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Post by AverageNiceGuy on Jan 11, 2024 20:24:27 GMT -5
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Post by thezone on Jan 11, 2024 22:28:11 GMT -5
To be honest I would not bother introducing a budget (semi-pro) device into the chain of high quality hifi products you are purchasing. It would only take away from the purity of the signal and introduce noise and distortion, not to mention, alter the music from something other than what the recording engineers/artists, intended. |
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Post by AverageNiceGuy on Jan 12, 2024 5:28:43 GMT -5
👍
Thank you
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turner
Sensei
Enjoy the music, not the gear.
Posts: 133
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Post by turner on Jan 12, 2024 12:50:25 GMT -5
To be honest I would not bother introducing a budget (semi-pro) device into the chain of high quality hifi products you are purchasing. It would only take away from the purity of the signal and introduce noise and distortion, not to mention, alter the music from something other than what the recording engineers/artists, intended. Behringer is a lot better than they used to be, but I would ask why would you want a EQ like that? Use REW (or other tools) to measure your system at your favorite listing position. Speaker placement, tow in/out and room treatment should fix any issues on a good system/speakers. If you need to correct something, I'd look at modern DSP solutions. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 12, 2024 17:02:25 GMT -5
Actually I'm afraid that would probably NOT be the case at all... The XDA-3 is a DAC... so it will be accepting digital audio inputs and converting them into analog. (Or, if you use its analog inputs, it will be adding a bit of gain, and a Volume control, but otherwise altering them as little as possible.) And you will then be connecting the analog outputs of the XDA-3 to the analog inputs on the power amps. Even though there are actually a lot of parts involved this is actually a relatively simple and exceptionally clean signal path. (The overall design goal of both is to reproduce the original signal as accurately as possible.) Simply adding a graphic equalizer makes your signal path significantly more complex... And specifically in ways that are especially likely to add noise and/or distortion and/or phase shift... And, to be quite blunt, this is a very complex equalizer, with lots of bands, and lots of extra features, so it will add a LOT of complexity to your signal path. I'll risk a bit of hyperbole and say that a 31 band analog graphic equalizer is pretty much the exact opposite of "a pure simple signal path". Analog equalizers are also kind of notorious for NOT being neutral, even when set "flat", and for causing things like noise and phase shift. (Now, to be fair, I haven't heard this one, so it may be the exception, but you are absolutely adding a lot of complexity to the signal path.) If you read the description, or even look at the pictures, you'll get an idea what a unit like the Behringer is intended for... It's intended for a situation where your band is setting up on stage in a new and unfamiliar nightclub... And you need to be able to make relatively precise adjustments and corrections "on the fly" and "by ear" by moving a few sliders... And then be able to make adjustments quickly if the place sounds different when the seats are full or you're getting feedback from the singer's mic. But, while the unit might also sound super clean and pristine, that is not a primary requirement. And these are rather different than what you want for a home audiophile type system. Most equalization used for home systems these days uses parametric EQ. That's where you have a lot fewer bands... but each band can be set to the exact center frequency and width you need. That lets you do more and better corrections, with a lot less complexity, but does require a bit more effort, and a few more measurements, to set up. At this point I would ask: Exactly what are you hoping to DO with an equalizer? Are you hoping to make a few minor adjustments... or are you hoping to add actual room correction... or something else? (And, if everything sounds just fine the way it is, and there's nothing that needs fixing or adjusting, then you really don't need an equalizer.) |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 12, 2024 17:03:07 GMT -5
Basically.... what he said. To be honest I would not bother introducing a budget (semi-pro) device into the chain of high quality hifi products you are purchasing. It would only take away from the purity of the signal and introduce noise and distortion, not to mention, alter the music from something other than what the recording engineers/artists, intended. Behringer is a lot better than they used to be, but I would ask why would you want a EQ like that? Use REW (or other tools) to measure your system at your favorite listing position. Speaker placement, tow in/out and room treatment should fix any issues on a good system/speakers. If you need to correct something, I'd look at modern DSP solutions. |
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Post by AverageNiceGuy on Jan 12, 2024 21:43:25 GMT -5
Thanks again gentlemen.
I will probably be quite happy with the clean system.
I was thinking about things like room correction and the like.
I appreciate your help in correcting my goofy ideas before they become goofy connections
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Post by audiobill on Jan 13, 2024 11:39:25 GMT -5
If you use Roon, get a calibrated mic, run room scans, load REW values into Roon's convolution or PEQ filters, and enjoy.
Not saying that study isn't involved, but dsp room eq for the cost of a mic is the best solution imo. I prefer it to Dirac.
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Post by AverageNiceGuy on Jan 13, 2024 14:37:00 GMT -5
If you use Roon, get a calibrated mic, run room scans, load REW values into Roon's convolution or PEQ filters, and enjoy. Not saying that study isn't involved, but dsp room eq for the cost of a mic is the best solution imo. I prefer it to Dirac. Thank you, I'm interested. I've heard a little about this, But I'll need to learn this from the ground up. I like doing things in stages in order to understand each level. Thank you all very much for helping me on my journey 😎👍 |
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Post by AverageNiceGuy on Feb 2, 2024 17:16:12 GMT -5
Yep, no equalizer needed.
Thanks again for all your help and advice.
Emotiva XDA-3 DAC, and XPA-DR1 Monoblock's received today. I am impressed.
First notice was fuller lows in female vocals. I especially like that sound.
This is a move up from a 20 year old Marantz Receiver 100 watts per channel.
This full sound in female vocals often distorts at louder volume, but not with this new setup.
I understand now what the Marantz “house sound” is. It is a nice sound. This new setup is a cleaner sound.
Now to work on speaker placement.
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Post by vcautokid on Feb 3, 2024 9:30:03 GMT -5
Well let me throw something in here. There is nothing wrong at all with your use of Eq. Why not? Behringer is fine. Used their Midas X consoles in FOH of worship. Easy and reliable. I use their mixer at home too. Works great. The purpose of the Eq many times is blind sonic adjustment which I am not a fan of. If you are using Eq, you need to know what your room is doing first. Room Eq Wizard is free! Yeah get that? Free. Along with your laptop computer or other computer though laptop is the most popular www.roomeqwizard.com/. Along with a USB microphone made for REW in mind. You need to visually see what is going on. Nodal and Null responses. For example at my church there is a nasty node at 500hz we see on our real time analyzer. We're working to fix that. But with only the right tool are we able to pin point what is happening. Your room needs to be baseline analyzed before you do anything else. Often room speaker placement, room treatment is involved. In any case an equalizer is not a panacea alone. Without measurement of what is going on, you're shooting in the dark guessing. Famous words will be "I think this is right." Kind defeats why you would want an equalizer in the first place. So REW, or a real time analyzer is a must. REW again is free. You need the USB microphone and computer. You already have a computer. www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1?lang=en&gclid=Cj0KCQiA5fetBhC9ARIsAP1UMgHI6JrzroeckqNYMNt8kPND3Pf_TAFiUhVJahvgFjvlSQ5qIGPh--gaArPqEALw_wcB or similar on the microphone. |
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turner
Sensei
Enjoy the music, not the gear.
Posts: 133
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Post by turner on Feb 7, 2024 11:31:35 GMT -5
Well let me throw something in here. There is nothing wrong at all with your use of Eq. Why not? Behringer is fine. Used their Midas X consoles in FOH of worship. Easy and reliable. I use their mixer at home too. Works great. The purpose of the Eq many times is blind sonic adjustment which I am not a fan of. If you are using Eq, you need to know what your room is doing first. Room Eq Wizard is free! Yeah get that? Free. Along with your laptop computer or other computer though laptop is the most popular www.roomeqwizard.com/. Along with a USB microphone made for REW in mind. You need to visually see what is going on. Nodal and Null responses. For example at my church there is a nasty node at 500hz we see on our real time analyzer. We're working to fix that. But with only the right tool are we able to pin point what is happening. Your room needs to be baseline analyzed before you do anything else. Often room speaker placement, room treatment is involved. In any case an equalizer is not a panacea alone. Without measurement of what is going on, you're shooting in the dark guessing. Famous words will be "I think this is right." Kind defeats why you would want an equalizer in the first place. So REW, or a real time analyzer is a must. REW again is free. You need the USB microphone and computer. You already have a computer. www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1?lang=en&gclid=Cj0KCQiA5fetBhC9ARIsAP1UMgHI6JrzroeckqNYMNt8kPND3Pf_TAFiUhVJahvgFjvlSQ5qIGPh--gaArPqEALw_wcB or similar on the microphone. I don't have an issue with EQ or Behringer, it's just modern DSP is so much better. It's not limited to bands and sliders. You can choose the exact frequency, slope, +,_db and how wide. In general, I don't think it is needed in home use. At least with a passive crossover speaker that is of good quality. I know people use DSP as crossovers and amps on each of the drivers and bypass a passive crossover. I haven't done that. I do have a full rig and have used REW before, but often I just break out HouseCurve on my phone now days. It does take some measuring, but it's not too hard to match a sub, or find the listening position that mitigates that pesky 100hz null. |
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Post by vcautokid on Feb 8, 2024 16:12:15 GMT -5
Sure absolutely. You are not bound by any result, you tweak as you see fit to get the sound as it should be. Measurements are indicators, and aids to get you to your goal. Gospel? Don't know about that. Some dude who is in love with his Audio Precision thinks so. No names, being good.
But yes, many times you have make minor or profound adjustments. But you do so with some aids, and not just blindly. I agree with you on your comment Turner.
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turner
Sensei
Enjoy the music, not the gear.
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Post by turner on Feb 8, 2024 21:15:22 GMT -5
Sure absolutely. You are not bound by any result, you tweak as you see fit to get the sound as it should be. Measurements are indicators, and aids to get you to your goal. Gospel? Don't know about that. Some dude who is in love with his Audio Precision thinks so. No names, being good. But yes, many times you have make minor or profound adjustments. But you do so with some aids, and not just blindly. I agree with you on your comment Turner. Measurements are a good starting point, but I'd agree, not Gospel. I seem to like a 1.5db boost on the sub. If I try and tune it perfectly flat, it sounds too dull and lackluster. Somewhere between measurements and data is personal preference, but if you want to tune a system to true, it's best not to stray too far in any direction. Can't tune by ear alone, but measurements are also not the end all of enjoyment. |
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Post by AverageNiceGuy on Mar 4, 2024 18:53:43 GMT -5
Thanks for the advice.
I've ended up not needing any adjustments.
I'm quite happy with the sound.
A little tweaking of the sub is all I've done.
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turner
Sensei
Enjoy the music, not the gear.
Posts: 133
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Post by turner on Mar 4, 2024 21:38:40 GMT -5
Glad you got it sorted. Did you tune by any measurements or by ear? In the past, I've attempted by ear, only to realize the bass was too boosted. While I suspect most prefer a mini bass boost to deal with old rock and older softer recordings. If you boost too much, it ruins modern recordings with heavy bass and full range. Somewhere in the middle is a bass level that works for both. While I can't tell you what your personal preference is, for me, it is somewhere in the 1.5db boost where older softer recordings don't suck and the sub doesn't stick out forward and is still in the invisible range for modern mixes. In short, I can't hear a difference between the main 2.0 speakers and the sub. They are near invisibly matched. Perfect? Probably not, but if you want to listen to music from decades apart, it's a good compromise for me.
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Post by AverageNiceGuy on Mar 5, 2024 6:02:44 GMT -5
Glad you got it sorted. Did you tune by any measurements or by ear? In the past, I've attempted by ear, only to realize the bass was too boosted. While I suspect most prefer a mini bass boost to deal with old rock and older softer recordings. If you boost too much, it ruins modern recordings with heavy bass and full range. Somewhere in the middle is a bass level that works for both. While I can't tell you what your personal preference is, for me, it is somewhere in the 1.5db boost where older softer recordings don't suck and the sub doesn't stick out forward and is still in the invisible range for modern mixes. In short, I can't hear a difference between the main 2.0 speakers and the sub. They are near invisibly matched. Perfect? Probably not, but if you want to listen to music from decades apart, it's a good compromise for me. Thanks. Yes, I've experienced over boosted bass in the past. I've only tuned by ears so far. I'll probably use microphones and software in the future. All mid's and high's are simply the flat signal from the current EMOTIVA XDA-3 DAC. I am so very happy with the sound quality now, that I don't find myself itching to do anything more for sound tuning at this time. I am currently very impressed with the sound, and I pretty much get lost in the music, rather than thinking about equipment. I was previously using an old Marantz SR7002 receiver, and I was constantly fiddling with tuning to attempt improvements. Marantz SR7002 Receiver Review | Audioholics The EMOTIVA XDA-3 DAC, and EMOTIVA XPA-1 Monoblock's helped me to break out of the Marantz "house, warm sound", that I now realize was a bit "muddy", into a very clear audio sound. Another large improvement has been speaker positioning (using the runaway horse song technique), and a fairly well positioned subwoofer. The speakers and sub are fairly transparent now, and the sound seems to come from center stage for vocals, and with instruments fairly well positioned from different locations in the room, and test music for instrument positioning shows good results. The listening room and current system speaker combination appears to be quite forgiving for several types of music. I've made recent improvements in speaker cable: Original cables were: Belden 5000UE, larger copper strands. www.belden.com/products/Cable/Audio-Cable/Speaker-Cable/5000UE?fbclid=IwAR3qYhkjUjx15WY75LZoZJiLLL27Omdwn-NDdyH5sWX-2mffExb7ZSwf6oQI had these for a few years, and this was my improvement from zip-cord speaker wire. A previous recent switch, about a week ago, was to ~$40 Micca 14 Gauge Pure Copper Speaker cable,... thin copper strands, very nice. www.amazon.com/dp/B06ZZ5HCTM?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_detailsI was able to hear a better "breathing" type sound with the Micca speaker cables, but I did not realize that some things were un-natural until the change below. I just switched further to Mogami 3082 speaker cables ....https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00P210W5U?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details These showed that the previous cables were causing a fairly thin less than natural sound for acoustic instruments. The recent speaker cable changes has allowed me to hear a natural, open type sound that I had never experienced before with my own equipment. Even my non-golden, aging ears can hear that natural Orchestra instruments sound more real, sharp, natural, and full with the Mogami speaker cables. I'm enjoying this journey. 🎶 EQUIPMENT IN SERVICE: Speakers: fairly revealing Carnegie CST-1's with improved crossovers. Good planar magnetic tweeters. (Interior folded transmission design) www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1112/carnegie_acoustics_cst_1.htmSub: SVS SB-1000 Subwoofer DAC: EMOTIVA XDA-3 DAC, emotiva.com/collections/pre-amps/products/xda-3-differential-reference-dac ESS ES9038Q2M SABRE32 Reference DAC (32-bit Stereo DAC with Hyperstream® II DAC architecture and Time Domain Jitter Eliminator). Amps: EMOTIVA XPA-DR1 Monoblock's. 650w/ch 8ohms emotiva.com/collections/amps/products/xpa-1-gen3Interconnects: Balanced DAC>Amps, Canare L-4E6S www.amazon.com/dp/B08YRQTLKL?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_detailsStreamer: NVIDIA pro, USB>DAC I am somewhat interested in a higher quality streamer than the NVIDIA pro, but I'm not sure whether an audible difference can be heard by me. I am slightly curious about a better DAC, but I'm not sure that I can achieve that without spending more than $1000.00 |
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