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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 27, 2024 11:37:54 GMT -5
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Post by LuisV on Aug 27, 2024 12:52:56 GMT -5
I saw the announcement yesterday, it seems interesting and can certainly displace Sonos, at least in my house. I'm tempted as I can't stand the new Sonos app.
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Post by tropicallutefisk on Aug 27, 2024 14:49:24 GMT -5
I must be one of the fortunate ones. My Sonos office system still works well. I did have a few Sirius XM and Tidal log in issues but all has been good since re-logging in a couple times.
This new player in the game looks encouraging though.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 27, 2024 16:28:06 GMT -5
I saw the announcement yesterday, it seems interesting and can certainly displace Sonos, at least in my house. I'm tempted as I can't stand the new Sonos app. I like it too, but I hate the idea of another box for every speaker pair, I’d like to see an 8 channel version. Also hoping it’s class D. |
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Post by LuisV on Aug 27, 2024 16:42:37 GMT -5
I saw the announcement yesterday, it seems interesting and can certainly displace Sonos, at least in my house. I'm tempted as I can't stand the new Sonos app. I like it too, but I hate the idea of another box for every speaker pair, I’d like to see an 8 channel version. Also hoping it’s class D. Based on the specs, size and fact it's in a plastic housing, I can only assume Class D. Two can fit side by side in a rack, so a single 2U chassis with 8 more channels should be on their roadmap as they are thinking about distributed audio. I believe Storm or Grimani Systems does audio via ethernet, so curious if these amps are being developed with that in mind. |
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Post by LuisV on Aug 27, 2024 16:45:35 GMT -5
I must be one of the fortunate ones. My Sonos office system still works well. I did have a few Sirius XM and Tidal log in issues but all has been good since re-logging in a couple times. This new player in the game looks encouraging though. The app works, but it's very very finicky... nothing like it was before the update as that version was pretty rock solid. We have 6 Sonos audio zones and switching between them, grouping them, simply trying to make music play becomes frustrating for the wife and kids. I use Roon, so I can avoid the Sonos app, but the wife and kids long for the simplicity and robustness of the previous version. |
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Post by 405x5 on Aug 28, 2024 8:38:11 GMT -5
I saw the announcement yesterday, it seems interesting and can certainly displace Sonos, at least in my house. I'm tempted as I can't stand the new Sonos app. Yes! (You have me thinking more about the “app”. Rather than the amp)! Sonos really dropped the ball initially with the new app. And finally, the updates have made it pretty much as good as it was in the beginning, which begs the question…… What a waste of time, except for one thing. I have the Sonos move and it bugged me beyond anything that I couldn’t pair it with Bluetooth to my Sony UHPH1, which has Bluetooth on board the player and allows me to do things like listen to the audio/video commentary from Blu-ray or DVDs without turning the big system back on. I gave it a try and with the updates and everything. Sonos has done it now pairs after years to my Sony so at least something came out of it all. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Aug 28, 2024 12:32:11 GMT -5
I have 5 Sonos zones, with a mix of the old Sonos Connects and Sonos Amps. My gear is so old the newest controller doesn't work with them, so that may be why I have survived the issues with the app update. But...if I had to do it all over again - I'd have several R-Pi streamers running Roon, and buy inexpensive but effective amps to use. I have Roon anyway, so it would be a no-brainer. Mark |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Aug 28, 2024 12:37:42 GMT -5
I saw the announcement yesterday, it seems interesting and can certainly displace Sonos, at least in my house. I'm tempted as I can't stand the new Sonos app. I like it too, but I hate the idea of another box for every speaker pair, I’d like to see an 8 channel version. Also hoping it’s class D. I originally thought this also. But, with my house, I have 5 different Sonos zones (and 3 other Roon-based audio locations), and not all were hard-wired when I built my house 24 years ago. In fact, 2 didn't even exist but now do thanks to some additions I made to the house. And a 3rd existed but w/o sound originally (what was I thinking?). After living with my system over the years, I like separate amps for separate locations that are groupable like Sonos and Roon allow. But, that's me. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 28, 2024 19:51:39 GMT -5
I like it too, but I hate the idea of another box for every speaker pair, I’d like to see an 8 channel version. Also hoping it’s class D. I originally thought this also. But, with my house, I have 5 different Sonos zones (and 3 other Roon-based audio locations), and not all were hard-wired when I built my house 24 years ago. In fact, 2 didn't even exist but now do thanks to some additions I made to the house. And a 3rd existed but w/o sound originally (what was I thinking?). After living with my system over the years, I like separate amps for separate locations that are groupable like Sonos and Roon allow. But, that's me. We also built our house about that time! If we hadn’t run zone speaker wire back to a central location, then a distributed model might make sense. But I currently have four zones driven off a single box, and I’d like to replace that with a ‘modern’ box with at least the same channel count, and preferably more. Higher channel counts are more efficient, and have fewer input, network, and power cables to manage. There are now quite a few of these two channel boxes, so that model is covered. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 28, 2024 23:27:30 GMT -5
I like it too, but I hate the idea of another box for every speaker pair, I’d like to see an 8 channel version. Also hoping it’s class D. Based on the specs, size and fact it's in a plastic housing, I can only assume Class D. Two can fit side by side in a rack, so a single 2U chassis with 8 more channels should be on their roadmap as they are thinking about distributed audio. I believe Storm or Grimani Systems does audio via ethernet, so curious if these amps are being developed with that in mind. So are they using an open protocol? What can talk to it? Granted it’s a (licensed) ‘Apple thing’, but wouldn’t ‘wired AirPlay 2’ be considered ‘audio via Ethernet’? That’s how I’d use these boxes (like I use my AirPort Express now), though I’d also hook my RMC Zone out to the analog in. |
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Post by LuisV on Aug 29, 2024 10:04:17 GMT -5
Found it... it was Grimani and Storm Audio from Cedia 2023. Think about it... a single CAT6 cable out of the processor carrying all audio signals to a standard network switch and from there, to the amps... sounds good to me. From the way Grimani explains how to define which signal goes where, it sounds very similar to any software based managed network solution and when Ubiquiti announced their new amp, the light bulb went off. Ubiquiti's implementation appears to use a separate app for these amps and not the Unifi console to manage their distributed audio; however, I can see it merging together in the future as they have been integrating everything into their UI. I dunno, it may seem far fetched to most folks, but I for one can see this being the future. A low voltage solution for distributed audio that is IP addressable, makes total sense to me. Place all equipment in a centralize closet, run a single ethernet cable into the HT space, add a network switch in that room, add active speakers with an ethernet port or an IP based amp in that room, and off you go. Want to upgrade the number of speakers in that room, if the switch has sufficient ports, simply run more CAT6 within that room. www.trinnov.com/en/blog/posts/audio-over-ip-for-home-theater-applications/ |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 29, 2024 16:54:27 GMT -5
How about just running an Ethernet cable to the TV.... Then using Ethernet instead of eARC and an HDMI cable to get the audio back to the processor. Obviously, if both audio and video came in on an Ethernet cable it should be simple for the audio alone to go out that way. (Or just run one Ethernet cable to the TV, and one to the processor, and just synchronize the content itself?) The catch there is that HDMI satisfies the copy protection requirements of being "an encrypted audio path"... And, as of now, "everybody is using it". It would take a lot of work to develop a new Ethernet-based system, design equipment to use it, then get it certified. And, apparently, there just isn't enough market or demand for it in the consumer market. However... for a "network distributed audio solution"... check out something called Dante... Ethernet to the speaker... Low voltage power distribution... Centralized control via IP-connected devices... That ecosystem basically already exists... I've never played with it, but it seems very cool, and several vendors DO support it... It's been around, and in studios, for a while... But it's expensive... And hasn't caught on for home equipment yet... Found it... it was Grimani and Storm Audio from Cedia 2023. Think about it... a single CAT6 cable out of the processor carrying all audio signals to a standard network switch and from there, to the amps... sounds good to me. From the way Grimani explains how to define which signal goes where, it sounds very similar to any software based managed network solution and when Ubiquiti announced their new amp, the light bulb went off. Ubiquiti's implementation appears to use a separate app for these amps and not the Unifi console to manage their distributed audio; however, I can see it merging together in the future as they have been integrating everything into their UI. I dunno, it may seem far fetched to most folks, but I for one can see this being the future. A low voltage solution for distributed audio that is IP addressable, makes total sense to me. Place all equipment in a centralize closet, run a single ethernet cable into the HT space, add a network switch in that room, add active speakers with an ethernet port or an IP based amp in that room, and off you go. Want to upgrade the number of speakers in that room, if the switch has sufficient ports, simply run more CAT6 within that room. www.trinnov.com/en/blog/posts/audio-over-ip-for-home-theater-applications/ |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 29, 2024 17:02:12 GMT -5
Apple Airplay is specifically a protocol designed for wireless audio... and it has some pretty serious drawbacks and limitations. And it's proprietary... and APPLE proprietary... to boot. Because of that there would be little reason to "adapt it for a wired connection". There are much better... and easier... ways to send audio over an Ethernet connection. TCP/IP over Ethernet itself is a standardized PACKET format. ALl you need to do is to come up with a good standard for the audio part of the deal. If you want to see something that does this sort of thing right... at least so I've heard... Check out Dante... Based on the specs, size and fact it's in a plastic housing, I can only assume Class D. Two can fit side by side in a rack, so a single 2U chassis with 8 more channels should be on their roadmap as they are thinking about distributed audio. I believe Storm or Grimani Systems does audio via ethernet, so curious if these amps are being developed with that in mind. So are they using an open protocol? What can talk to it? Granted it’s a (licensed) ‘Apple thing’, but wouldn’t ‘wired AirPlay 2’ be considered ‘audio via Ethernet’? That’s how I’d use these boxes (like I use my AirPort Express now), though I’d also hook my RMC Zone out to the analog in. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 30, 2024 9:31:30 GMT -5
Apple Airplay is specifically a protocol designed for wireless audio... and it has some pretty serious drawbacks and limitations. And it's proprietary... and APPLE proprietary... to boot. Because of that there would be little reason to "adapt it for a wired connection". There are much better... and easier... ways to send audio over an Ethernet connection. TCP/IP over Ethernet itself is a standardized PACKET format. ALl you need to do is to come up with a good standard for the audio part of the deal. If you want to see something that does this sort of thing right... at least so I've heard... Check out Dante... So are they using an open protocol? What can talk to it? Granted it’s a (licensed) ‘Apple thing’, but wouldn’t ‘wired AirPlay 2’ be considered ‘audio via Ethernet’? That’s how I’d use these boxes (like I use my AirPort Express now), though I’d also hook my RMC Zone out to the analog in. AirPlay 2 already works over a wired only Ethernet connection, does not require WiFi, and is a standard that’s supported by a large number of vendors besides Apple. I can currently AirPlay 2 to and from my Ethernet only TVs, and (relative to this thread), to a wired AirPort Express that feeds one of my Zone Amp’s. So I can send an audio signal, totally on Ethernet from an TV or Mac, or it can start on WiFi from an iPhone or iPad, and see a wired only endpoint as a ‘speaker’. So in my opinion, AirPlay 2 fits the definition of a ‘Network Audio Protocol’ (though it also can carry video). That it’s called AirPlay may be misleading, as it’s not limited to WiFi. The main reason a product like this UniFi Amp (and Sonos for that matter) interests me, is that they support AirPlay 2, however neither has the density I’d like to see in a zone/whole house amp. All that said, like Bluetooth (and also probably because it can carry video), AirPlay 2 is lossy (what are the other ‘serious drawbacks and limitations’?). I’ve also heard people tout the strengths of Dante, and it or something like it, may be a better choice for a full featured, multichannel audio protocol. I still have to check out LuisV post. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 30, 2024 10:07:25 GMT -5
I dunno, it may seem far fetched to most folks, but I for one can see this being the future. A low voltage solution for distributed audio that is IP addressable, makes total sense to me. Place all equipment in a centralize closet, run a single ethernet cable into the HT space, add a network switch in that room, add active speakers with an ethernet port or an IP based amp in that room, and off you go. Want to upgrade the number of speakers in that room, if the switch has sufficient ports, simply run more CAT6 within that room. … Haven’t watched the video yet, but I think there are many PoE opportunities like this, and have thought the same. Especially now with PoE++ potentially delivering up to 100W, with an efficient powered amp/speaker you could deliver some seriously good sound, especially for surround, Atmos, or zone duties. A standard, supported network audio protocol would make this possible. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 30, 2024 15:10:59 GMT -5
You probably know more about AirPlay than I do. However, to be fair, when I look at your list of devices that can use it, there always seems to be some "Apple" involved. Therefore it is only useful to someone who has at least some Apple devices... It may work over Ethernet but there always seems to have to be at least one Apple device involved. So, for someone who does NOT own an iPhone, or an iPad, or an iMac, and doesn't want to, it really wouldn't work. (I guess you could say that my problem with Apple AirPlay is the APPLE part and not the AIR part...) I'm pretty sure I can't use AirPlay to play music from my Android phone, or my Windows computer, for example. So, in other words, it exists "inside the Apple ecosystem". I know that the WiFi version of AirPlay is also limited to something like 48k... And, to me, being lossy is "a total deal-breaker"... To me the whole point of using Ethernet is that it gives me a solid connection with enough bandwidth that I can have LOSSLESS audio at a decent bit rate. And it seems to require you to use an APPLE AirPlay router. As I understand it Dante is more its own ecosystem... You would need a Dante controller... and you can buy "Dante enabled" speakers... but you can also buy a "Dante dongle" that will work with other devices. And you could connect two regular audio devices together using Dante dongles... without a controller... if you only want a direct connection. And, once you get past that barrier, all of the connections, and routers, and switches, are all standard Ethernet network accessories... They don't have to "support Dante" because Dante uses a "plain old Ethernet connection".) So you can use Dante with whatever gear you have or want to use. The only real catch seems to be that Dante components ALL seem to be quite expensive (like $200 for a single two channel adapter). Apple Airplay is specifically a protocol designed for wireless audio... and it has some pretty serious drawbacks and limitations. And it's proprietary... and APPLE proprietary... to boot. Because of that there would be little reason to "adapt it for a wired connection". There are much better... and easier... ways to send audio over an Ethernet connection. TCP/IP over Ethernet itself is a standardized PACKET format. ALl you need to do is to come up with a good standard for the audio part of the deal. If you want to see something that does this sort of thing right... at least so I've heard... Check out Dante... AirPlay 2 already works over a wired only Ethernet connection, does not require WiFi, and is a standard that’s supported by a large number of vendors besides Apple. I can currently AirPlay 2 to and from my Ethernet only TVs, and (relative to this thread), to a wired AirPort Express that feeds one of my Zone Amp’s. So I can send an audio signal, totally on Ethernet from an TV or Mac, or it can start on WiFi from an iPhone or iPad, and see a wired only endpoint as a ‘speaker’. So in my opinion, AirPlay 2 fits the definition of a ‘Network Audio Protocol’ (though it also can carry video). That it’s called AirPlay may be misleading, as it’s not limited to WiFi. The main reason a product like this UniFi Amp (and Sonos for that matter) interests me, is that they support AirPlay 2, however neither has the density I’d like to see in a zone/whole house amp. All that said, like Bluetooth (and also probably because it can carry video), AirPlay 2 is lossy (what are the other ‘serious drawbacks and limitations’?). I’ve also heard people tout the strengths of Dante, and it or something like it, may be a better choice for a full featured, multichannel audio protocol. I still have to check out @luisv’s post. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 30, 2024 18:18:07 GMT -5
… I know that the WiFi version of AirPlay is also limited to something like 48k... And, to me, being lossy is "a total deal-breaker"... To me the whole point of using Ethernet is that it gives me a solid connection with enough bandwidth that I can have LOSSLESS audio at a decent bit rate. And it seems to require you to use an APPLE AirPlay router. I agree that being lossy is a limitation, to me that relegates it to less-critical listening, which I seem to do a lot more of these days (car, ski helmet, backpack speakers, and my ‘zone’ speakers). So I wouldn’t call lossy a deal breaker, but would maybe say ‘tier 2’. AirPlay doesn’t require a router per se, but advertises with the Bonjour service, BTLE, or peer to peer. I’d agree, there needs to be at least one Apple device, in relation to this thread, say an iPhone to this new UniFi AirPlay Amp. So an Apple source, and an Apple or 3rd Party endpoint; but honestly I don’t know all the 3rd parties that license AirPlay 2, and maybe someone has a source device. I like Ethernet because it’s reliable, secure, and not WiFi, I wire every device that has a port, leaving WiFi for devices without an option, but I feel WiFi has enough bandwidth for any traffic we’re describing (say streaming a UHD w/DV & Atmos disc rip). So my enthusiasm for AirPlay 2 is because it’s here now, works with all of my devices and is very flexible. But we do need a robust network audio protocol that can send multichannel uncompressed audio at high bitrates and depths, maybe Dante is it, maybe the Grimani that LuisV posted, maybe other players. I’d hope there’s some consortium of manufacturers discussing their needs and what they can support. Presumably, if Emotiva jumped on the band wagon, you’d have processors with network outputs, power amps with network inputs and DACs built in, and maybe a powered speaker with a PoE++ DAC/Amp … Christmas of 2025? |
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