XMC-1 Gen2 No subwoofer test tone in 2.1 Channel

[thecrusherk]

Greetings Fellow Emo Loungers!

I have an XMC-1 Gen2 that in the past was used in surround/movie duty. Recently I decided to pair it to XDA-3 for Direct and Stereo balanced in for bass management. I think I have discovered a bug or perhaps just an issue with my unit and was wondering if others could test and confirm. When I configure the speakers for Front Left, Front Right, and Subwoofer only, I am able to use internal test tones for only the Left and Right front channels. Yes Front Left and Front Right are set to small and left at 80hz default. Changing the crossover value makes no difference, nor does changing the slope on the sub in the XMC-1. There is no test tone signal sent to the subwoofer regardless if surround mode configured for Direct or Stereo. This is with both Preset 1 and Preset 2. Dirac preset is not affected, and does play test tone, which previously was run in a surround environment.

When I switch to Preset 1 and Preset 2 there is no sub test tone either on low, medium, or high. If for Preset 1 or Preset 2 or both when I change one of the speaker configurations for the surround, center, or back channels from NONE to Small the XMC-1 will send a test tone signal. It only takes adding one more channel and doesn't matter which one.

I do not experience this behavior with the RMC-1L units. I have reset to factory defaults, reloaded the last firmware release on top of the existing firmware which came from Emotiva with the latest firmware and upgraded HDMI board. and reset to factory defaults and tested again with setting the Fronts to Small and all other non sub/lfe channels to NONE for 2.1 and am not able to get a subwoofer/lfe tone out.

I've seen some similar earlier posts but theirs was resolved finding some other errors in configuration. I've been through the configuration ensuring that Direct/Stereo and Not any Reference Stereo selected. Like I said it will immediately work as soon as 1 additional channel besides the Front mains (SMALL) and the sub is added as SMALL.

Is my unit the only one that reproduces this behavior, hoping that others could test 2.1 configured for SMALL with all other channels set for NONE and see if test tone is played on sub out? I also feel that the signal out from both the XLRs and the RCAs, as I have tested both and they seem to function the same, might be muted/soft and weak as well. I don't have the ability to test the strength of the signal out for those outputs.

Thanks in advance!

[markc]

Which of the three subwoofer outputs is your subwoofer connected to at the rear of the XMC-2?

In Setup: Speakers, is the subwoofer configured as LFE, Dual mono or stereo?

[doc1963]

The OP says he has an XMC-1, not an XMC-2, so those settings are not relevant in this case. But this might be...

From the XMC-1 User Manual...

"If you have two subwoofers, you may choose to configure them as Stereo, or as Dual Mono. If you choose Stereo, both subwoofers will remain separate, and your XMC-1 will be operating in 7.2 channel mode. If you choose Dual Mono, both subwoofers will be configured and adjusted separately, but both will then receive the same summed audio signal. If you choose one Mono subwoofer, then it should be connected to the Left Subwoofer output."

So, check your subwoofer setting in the speaker setup menu to ensure that you have the correct mode selected for your particular scenario and that you are connected to the correct subwoofer output as noted above.

[thecrusherk]

Thanks Doc and Markc!

You are correct this is XMC-1 which only has the 2 sub outs. I have tried with both XLR preferred and the RCA. I have used single and double XLR and RCA's as well as Mono and dual mono configurations. My sub has ability for single and double inputs as well. I will double check and test again with MONO and single cable on Left sub out but I am sure that I did that and will post back. Again it's strange that it only takes adding in an additional channel such as the Center in SMALL even if not used and then we get a signal. Really hoping that someone still has an XMC-1 out there that could confirm if they have same behavior fairly easy steps to repro. Both my RMC-1Ls don't do this.

I will post back here shortly.

[thecrusherk]

Okay so connected 1 XLR to the Left Sub out and ensure that the Left/Right Sub to MONO. This is the most simplest of the sub options available. Played source material and the sub turned on, detected the signal and output bass. Confirmed that the sub is audible and that the sub is working and ON. Tried the test tone inside XMC-1. Tone plays for Left and Right channels and is silent with the Sub. Changed Center to SMALL/80hz (added a phantom center channel that doesn't exist physically in the system) and then go back to Levels and test tones. Right and Left and the sub plays the tones. Go back to the configuration and turn Center to NONE and sub stops playing the tones.

[ttocs]

Jan 30, 2024 16:02:37 GMT -5 thecrusherk said:

Okay so connected 1 XLR to the Left Sub out and ensure that the Left/Right Sub to MONO. 

Yes, it seems you found a bug.

This will seem strange, but to ensure more bases are covered, please leave the settings as Fronts Small, Left/Right Sub MONO, no Center, but, connect the subwoofer to Right Sub Out. Just want to verify that no signal comes from this Output.

[thecrusherk]

Hey Ttocs!

Another really good step that I hadn't thought to play with but it it's a valid test to make sure that something isn't switched up there. I will go test that now and report back.

[thecrusherk]

When set to sub mono and moving the XLR to the Right output there is no sub sound at all with source material or test tones. This would be expected.

If I change the sub to "dual mono" then I have sub output with source material on the Right sub out expected. When I go to Levels there is a Left Sub and Right sub for independent level adjustment and no TEST tones. If I change the CENTER to small. In this configuration I still have the Left and Right subwoofer for level adjustment and now the right output will play the tone as it is connected to the right XLR out on the XMC-1. Left is dead quiet. If I move the XLR cable to the Left XLR out and test on the Left sub I have tones. So there doesn't appear to be an issue with Left or Right in regards to subwoofer out. The only way to get the XMC-1 to output any test tone to the sub channel you have to have more than just the Fronts turned on to SMALL. Very odd.

[ttocs]

Jan 30, 2024 20:29:54 GMT -5 thecrusherk said:

When set to sub mono and moving the XLR to the Right output there is no sub sound at all with source material or test tones. This would be expected.

If I change the sub to "dual mono" then I have sub output with source material on the Right sub out expected. When I go to Levels there is a Left Sub and Right sub for independent level adjustment and no TEST tones. If I change the CENTER to small. In this configuration I still have the Left and Right subwoofer for level adjustment and now the right output will play the tone as it is connected to the right XLR out on the XMC-1. Left is dead quiet. If I move the XLR cable to the Left XLR out and test on the Left sub I have tones. So there doesn't appear to be an issue with Left or Right in regards to subwoofer out. The only way to get the XMC-1 to output any test tone to the sub channel you have to have more than just the Fronts turned on to SMALL. Very odd.

Great diagnosing! Gotta cover everything to rule out everything.

I'd contact Emotiva and see what they say. Good luck!

[thecrusherk]

Working with Emotiva as they opened a support ticket. We will see what if anything can be done. I also reported another issue with the unit that I am experiencing that I don't experience with the RMC-1Ls or the XMC-1 Gen 1 unit that I have or had. Because of the frequent testing and configuration changes, going into the MENU options and exiting after a few times eventually the LCD screen will freeze up and then each menu change or enter will cause the pixilation and the screens to stack up on each other. Then you can't tell if you have exited or what is being changed. Then if you try to power off from the front it doesn't power off correctly and leaving the LCD screen on but the unit appearing to be off. This requires a hard power off with the master switch in the back and fresh new boot up. Again not using any HDMI source connected and only using the unit in 2.1 channel with the LCD front panel only.

With the all my other units I have always used them in multi channel including this unit. I asked if anything from the new XMC-2 and RMCs firmware could be back ported if applicable as well. I don't know if the XMC-1 or XMC-1 Gen2 is really supported anymore.

Curious what they say. I know the sub out is easily reproduced on my unit and also the pixilation. Again curious if they have a unit internally that reproduces this behavior or is just my unit?

[thecrusherk]

I am not new to the products and gear. I was introduced to the brand by a friend with the LMC-1 / LPA-1 pairing from the early Emotiva and or AV123 days and have owned their processors and amps since in almost every if not every iteration. Pretty sure that the LPA-1 is still going strong with a friend. The LMC-1 is so dated that it is no longer used AFAIK.

[lhracing]

Jan 30, 2024 23:09:16 GMT -5 ttocs said:

Jan 30, 2024 20:29:54 GMT -5 thecrusherk said:

When set to sub mono and moving the XLR to the Right output there is no sub sound at all with source material or test tones. This would be expected.

If I change the sub to "dual mono" then I have sub output with source material on the Right sub out expected. When I go to Levels there is a Left Sub and Right sub for independent level adjustment and no TEST tones. If I change the CENTER to small. In this configuration I still have the Left and Right subwoofer for level adjustment and now the right output will play the tone as it is connected to the right XLR out on the XMC-1. Left is dead quiet. If I move the XLR cable to the Left XLR out and test on the Left sub I have tones. So there doesn't appear to be an issue with Left or Right in regards to subwoofer out. The only way to get the XMC-1 to output any test tone to the sub channel you have to have more than just the Fronts turned on to SMALL. Very odd.

Great diagnosing! Gotta cover everything to rule out everything.

I'd contact Emotiva and see what they say. Good luck!

I have an XMC-1 that I use for 2.1 only and mine functions just like yours does. I did not know about the Center channel so I tried it and the sub test tones worked just as you describe.

[thecrusherk]

Thanks lhracing! I really appreciate the confirmation. I would expect that this is not by design as my RMC-1Ls do not function in this manner. Not sure what if anything can be done at this point. I have since posting become a new owner of XSP-1 Gen2 and am amazed at this device. It's incredible simple and probably one of Emotiva's best devices made in it's history. I am really hoping that they bring it back as an XSP-2 or even if just bring back the XSP-1 as Gen2 or 3 whatever they would call it. From my research Emotiva is the only maker of such a device and nailed it! They definitely owned the market for an analog 2 channel preamp fully differential. I'd seriously like and consider adding another one to a system of mine.

Love watching this!
emotiva.com/blogs/news/lonnie-vaughn-on-emotiva-s-xsp-1-gen-2-stereo-preamplifier

[lhracing]

I have had 2 of the XMC-1 processors and a XSP-1 Gen 2 preamp. I traded in my first XMC-1 for a XMC-2.

Last year I sold the XSP-1 and bought a used XMC-1 to replace it. I did this to have a little better/flexible bass management, use the built-in DAC and let me do some EQ correction with REW. I liked the XSP-1 but for me the XMC-1 works very well in my 2-channel room.

[thecrusherk]

Emotiva support initially responded that it is expected to have to configure the XMc-1 for minimum 3.1 channel or more for the internal test tone for the sub to work. I pushed back on this and took responsibility for perhaps not communicating well. If they think about it for a minute with the above then they are saying that 2.1 channel is not supported for the XMC-1 and that is absurd.

I encouraged them to get their hands on a unit internally and test. Since you were able to also reproduce the behavior it is not just my unit and leads me to believe that there is an issue with the software/firmware of the unit. I have had other units from other manufacturers and also Emotiva units not behave in this manner. They are saying to me that the XMC-2 and RMC-1 variants function differently but it was in regards to stereo subs and mono subs and Dolby recommendations. That is not what I am challenging. I am questioning the basic 2.1 setup with Fronts to SMALL to get an internal test signal sent to the sub for calibration. It's like I am expected to configure the unit temporarily for more than 2.1 channels and then what happens when I turn it off is the signal to the sub(s) affected in anyway. I just don't know. I can tell you that it feels different and sounds different with the XSP-1 Gen2 and RMC-1L. So I believe that something just isn't right in 2.1 channel with the unit in terms of output to the sub.

I believe that nothing should be preventing me from using the XMC-1 as a 2 channel unit with the balanced analog in for left and right with an addition of 1 or even 2 subs in mono or dual mono. Either configuration doesn't send the tones to the subwoofer until a other Center and surround channels are added and it only takes 1. This is weird and nothing I have ever owned worked in this manner again 3rd party or Emotiva. Waiting for a response back and see what is said.

[thecrusherk]

Like you I owned a Gen1 XMC-1 and traded-in for RMC-1L. Then later purchased the XMC-1 Gen2 from their website after all of the trade-ins because I wanted an XMC-1 back. I am curious do you believe that your signal sent to the sub is diminished in any fashion? Did in your setup you feel like you had to increase the level on the sub to compensate in any manner when testing and using REW which I am sure that you were using PEQ to tweak the sub.

Anyways thanks again for the confirmation! I am curious about the reply because I don't feel like I am crazy or wrong here. It just seems odd and off somehow.

[thecrusherk]

Good news that they agreed that something isn't quite right and that it was passed to engineering stay tuned!

[KeithL]

You definitely should be able to set your XMC-1 to support a 2.1 channel configuration - and you definitely can.
(I've done it myself... at some point in the distant past.)
The only real question is of whether there is an error in the firmware that causes the test tones to not work quite right in that mode. 
(The firmware in the XMC-1 has been updated quite a few times over the life of the product.)

The number of customers who actually use manual internal test tones with a 2.1 channel configuration on a processor like the XMC-1 is actually pretty small...
Most people don't use a 7.2 channel processor for 2.1 channels...
And most people who have the option prefer automatic room correction...
And most people who don't use automatic room correction use something like REW (which produces its own test tones)...
So there really aren't an awful lot of people using the manual test tones, in a 2.1 channel setup, with an XMC-1.
So it's definitely possible that a minor glitch that only affects the test tones in that one particular situation crept into the firmware at some point and was missed.

Also, as I said, we are planning at least one more firmware update for the XMC-1 ...
And we have a short list of things that we plan to attend to in that update ...
And I have confirmed that this is now "on the list" ...
But, considering the age of the XMC-1, I cannot promise when or if that final update will actually occur.

Feb 7, 2024 14:59:02 GMT -5 thecrusherk said:

Emotiva support initially responded that it is expected to have to configure the XMc-1 for minimum 3.1 channel or more for the internal test tone for the sub to work. I pushed back on this and took responsibility for perhaps not communicating well. If they think about it for a minute with the above then they are saying that 2.1 channel is not supported for the XMC-1 and that is absurd.

I encouraged them to get their hands on a unit internally and test. Since you were able to also reproduce the behavior it is not just my unit and leads me to believe that there is an issue with the software/firmware of the unit. I have had other units from other manufacturers and also Emotiva units not behave in this manner. They are saying to me that the XMC-2 and RMC-1 variants function differently but it was in regards to stereo subs and mono subs and Dolby recommendations. That is not what I am challenging. I am questioning the basic 2.1 setup with Fronts to SMALL to get an internal test signal sent to the sub for calibration. It's like I am expected to configure the unit temporarily for more than 2.1 channels and then what happens when I turn it off is the signal to the sub(s) affected in anyway. I just don't know. I can tell you that it feels different and sounds different with the XSP-1 Gen2 and RMC-1L. So I believe that something just isn't right in 2.1 channel with the unit in terms of output to the sub.

I believe that nothing should be preventing me from using the XMC-1 as a 2 channel unit with the balanced analog in for left and right with an addition of 1 or even 2 subs in mono or dual mono. Either configuration doesn't send the tones to the subwoofer until a other Center and surround channels are added and it only takes 1. This is weird and nothing I have ever owned worked in this manner again 3rd party or Emotiva. Waiting for a response back and see what is said.

[thecrusherk]

Thanks for the reply Keith as I am sure that community appreciated the extra context around a possible fix to come. I did comment as soon as I got a response that it was agreed there is an issue and passed to engineering. I was being tactful in not sharing too much information as I felt like it wasn't in my place to do so.

I've done a fair bit of troubleshooting, technical support and QA work over the years in various roles for major software and technology company. I can't count how many issues I've been involved in that were critical to the littlest issue such as misspelling or poorly worded documentation. In the end we the company, the engineers, the employees and our customers typically want things to work as intended, and or be fixed if possible. We do this while learning from our mistakes and remembering our history so that we do our best to not repeat them. I'd assume a future test case would be created for this configuration to make sure no other releases would function this way unless designed. If I didn't report it then I would not be responsible in my opinion. Hopefully my method and approach is reasonable, by first discussing it with the community to make sure that I myself didn't make a mistake and seek the help of others to see if it is unique to 1 unit or a match to many (other people's units). This helps gauge scope and direction of resolution primarily being hardware vs software side of things.

I 100% agree with you above, that most people are probably doing more with the unit and hadn't discovered it but the fact that I am using the unit in what would be considered a reduced role and not a full surround sound processor shouldn't really be a factor. I only stumbled on this as I repurposed an XMC-1 as a quick and dirty 2 channel solution to provide some bass management and volume control from an XDA-3 as it is not able to do so. It was only with this configuration and initial setup that it seemed like it wasn't working as intended, especially from the units own internals. Nothing external or more advanced equipment required and a simple ask to the community can it be reproduced with very little effort.

Thanks again for following up on this and sharing more details that we can look forward to another last firmware send off for the XMC-1 to fix as much as possible. That alone is very encouraging.

Kind regards!