replacement with the HDMI card new owner get as standard.  

All you Early Adopts out there - have you just paid the $450 for the upgrade? Or do you equally feel aggrieved?

It's the price of having a product earlier. It's the same as if you buy a new model TV when first available or save hundreds by waiting a year to purchase. The "early adopters" pay more to have it sooner. Improvements are made to many products during their lifespan with no upgrade possibilities. What other AV processors offer HDMI hardware upgrades and are they free?
"Early adopters" don't buy early because they are eager to do the company a favor. They buy early because they want the product now.

[ttocs]

I bought an 85" tv for $4500. 9 months later it was being sold for $3000. A few months later it was $2500.
I bought a Pioneer Elite processor for $1500. A year later if was half the price.
I bought Martin Logan speakers for $2200 that were more than double the price a year before.
I ordered a car when first available for sale and got a very slight discount, but if I had waited almost a year it would've been thousands less.

[AudioHTIT]

Sept 10, 2023 16:04:04 GMT -5 simons said:

…
All you Early Adopts out there - have you just paid the $450 for the upgrade? Or do you equally feel aggrieved?

The others have clarified what being an early adopter means. From Emotiva’s side, for either $699 or $1099 (unclear on your discount), you will get an entirely new processor with far more than eARC, though they offered the eARC upgrade for those who need that feature now (I don’t). Methinks thou doth protest too much (paraphrased), translation, I don’t feel aggrieved.

[rbk123]

The only beef I could see you having is if they promised something at release to be included and then made you actually pay for it later, but I don’t believe that is your case after reading your post.

[doc1963]

I would agree with everyone else that has posted. Those of us in the "I want it now" crowd (the early adopters) always pay the premium price. Those who wait (and in this case... have waited several years) always benefit from eventual reduced pricing... no matter how it comes to them.

I would assume that Emotiva's recent price reduction of the G3 processors was done as a means to clear out current parts and existing inventory to make way for the upcoming G4 processors. I can't fault them for that...

Those who own older G3's and do want eARC, but don't necessarily want or need to upgrade to one of the G4 processors, now have a viable path for them to do so. $450 might seem a little steep to some, but don't forget that this price includes your shipping costs to send your processor back to Emotiva. They will install the upgraded board, update the firmware, run a series of AP tests to ensure that your processor meets factory specs and is running exactly as it should. Then, they will ship it back to you. So, that $450 price is all inclusive for those who want to take this path.

Those of us who'd rather wait and fully upgrade our older G3's to the new G4 will still get eARC (as well as support for 8K and a bunch of other nice things) and can forego the cost of that 4K/eARC standalone upgrade entirely as we don't "need" to do this. The only premium involved here is time and a bit of patience.

So to be a G3 early adopter who will choose to upgrade, we have indeed paid a premium over those who are currently getting the same processor (and with eARC already included). But the only "premium" we've paid is $500 over the current reduced pricing and the loss of eARC over the years. I think most of us understand and are okay with that.

[webmst007]

I understand your frustrations with eARC and HDMI in general.
However there are ways to mitigate or workaround some or all of your issues with the gen3 gear.
A HDFury unit for around $300 or so ( new or second hand) will switch 4 sources to 2 output devices ( a projector or tv) and a processor for audio only. This avoids a lot of the HDMI switch issues and for a relatively small investment you workaround your frustrations.
Switching is then just managed on the hdfury Vortex or VVroom using an app on your mobile.
I know this is not ideal or desirable but it provides a cheap effective solution until G4P arrives.
Then you can stop the fustrations and anger and just enjoy your system.

[KeithL]

I just figured I'd weigh in on this with a few... observations.

First of all I'll offer a bit of a mea culpa on the subject of responding to questions about policy...
In general, if you ask a specific question about a product, we're going to have an answer for you...
However, when it comes to "questions about policy", there may not always be a simple answer...
And, sometimes, it may be something we just plain haven't thought about yet...
And, sometimes, in that case, actually coming up with an answer, and sending out a reply, "falls through the cracks".

Now, to be more specific about eARC...

When both products were released neither the XMC-2 nor the RMC-1 supported eARC.
Several years into production, due to certain parts becoming unavailable, we changed the hardware on the HDMI board.
And, because the change involved selecting newer parts, the new switches we used were internally able to support eARC.
(Note that, at the point we started shipping those boards, eARC did not work, because the current firmware did not support it.)
Then, almost a year and a half later, due to several major updates to the firmware, we were able to enable support for eARC on those boards.
And, when we rolled that out, many customers who had purchased their XMC-2 or RMC-1 processor after a certain date, received a "gift" in the form of eARC support.
Nobody who had the original HDMI board "was penalized"... because none of them had paid for the eARC feature to begin with.

We could have simply disabled eARC support in the firmware for existing units...
Or we could have only enabled it on new units (maybe as a new model)...
Or we could have used licensing to offer it as a "premium feature upgrade" on units that had the hardware that supported it...
But, instead, we enabled it as a free new feature, on all new units, and on existing units that already have the hardware that supports it.

Also note that the new "big G4 upgrade" coming around the end of the year includes lots of new features...
To be quite candid, we expect a lot of people to opt for that upgrade, which includes eARC as well as lots of other HDMI 2.1 stuff (like 8k)...
But we really didn't expect that many people to want JUST eARC badly enough to buy an upgrade board if they didn't already have the board that supports it.
(We're NOT trying to sell you an eARC enabled HDMI  board; we really do recommend that you wait for the full upgrade.)

As for "early adopters being penalized"...
Do you own a car?
How about a TV?
If so I promise you that you "paid a penalty as an early adopter" when you bought it.
You could have bought a newer model, with better features, and probably a lower price tag, a year after you bought the one you have.
Or you could have bought the one you have, a year later, on sale, as "last years model closeout".
(But I hope that getting to use it, and enjoy it, for that year, more than made up for that extra cost.)

I should also point out that, if you really want to be a "late adopter", a lot of people got a sweet deal on a Certified Renewed XMC-1 when the new processors were released...
(And we have a big new update coming out shortly.)

Sept 10, 2023 16:04:04 GMT -5 simons said:

The nub of this post is to point out that it seem that Emotiva has limited intention of supporting early adopters, and buyer beware!

I have owned an XMC-2 since the early days, and paid $2,999.00 (-$400 trade-in) back in the day, a new owner now pays $2,499.00.

Dirac - which we got, and an HDMI upgrade (to include eARC) were both committed to as part of the initial purchase offering.

Apparently owners since November 2021 have models that include an HDMI card that support eARC with the latest firmware for "free".

Early adopter have to now purchase an upgrade board for $450 to attain the same capability. This mean that Earl adopters have paid $950 premium to have a comparable product with owners of the same product since November 2021. 

Without Early Adopters where would Emotiva be with is processors?  This seems to be objectively unfair, and should have future early adopters think twice about what they might miss out on as Emotiva evolves their product line.

On July 4th 2023 I opened an email thread with [e-mail] pointing this out and asking them to clarify that this is their intent, and indicated in the lack of a reasonable reply I'd post my concerns here. I'd go so far now that I'd possibly consider tweeting this out too.  

I receive an automated response with the following case number #385806733.

A "Jessica Laufman" replied to my enquiry after the long weekend on the 7th July to say: "I got your email and will respond after I speak with Dan and the team early next week.".

I followed up on July 11th, and July 19th, and again on August 9th with no reply! That was over a month to get "Dan and the team" to reply. Nothing!

I for sure don't feel like a valued customer. I have also purchased other Emotive product and accessories. I also for sure will be reluctant to recommend Emotiva to other if they can not even followup on my inquiry. 

In an ideal world I'd like to send my current XMC-2 in for "repair" and get a replacement with the HDMI card new owner get as standard.  

All you Early Adopts out there - have you just paid the $450 for the upgrade? Or do you equally feel aggrieved?

[simons]

Thanks all for your replies, and KeithL  for the Emotiva perspective.

TBH I'm more aggrieved that the promise of an email reply to my inquiry never came - despite multiple followups - What Keith said, could have been sent to me weeks ago. That worries me in terms of how much the customer relationship really matters to Emotiva. In this day and age I'd have expected better. It clouds my judgement on if I'd ever double down on a G4. We as customers need to know that Emotiva does care given a not insignificant investment - and that includes being listened and replied  to. 

In terms of the HDMI Upgrade:

• Per my initial comments, this update was at one point on the list along side Dirac (which we got), and was at one point also pitched as a self-install. So the expectation was when I purchased the XMC-2 was that would be include when ready. It was a deciding factor vs. alternatives for me. Since I've learned how one needs to be very patient with Emotiva...
  
• Per the reply from doc1963 - this is the most considered response. Thanks for your thoughts and perspective - as you say - given the shipping costs etc. and essentially a refurb'd model there is some value here. 
• I'd not want to add more components (HDFury) per webmst007 - but thanks for the thought! In my mind more complexity is more to go wrong, and for $300 or so I might as well do the upgrade and it's in the box so as to speak.
• My issues right now is that I need eArc, and am over invested. My rack is ~50' from the screen, & sitting position (building architectural issue - and required design aesthetic to have such a setup), and it's on the edge of the ATV's remote connectivity range - as such I get a very laggy UX navigation experience. Having eArc allows me to put the ATV behind the TV, and get all the Dolby Atmos sound back to the XMC-2 - I have a fiber HDMI 2.1 connection that supports eArc.
  
• Judgements above aside - however, I see that one could await the G4 upgrade for $699 for those early adopters. If one can wait til the G4 ships....then this is probably a better path, but dealing with my laggy ATV navigation experience til what is seeming like sometime 2024... 

Net-net yes its $450 for the need to have a processor when there were few options at the time of purchase.  Albeit at this point I'd take an updated refurb exchange as a preference if offered - especial if I can put a deposit down to get a replacement shipped out before a return, and get my existing warranty.

In terms the wait for the G4 Upgrade:

• 8k - we are a very long way from any ubiquitous 8k content or affordable (over 77") displays that would benefit from such a capability - One can only assume there will be a G5 or even a G6 by then - but perhaps not even a G4...?
  
• Dirac - last I looked this was not in the mix but maybe now. I don't see it listed here, and it's not mentioned as included I the G3. I'm not good at trawling 50 page forums, why Emotiva, not update the linked page - as the feature set solidifies?
• eArc - this is immediately useful.
• I don't have a full 16 channel setup so at some point Enhanced Atmos Digital etc. is diminishing returns. 
• I already have a high end streaming solution.
• Once configured how much do we need a "web enabled" setup and control system. It's more utilitarian once set up.
• So when is the "real" release date - and will prior original owners get an upgrade priority?

So a question back to KeithL - if one was to alleviate the short term pain and spend another $450 on the HDMI upgrade - would that be offset, in whole or part, against the future upgrade cost to a G4 of $699 for early adopters...given the originally quoted G4 release date will undoubtedly come and pass - The link above does not cover this scenario?
 
The good will that this would endear would have me upgrade to a G4 later into process to let Emotiva get some full price sales in to help mitigate the R&D costs. 

Thanks again all!

[KeithL]

I'm going to offer you the best current real answer here... which is that I don't have a definite answer to give you yet.

However, to be quite honest, I doubt that we're going to be able to make much of an "allowance" for folks who purchase the eARC-enabled HDMI board now.
The upgrade price is already going to be a real sweetheart deal... 
And it isn't going to cost us any less to manufacture your new Gen4 processor because you choose to purchase an eARC-enabled HDMI board now.

As I said... we didn't plan to offer the newer board as an upgrade option since that feature will be part of the new Gen4 upgrade already.
It isn't unusual for more recent hardware versions of a product to be able to take advantage of newer firmware options.
And note that most of the customers who have the newer board did not purchase that feature, pay extra for it, or purchase their processor because of it... 
The hardware change was due to the older parts becoming unavailable.
And, once we verified that we could enable that feature with a firmware update, we decided to do so, rather than charging extra or simply not enabling it on current models.
(You didn't pay a premium; they got an unexpected gift. And we do regret that we couldn't give that gift to everyone with one of our processors.) 

Sept 12, 2023 19:23:12 GMT -5 simons said:

Thanks all for your replies, and KeithL  for the Emotiva perspective.

.................................

So a question back to KeithL - if one was to alleviate the short term pain and spend another $450 on the HDMI upgrade - would that be offset, in whole or part, against the future upgrade cost to a G4 of $699 for early adopters...given the originally quoted G4 release date will undoubtedly come and pass - The link above does not cover this scenario?
 
The good will that this would endear would have me upgrade to a G4 later into process to let Emotiva get some full price sales in to help mitigate the R&D costs. 

Thanks again all!

[jagman]

How do we determine if an G3P had the "new" board or the "old" one?

[doc1963]

Sept 21, 2023 1:41:00 GMT -5 jagman said:

How do we determine if an G3P had the "new" board or the "old" one?

According to Emotiva, all XMC-2, RMC-1L, and RMC-1 units sold after November 2021 have the "eARC capable" HDMI board. So if you purchased your unit prior to that date, you do not have eARC capability.

If you fall into the group that does not have the compatible board, but wants eARC, you do have two options...

One, if you plan to keep your G3 processor and do not need (or plan) to upgrade to the upcoming G4, you can purchase the $450 HDMI board upgrade that gets you eARC.

Or, two, you can wait to upgrade to the G4 which will get you not only eARC, but also HDMI 2.1 (8K) compatibility and the many other features that come along with the G4 upgrade (which are outlined in the first two posts of THIS thread).

Hope that helps...

[geebo]

Sept 21, 2023 1:41:00 GMT -5 jagman said:

How do we determine if an G3P had the "new" board or the "old" one?

Go into Information and look at the HDMI firmware version line. If it's above 10 it the new board and if below it's the old board. More specifically 12.xx for new and 8.xx for old.

[Hair Nick]

[AudioHTIT]

Sept 12, 2023 19:23:12 GMT -5 simons said:

… Dirac - last I looked this was not in the mix but maybe now. I don't see it listed …, and it's not mentioned as included I the G3. I'm not good at trawling 50 page forums, why Emotiva, not update the linked page - as the feature set solidifies?

I agree, it would be nice if the feature page was updated as more is known or announced. Specifically, Hair Nick announced that ‘Dirac’ would be included with the G4P/+ models, and that the black box would be built in (it’s on page 3 of the G4P thread). However, nothing (nada, zero, zilch, zip) has been said about DLBC.
…🐘 … 

[simons]

Sept 15, 2023 14:40:21 GMT -5 KeithL said:

I'm going to offer you the best current real answer here... which is that I don't have a definite answer to give you yet.

Fair enough KeithL! Would be great per AudioHTIT if that new feature page was updated....

I guess the longer I procrastinate the more change there is of the G4 getting released. It's tough to find a window to order the HDMI card and be without the processor for the round trip. But for sure this random switching to HDMI4 is killing me since last firmware update.

[doc1963]

Sept 26, 2023 23:39:35 GMT -5 simons said:

Sept 15, 2023 14:40:21 GMT -5 KeithL said:

I'm going to offer you the best current real answer here... which is that I don't have a definite answer to give you yet.

Fair enough KeithL! Would be great per AudioHTIT if that new feature page was updated....

I guess the longer I procrastinate the more change there is of the G4 getting released. It's tough to find a window to order the HDMI card and be without the processor for the round trip. But for sure this random switching to HDMI4 is killing me since last firmware update.

Random input switching sounds like a CEC issue... What's connected to HDMI 4...?

[KeithL]

It's worth noting that, in current testing, input switching on the new 8k video board, which will be used for the next generation, is MUCH faster.
(So that will be a plus - even with 4k content.)

[AudioHTIT]

Sept 27, 2023 10:49:01 GMT -5 KeithL said:

It's worth noting that, in current testing, input switching on the new 8k video board, which will be used for the next generation, is MUCH faster.
(So that will be a plus - even with 4k content.)

Good to hear! To me, eARC and the hope for faster switching, are the biggest reasons for wanting HDMI 2.1.

Sept 26, 2023 23:39:35 GMT -5 simons said:

… Would be great per AudioHTIT if that new feature page was updated...

I’m sure there are others who’d like this as well, as I hold no sway (though I’ll try to keep the G4P thread up to date).