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Post by miata57 on Apr 15, 2024 14:52:07 GMT -5
Hello,
I am quite pleased with my stereo setup, but something has been bothering me.
Having spent a lot of money on some Klipsch Forte IVs, I now wonder if the Emotiva PT1 pre-amp is the weak link?
Using B&K St-140 mono blocks for amps which I am happy with along with VPI JR turntable and Audiolab CD player/Schiit DAC.
Would I hear a significant upgrade in sound if I was to buy a better pre-amp?
Thanks
Howie
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Post by pedrocols on Apr 15, 2024 16:53:29 GMT -5
What do you mean by better?
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Post by garbulky on Apr 16, 2024 16:47:28 GMT -5
Hello, I am quite pleased with my stereo setup, but something has been bothering me. Having spent a lot of money on some Klipsch Forte IVs, I now wonder if the Emotiva PT1 pre-amp is the weak link? Using B&K St-140 mono blocks for amps which I am happy with along with VPI JR turntable and Audiolab CD player/Schiit DAC. Would I hear a significant upgrade in sound if I was to buy a better pre-amp? Thanks Howie I don’t think so. I’m glad you are enjoying the forte. However if you are looking for clearer bass then your forte is the weak spot. The emotiva t2 would be a good upgrade imo. However the tone is very different so it may not be to your taste. Also if you haven’t explored room treatments that will be the best improvement for the $. It will improve every aspect of your sound. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 16, 2024 23:10:00 GMT -5
May I second garbulky’s plug for room treatment. Electronic room correction is a pale immitation. An audio amigo of mine recently dropped $250 on room treatments and told me that it’s made a bigger improvement in his sound than anything he’s ever bought, |
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Post by fbczar on Apr 17, 2024 0:34:32 GMT -5
May I second garbulky ’s plug for room treatment. Electronic room correction is a pale immitation. An audio amigo of mine recently dropped $250 on room treatments and told me that it’s made a bigger improvement in his sound than anything he’s ever bought, I must disagree. I have an exceptionally well treated room and Dirac makes a profound difference. Room treatments and Dirac, or any competent electronic room correction, are synergistic. Treat your room to the best of your ability and then use Dirac for the finishing touch. |
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Post by fbczar on Apr 17, 2024 0:41:55 GMT -5
Hello, I am quite pleased with my stereo setup, but something has been bothering me. Having spent a lot of money on some Klipsch Forte IVs, I now wonder if the Emotiva PT1 pre-amp is the weak link? Using B&K St-140 mono blocks for amps which I am happy with along with VPI JR turntable and Audiolab CD player/Schiit DAC. Would I hear a significant upgrade in sound if I was to buy a better pre-amp? Thanks Howie There can be no doubt that preamps can make huge sound differences, but the synergy of the overall system can be a limiting factor. If you are primarily a stereo and turntable guy the good news is there are a limitless supply of extraordinary stereo preamps. You might even like tubes. |
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Post by marcl on Apr 17, 2024 3:07:51 GMT -5
May I second garbulky ’s plug for room treatment. Electronic room correction is a pale immitation. An audio amigo of mine recently dropped $250 on room treatments and told me that it’s made a bigger improvement in his sound than anything he’s ever bought, I must disagree. I have an exceptionally well treated room and Dirac makes a profound difference. Room treatments and Dirac, or any competent electronic room correction, are synergistic. Treat your room to the best of your ability and then use Dirac for the finishing touch. It's a system and each aspect of the system has a range of effects on the sound. Some effects are significantly greater in magnitude and complexity than others. And so if there's a problem to be solved it may take a combination of approaches ... none of which taken alone can totally solve the problem. And Floyd Toole in his research with many components in many rooms has boiled it down to a couple simple statements (which I'll consolidate and paraphrase): 1 - The best speakers - those with uniform off axis response and controlled resonances - will sound the best in any room. 2 - Modern electronic components have evolved to such a high level of performance that the sum of all of the effects of electronic components is not as significant as the effect of the room's acoustics. Speaker placement comes first and it's essentially free, but it can't solve all room issues by itself. Room treatment comes next because there are things that absorption, reflection and diffusion can contribute to the sound that you can't accomplish any other way. And finally, digital room correction can accomplish things that speaker placement and room treatment can't. Together they move the system toward better and better sound. Note the limitations: 1 - Speaker placement is essential to achieve the best imaging and soundstage, but it has a relatively small effect on resonance modes that cause the largest peaks and cancellations. 2 - Bass traps are very good at reducing the effects of resonance peaks, and in fact about the ONLY way to eliminate cancellations ... but it's very difficult to achieve significant effect below 100Hz. 3 - Digital room correction is very effective eliminating large peaks below 100Hz - it's pretty much the ONLY practical solution - but it is not very effective with cancellations below the transition frequency (~200Hz). Digital room correction is the only way to achieve impulse response and phase correction. In my room bass traps reduced the peak to null range of my largest resonances below 100Hz from 25db down to 15db, and significantly reduced the decay time of resonant peaks - Dirac alone could not do that. But Dirac totally eliminated more than 10db of that peak to null range by eliminating a 40Hz peak - room treatment alone could not do that. Dirac's impulse and phase correction contribute to clarity and transient response in a way that no room treatment ever could. And no preamp, DAC, amp, disc player, turntable, etc. could have as much impact on the sound as any of these elements. |
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Post by 405x5 on Apr 17, 2024 8:58:41 GMT -5
Hello, I am quite pleased with my stereo setup, but something has been bothering me. Having spent a lot of money on some Klipsch Forte IVs, I now wonder if the Emotiva PT1 pre-amp is the weak link? Using B&K St-140 mono blocks for amps which I am happy with along with VPI JR turntable and Audiolab CD player/Schiit DAC. Would I hear a significant upgrade in sound if I was to buy a better pre-amp? Thanks Howie No one can tell you what will make it sound better…… Only your own ears can tell the story but there’s always a few things that can be talked about Most pre-amplifiers on this level will deliver nominally flat so I’m not sure what a difference that would make. I did take a look at the specs on those loudspeakers of yours. I could add to the discussion that according to The company those speakers reached down to 38Hz.. That’s more than enough for all types of music in general, but even in music and not necessarily home theater reaching down to 15Hz Ain’t such a bad deal. My most favorite of all things in this game that I did was getting into subwoofers. ….. And although the main reason for doing that as with most was for film, but in the meantime, reaching down that low had me nearly losing my mind with some of my collected music material over the years where there was plenty of low frequency material that never before I had heard and just having the system as a whole being able to respond down that low was for music a revelation.…… Oh yeah and I like the movies too lol |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Apr 17, 2024 10:21:06 GMT -5
There is one thing worth noting... specifically about PHONO preamps. A LINE LEVEL preamp, without EQ or tone controls, is a relatively simple device. It simply accepts a line level signal, reduces or increases the level of that signal, and passes on the result. This is something that any reasonably well-designed circuit should be able to do with little or no audible coloration. And, in most cases, the impedances involved are quite benign, so there should be little or no interaction with the source or the next device in the signal chain. A PHONO preamp is almost the opposite situation... The source itself is a phono cartridge, which is an electro-mechanical transducer, and so is extremely sensitive to the impedance characteristic of its load. (And, because of this, the connection between the phono cartridge and preamp is the one place where interconnects WILL often sound different - depending on their capacitance.) The signal itself is at a very low level, and so prone to noise issues. RIAA equalization, which is used on ALL vinyl albums, requires almost 40 dB of "EQ" across the audio band. This means that the phono preamp must apply an equivalent amount of equalization during playback. It's a lot easier to design a line stage, which is FLAT within a fraction of a dB, than to design a phono stage, which can apply 40 dB of EQ, and do so CORRECTLY within a fraction of a dB. (And remember that, at the same time, it must deal with the noise issues associated with handling a very low level input signal.) This is the reason why so many phono preamps sound so very different from each other. And, on top of all that, vinyl albums are quite often not recorded with "perfect RIAA equalization" to begin with. With very early albums there are actually several slightly different versions of the standard. And, even beyond that, the RIAA equalization in the equipment used to record vinyl albums wasn't always that accurate either. The short answer is that the phono stage in the PT1 is actually quite good... But, with phono preamps, it's not always as simple as "performance: good or bad". It is not unusual to hear significant differences between phono preamps of "similar quality". It's also not unusual to find that a certain phono preamp simply sounds better (or worse) with a certain cartridge. I would say, in all honesty, that the phono stage in the PT1 is "pretty good"... And our separate XPS-1 (which is around $200 - for just the phono preamp) is a little bit better... (You can spend $20k on a phono preamp... but you'll find that, even at that price, not everyone is equally impressed with the way it sounds.) (You can also spend over $10k on a cartridge... and, like speakers, phono cartridges tend to sound quite different from each other.) There is obviously a balance concerning where to spend your money... and what that money will buy you. But, again, especially with phono preamps, there is a lot of variation, and it doesn't necessarily correlate with price. (This is a nice way of saying that you shouldn't even consider buying an expensive phono preamp unless it includes a return option if you don't like how it sounds in your system.) Hello, I am quite pleased with my stereo setup, but something has been bothering me. Having spent a lot of money on some Klipsch Forte IVs, I now wonder if the Emotiva PT1 pre-amp is the weak link? Using B&K St-140 mono blocks for amps which I am happy with along with VPI JR turntable and Audiolab CD player/Schiit DAC. Would I hear a significant upgrade in sound if I was to buy a better pre-amp? Thanks Howie There can be no doubt that preamps can make huge sound differences, but the synergy of the overall system can be a limiting factor. If you are primarily a stereo and turntable guy the good news is there are a limitless supply of extraordinary stereo preamps. You might even like tubes. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Apr 17, 2024 10:27:33 GMT -5
I was trying to be tactful... but I agree entirely. I'm glad that you're enjoying the sound of your Klipsch Forte's ... But they are far from being a neutral speaker - and so do have their own "sound"... And the same is true for pretty much ALL phono cartridges - which also each tend to have their own sound signature... And, yes, the same is true for phono preamps, although to a somewhat lesser degree... Therefore, at this point, you are not really in a situation of "finding the weakest link"... It's more a matter of "finding the combination that makes your system sound the way YOU like it". If you like the way your Forte's sound, but not the clarity of the bass, and you play lots of stuff with low bass, you might even consider adding a good subwoofer. (This gives you the benefits of "offloading the low bass to the sub" and of being able to locate the sub where the low bass sounds the best in your particular listening room.) Hello, I am quite pleased with my stereo setup, but something has been bothering me. Having spent a lot of money on some Klipsch Forte IVs, I now wonder if the Emotiva PT1 pre-amp is the weak link? Using B&K St-140 mono blocks for amps which I am happy with along with VPI JR turntable and Audiolab CD player/Schiit DAC. Would I hear a significant upgrade in sound if I was to buy a better pre-amp? Thanks Howie I don’t think so. I’m glad you are enjoying the forte. However if you are looking for clearer bass then your forte is the weak spot. The emotiva t2 would be a good upgrade imo. However the tone is very different so it may not be to your taste. Also if you haven’t explored room treatments that will be the best improvement for the $. It will improve every aspect of your sound. |
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Post by miata57 on Apr 17, 2024 13:15:57 GMT -5
Thanks to everyone for your comments. I am using a sub. The SVS SB-3000 sealed sub and I enjoy this addition.
Nothing else like playing a good recording and sitting back and enjoying (and a cold beer IPA)
Thanks again
Howie
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2024 10:53:38 GMT -5
I'm not sure what you were unhappy with. The Forte IVs can be rather bright if towed in. You might try starting them out flush with no tow in. Some seem to like them with a very small tow in. With the PRs, they can be placed closer to a wall than most speakers of that size. I'd still avoid corner loading. I'd start with a cheap phone app like House Curve to get an ideal what your room is doing before you drop any more money on things. As far as room treatment. Always a good idea, but I'd start with just 1st wall reflections, and behind your seating area first. If you have hard floors, a large rug and maybe carpet padding under it.
If you want to fine tune things, maybe get a USB mic and use REW. I have nothing against auto room correction, but I'd start with the simple and cheaper items first, and only go room correction if you still aren't happy. Equipment and gear synergy is a real thing, but if you don't get an ideal of what you don't like using measurements, throwing money at a problem and hoping something will stick isn't the best way to go either.
The Forte IVs are also known for not liking source material that isn't very good. The same is true about any revealing speakers.
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Post by localnet on Apr 21, 2024 7:48:05 GMT -5
Thanks to everyone for your comments. I am using a sub. The SVS SB-3000 sealed sub and I enjoy this addition. Nothing else like playing a good recording and sitting back and enjoying (and a cold beer IPA) Thanks again Howie May I suggest you take a look at the PS Audio Stellar Gaincell DAC/Preamp? PS Audio, I believe discontinued them for some reason, but they can be found on the used market. My buddy played with the PT-1 and returned it. My buddy Ed has been in the audio racket since the 70's, and his house looks like a high end HiFi shop. He is retired and single, and likes to mess around with gear, and is very impressed with some of the more inexpensive gear out there, hence the purchase of the PT-1. He paired it up with a few pieces, and it just did not work for him. He went back to his PS Audio Gaincell. He is the one that turned me on to this Gaincell DAC/Preamp. I cannot get over how good this thing sounds, and the few folks I turned on to this Gaincell have all raved about it. I picked mine up used, they are out there, in black or silver. If you are a measurement guy, the PS Audio Stellar Gaincell was totally trashed over at Amir's site, I think they cut the panther off at the knees, it measured that bad. I think they should have actually listened to it. I use mine with a pair of Zu DW6 Supremes, and am currently using the DAC of the Gaincell, until my new active crossover arrives, with my old Emotiva USP-1 preamp, Emo first gen XPA2 amp and a pair of Magnepan LRS+ speakers. I also own a pair of the SB3000 subs, and a pair of the REL T-Zero MKIII, those little tiny things, and they are going to replace these SB3000's, as they totally vanish in the room and are much more pleasing to the ear. These stupid little 6.5" subs pack a punch, at least in my room. Back to the Gaincell, the DAC in this thing is beyond impressive. It walked all over my Venus II 12th, my Bel Canto, the Ares II, Schiit Gumby, Cambridge... My buddy Ed has the same issue, it just keeps coming back into the system. Then the preamp side is just the icing on the cake, Class A biased and the entire package just sounds so sweet. I think it would impress you, especially with the Forte's. I would also suggest adding an active crossover, the Rolls SX45 is a good one to cut your teeth on. It is $109 on Amazon or Parts Express. This really opened up the sound, it is dead silent and just allows everything to breathe. I would also look at a tube amp, I use a little Cayin EL84 unit I picked up on Drop.com for $500, it sounds incredible with the Zu's, and I would imagine it would sound just as good on those Forte's Just my .02, and a a lot of trial and error. |
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Post by 405x5 on Apr 21, 2024 11:38:52 GMT -5
Thanks to everyone for your comments. I am using a sub. The SVS SB-3000 sealed sub and I enjoy this addition. Nothing else like playing a good recording and sitting back and enjoying (and a cold beer IPA) Thanks again Howie It’s nice to hear a good report regarding SVS subwoofers. Have Velodyne And some years ago, when the whole “LiDAR” Thing happened thing popped up I thought I would be out of luck and would need to look elsewhere. I did my homework and came up with SVS as my future go to. As it turns out, it’s now velodyne acoustics and product services and support are readily available in the United States. That being said if I need to replace most likely, I’ll go with SVS I LIKE THEIR STUFF AND I’M MORE THAN HAPPY TO MIX IT UP A BIT. |
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Post by miata57 on Apr 23, 2024 14:42:48 GMT -5
Thanks for the information on the PS Audio. Seems to always come down to having the money lol, Everyone has given me things to consider, so again thanks for that!
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Post by audiosyndrome on Apr 23, 2024 17:16:22 GMT -5
Thanks for the information on the PS Audio. Seems to always come down to having the money lol, Everyone has given me things to consider, so again thanks for that! The PS Audio Gain Cell DAC is third from the bottom of 175 DACs measured by Audio Science Review. Its distortion is grossly bad. Second and third harmonic distortion at -minus 70 dB!! It’s a DAC for tube (harmonic distortion) lovers. DON’T. Russ |
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Post by miata57 on Apr 24, 2024 15:15:29 GMT -5
The EverSolo DMP-A8 Network Audio Streamer seems popular enough. I imagine it would be worth a listen
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Apr 25, 2024 5:22:17 GMT -5
Hello, I am quite pleased with my stereo setup, but something has been bothering me. Having spent a lot of money on some Klipsch Forte IVs, I now wonder if the Emotiva PT1 pre-amp is the weak link? Using B&K St-140 mono blocks for amps which I am happy with along with VPI JR turntable and Audiolab CD player/Schiit DAC. Would I hear a significant upgrade in sound if I was to buy a better pre-amp? Thanks Howie It’s the nature of this journey. Some upgrades will have a bigger impact than others and a preamp is one that can make a big difference and yes it comes down to money. However, if you focus on what sounds good vs what doesn’t then you may avoid the upgraditis syndrome and save a lot of money in the process 😬. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2024 16:00:23 GMT -5
Hello, I am quite pleased with my stereo setup, but something has been bothering me. Having spent a lot of money on some Klipsch Forte IVs, I now wonder if the Emotiva PT1 pre-amp is the weak link? Using B&K St-140 mono blocks for amps which I am happy with along with VPI JR turntable and Audiolab CD player/Schiit DAC. Would I hear a significant upgrade in sound if I was to buy a better pre-amp? Thanks Howie It’s the nature of this journey. Some upgrades will have a bigger impact than others and a preamp is one that can make a big difference and yes it comes down to money. However, if you focus on what sounds good vs what doesn’t then you may avoid the upgraditis syndrome and save a lot of money in the process 😬. I have to agree. Upgraditis and chasing the audiophile dragon can be an endless money pit. You need to focus on diminished returns. Perhaps you could try and go into as much detail as possible about what you don't like about the sound? The Forte IVs are very forward / live sounding speakers. I assume you demo'd them first? |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Apr 25, 2024 17:01:05 GMT -5
I'm afraid I have to second the suggestion of "giving the speakers a good hard listen"... Here's the thing... Speakers tend to have a sort of "personality" that goes beyond merely frequency response and distortion. Room correction or equalization can correct frequency response or even out assorted bumps and dips. But it CANNOT change the basic character of a speaker. So for example... Some people LIKE the way Klipsch speakers sound... and some don't. (Klipsch speakers tend to sound very dynamic an d punchy... but a little bit shouty and forward.) And some people like the way Magneplanars sound... and some don't. (Magneplanars tend to sound extremely airy and open... but sometimes a bit too much so for some tastes.) But you CANNOT make a Klipsch speaker sound like a Magneplanar... or vice versa... They are just too different... and the things that make them different are not all the sort of things you can change with EQ or room correction. And trying to make either of those sound like the other by endlessly changing and tweaking your electronics would be both expensive and largely pointless. Speakers are the single component that has the most to do with "the basic character of how your system sounds". So it's REALLY a good idea to make sure you've gotten that part right FIRST. In other words, if there's something that you REALLY DON'T LIKE about the way your system sounds... Then the most likely cause is the speakers... The next most likely cause is room acoustics... And ALL of the electronics fall somewhere below that in the list. Also, to be quite blunt, forget about what the reviewers say, or what anyone else tells you, and especially what the manufacturer says... YOU'RE the one who's going to be listening to your system... So YOU are the one who it has to make happy... (And, odds are, numbers and claims printed on a piece of paper, or a computer screen, aren't going to do it.) It’s the nature of this journey. Some upgrades will have a bigger impact than others and a preamp is one that can make a big difference and yes it comes down to money. However, if you focus on what sounds good vs what doesn’t then you may avoid the upgraditis syndrome and save a lot of money in the process 😬. I have to agree. Upgraditis and chasing the audiophile dragon can be an endless money pit. You need to focus on diminished returns. Perhaps you could try and go into as much detail as possible about what you don't like about the sound? The Forte IVs are very forward / live sounding speakers. I assume you demo'd them first? |
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