Upmixing not working ?

[gary3917]

Hi guys ,
Just got my XMC-2 and 11 channel XPA amp with a 9.3.4 set up .
I am kinda green so please bear me out .
When I play a certain video stream like Peacock and Paramont thru my Roku Ultra...I am only getting a playback of 2 channel sound  and yet my processor is reading that it is ATMOS on my info on screen TV and on my XMC 2 front panel . Isn't my XMC supposed to read Stereo instead of Atmos if it is not a Atmos signal ? isn't the processor supposed to upmix a stereo signal to really be atmos with all speakers .I know all streaming stuff is not dolby atmos but I thought that is why we buy atmos equipment to upmix it for a better experience and have it upmixed ..Why is my xmc 2 reading ATMOS on the display if it is only getting a 2 channel signal . I have my settings set to (Auto ) automaticly mix it for me to dolby atmos . Isn't my xmc2 supposed to fix it to all my channels .How can I make this happen ?. I will say that when a  I play  a Blue Ray movie or Apple and Netflix , it  is Dolby atmos .... like  WOW ! Great mix for sure .Do I have it set wrong  (also set to Bitstream and not PCM) I want my xmc2 to be a processor and  to do it right  for me . Am i doing something wrong . I am wondering what to do . Thank you for your response and help .
Gary

[ttocs]

Because it's from a Roku Ultra. I have the same Roku and get the same false ATMOS being sent from the Roku.

Try a different source.

Roku doesn't seem to have a polished setup for audio. The only reason I bought the Roku is to watch Isle Of Man motorcycle race each year, which is only 2.0, but depending on how I setup the audio the Roku can send it as ATMOS. It's like that old kids saying, they think it's candy but it's not.

[gary3917]

But should the XMC2 upmix it to my real surround of atmos and not 2 channel regardless of the panel reading atmos ?

[ttocs]

Feb 4, 2024 0:59:50 GMT -5 gary3917 said:

But should the XMC2 upmix it to my real surround of atmos and not 2 channel regardless of the panel reading atmos ?

Apparently not. Trinnov does exactly what my XMC-2 does, it shows ATMOS from 2.0 but doesn't use more than two channels. It's been reported to Roku, but I haven't seen a resolution of the issue.

You can try setting the Roku to Passthrough, which will then upmix poorly to other speakers.
Or you can setup Custom Audio and use Dolby Digital or Dolby Digital Plus, which will still be in Stereo.
Or just accept that Roku doesn't work as well as other streamers. This is what I accepted and rarely ever use it anymore. It's a cute little thing.

I now use ATV4K for watching TT+ Isle Of Man racing and it upmixes better, but is still mostly stereo with some sounds coming from other speakers, so I only watch in Stereo or All Stereo so the quality is good for the two channels vs not good for upmix. Some shows just don't upmix well, and some streamers just don't handle this well.

[gary3917]

Well, I’ll be damned, I thought that was the whole reason for buying an expensive processor

[ttocs]

I've watched the same major sporting event from two different streams and have gotten two different mixes, namely the Indy 500 Qualifications. The streams came from NBC and Peacock. Peacock had a better mix and there was more natural sound in the Surrounds. Now notice I didn't say "upmix", because it was the native audio format I was listening to.

Same processor, two different streams from the same original source. I contend it's not the processor. I don't have an explanation as to why the sound was different. I only know that the sound was better from one streaming service than from another using the same audio system. My buddy had the same experience on his system.

I also have concluded that Roku in particular does not provide the same quality experience to me as ATV4K, as concluded from trying to use upmixing and getting little screachy sounds in the Surrounds from Roku vs better sounds from ATV4K. But neither impress me to want to upmix the audio coming from TT+. I had a similar experience from F1TV, which is why I cancelled after the 2022 season.

[marcl]

Feb 4, 2024 9:46:33 GMT -5 ttocs said:

I've watched the same major sporting event from two different streams and have gotten two different mixes, namely the Indy 500 Qualifications. The streams came from NBC and Peacock. Peacock had a better mix and there was more natural sound in the Surrounds. Now notice I didn't say "upmix", because it was the native audio format I was listening to.

Same processor, two different streams from the same original source. I contend it's not the processor. I don't have an explanation as to why the sound was different. I only know that the sound was better from one streaming service than from another using the same audio system. My buddy had the same experience on his system.

I also have concluded that Roku in particular does not provide the same quality experience to me as ATV4K, as concluded from trying to use upmixing and getting little screachy sounds in the Surrounds from Roku vs better sounds from ATV4K. But neither impress me to want to upmix the audio coming from TT+. I had a similar experience from F1TV, which is why I cancelled after the 2022 season.

So if the processor is told by the device that the audio is 2.0 or 5.1, the Dolby upmixer will upmix it to all your speakers.  If the processor is told that it's Atmos, all you can do is downmix to Stereo (if it actually IS Atmos) ... you don't see the Dolby Surround upmixer as a choice.  And the problem is ... if the source is NOT actually Atmos but is reported as such from the device, the processor doesn't give you the Dolby Surround upmixer as a choice.  Do I have that right?

BTW ... slightly off the upmix topic, but on the varying sound quality topic ...

4-5 years ago I was using the HBO ATV4K app and all of a sudden the last season of Thrones the sound was bad ... compressed, highs rolled off ... just couldn't get it to sound loud enough.  I read that Prime's HBO stream was better so I tried it, and it distinctly sounded better ... like I remembered it should sound.  And (no surprise) I used the REW RTA to look at a few clips from both sources and indeed the HBO ATV4K app rolled off the highs, compressed the dynamics, and played audio 5db lower than HBO through Prime.  Note that I played HBO through the Prime ATV4K app.  So I switched to HBO through Prime, until a couple years ago when Prime dropped HBO, so I had to go back to the ATV4K app ... and it's been what it's been.

So now ... I see Prime is offering MAX again.  I wonder if the stream is better?

[ttocs]

Feb 4, 2024 11:29:58 GMT -5 marcl said:

Feb 4, 2024 9:46:33 GMT -5 ttocs said:

I've watched the same major sporting event from two different streams and have gotten two different mixes, namely the Indy 500 Qualifications. The streams came from NBC and Peacock. Peacock had a better mix and there was more natural sound in the Surrounds. Now notice I didn't say "upmix", because it was the native audio format I was listening to.

Same processor, two different streams from the same original source. I contend it's not the processor. I don't have an explanation as to why the sound was different. I only know that the sound was better from one streaming service than from another using the same audio system. My buddy had the same experience on his system.

I also have concluded that Roku in particular does not provide the same quality experience to me as ATV4K, as concluded from trying to use upmixing and getting little screachy sounds in the Surrounds from Roku vs better sounds from ATV4K. But neither impress me to want to upmix the audio coming from TT+. I had a similar experience from F1TV, which is why I cancelled after the 2022 season.

So if the processor is told by the device that the audio is 2.0 or 5.1, the Dolby upmixer will upmix it to all your speakers.  If the processor is told that it's Atmos, all you can do is downmix to Stereo (if it actually IS Atmos) ... you don't see the Dolby Surround upmixer as a choice.  And the problem is ... if the source is NOT actually Atmos but is reported as such from the device, the processor doesn't give you the Dolby Surround upmixer as a choice.  Do I have that right?

Pretty much.

I can setup the audio from Roku such that when TT+ is spitting out 2.0, somehow Roku chooses to SEND ATMOS to the processor but only two channels are active. This is a known problem with Roku as reported by others with other brand processors.

My issue with the upmixing is that what I hear in the upmixed channels is minimal and lousy quality - when streaming TT+ via Roku.

I don't know what is involved in how a audio stream is reported causing a processor to interpret and play in any possible manner.

[gary3917]

So do you guys think: is ATV4 the best streamer or what would be the best streaming device for the best overall experience , w/o having to hack it .Maybe .. Nvidia Shield device ? Sure as hell can not do Kaleidescape . and thanx for your help to understand this complicated mess I have gotton myself into ...sure is an expensive mess I must say !

[marcl]

Feb 4, 2024 12:31:22 GMT -5 gary3917 said:

So do you guys think: is ATV4 the best streamer or what would be the best streaming device for the best overall experience , w/o having to hack it .Maybe .. Nvidia Shield device ? Sure as hell can not do Kaleidescape . and thanx for your help to understand this complicated mess I have gotton myself into ...sure is an expensive mess I must say !

Maybe we can back up a bit to the sources.  The best circumstance is to watch sources with native Atmos content, if you want to hear all the speakers.  Once you establish the sources that you want to watch, then find the streaming devices that support those sources ... AND support streaming Atmos.  

On ATV4K I watch Netflix, Prime, MAX, AppleTV+, and occasionally rent from Apple or Prime.  I listen to some music with Apple Music which supports Atmos.  All of those have lots of Atmos content (AppleTV+ 100% as far as I can see).  And the ATV4K plays them all fine.  If the source is 2.0 or 5.1, the processor will upmix to all your channels.  Upmixed 2.0 can sound amazingly good, depending on the source.  But note that upmix is not the same as Atmos, but it plays something through all the speakers based on the Dolby Surround upmixer's algorithm.

I'm doing a trial with Hulu because there's a series I wanted to watch.  But Hulu does not support Atmos.  When it plays 2.0 or 5.1 I can select the Dolby Surround upmixer to use all of my 7.1.4 channels.

So Roku has this issue that ATV4K does not have.  

[gary3917]

Thank you so much marcl wonderful explanation .I wonder what would happen if I ran the signal to my 82 in 4k Samsung tv and then back to my xmc2 and set my tv to its highest quality setting ?

[ttocs]

It's been a while since I've done this, and going from memory isn't accurate enough for me, so I went through most of the choices for Audio Setup in Roku Ultra. The Roku choices are shown above each image, and so is one example from ATV4K, and the resulting incoming and outbound audio is shown on the processor. Roku Custom forces the Dolby audio codec, Auto lets Roku choose - wrongly - what it thinks the codec should be for "best quality".


Playing TT+ the Isle Of Man TT races from 2023 which is output in 2 channel.

Roku Custom: Dolby Digital Plus
Plays in stereo.


Roku Custom: Dolby Digital
Plays an upmix in all channels.


Roku Passthrough
Plays an upmix in all channels, but sounds different than the upmix above.


Roku Auto
Plays in stereo.


Apple TV 4K
Audio Format: Change Format:Off,, Immersive Audio:Dolby Atmos:On
Plays an upmix in all channels noticeably stronger than Roku, the sounds in the Surrounds are more coherent and distinct.

[gary3917]

Oh now that is nice thank you for this .Did not realize those menus existed .Got to get thru the learning curve and your wonderful help will get me there !! I am going to just get the ATV 4K but the only thing that bothers me is The Roku Ultra supports passthrough, but the Apple TV 4K does not . Does this really matter for streaming only or for ripping dvd of which i donot do ?

[ttocs]

Well, if the question is which source works best, I don't think there's a single answer. It's a mixed bag. Nothing is perfect in every way, which is why I have a Roku in the first place as it was one of only a couple ways to stream the Isle Of Man races a few years ago. I don't need it anymore now that TT+ is available on ATV4K. Which reminds me, I need to cancel a recurring charge from Roku otherwise they'll five dollar me to death.

Regarding Passthrough, I don't worry about it with 2.0 material. The ATV4K does a great job with most stuff, so I just don't think about it, even though Apple isn't perfect either. I guess I just don't stress much when it comes to streaming, which is a very non-perfect medium, in fact I'm pretty happy that it works as well as it does these days.