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Post by AudioHTIT on Nov 23, 2024 11:21:16 GMT -5
I’m not sure if this is a rhetorical question, but If it turned out to be true, then all the hand wringing that some have expressed about the Bose acquisition would be justified.. That is one way of looking at it. The other way is that the autoformer issue would be gratefully dead... Then we could move on to 'W hy did McIntosh have to promote their use, long after they were of any use...?'. THIS isn't a rhetorical question. My feeling is that if Bose decided to ‘inject’ or ‘interfere’ with McIntosh’s operation, to the point where they’re redesigning the amplifiers to that significant a degree, it would not be a good thing. |
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Post by monkumonku on Nov 23, 2024 11:34:38 GMT -5
That is one way of looking at it. The other way is that the autoformer issue would be gratefully dead... Then we could move on to 'W hy did McIntosh have to promote their use, long after they were of any use...?'. THIS isn't a rhetorical question. My feeling is that if Bose decided to ‘inject’ or ‘interfere’ with McIntosh’s operation, to the point where they’re redesigning the amplifiers to that significant a degree, it would not be a good thing. Even if the redesign or other change was supposedly an improvement, interfering with McIntosh's autonomy would not be a good thing. It would be like when Coca Cola came out with the new Coke back in the 80's. You don't mess with something iconic. |
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Post by PaulBe on Nov 23, 2024 11:53:03 GMT -5
That is one way of looking at it. The other way is that the autoformer issue would be gratefully dead... Then we could move on to 'W hy did McIntosh have to promote their use, long after they were of any use...?'. THIS isn't a rhetorical question. My feeling is that if Bose decided to ‘inject’ or ‘interfere’ with McIntosh’s operation, to the point where they’re redesigning the amplifiers to that significant a degree, it would not be a good thing. Agreed. The Autoformer option should be offered as long as it is profitable. This answers my question - "Why did McIntosh have to promote their use, long after they were of any use...?" Everyone leaves a legacy. McIntosh will leave theirs. Audiophiles get what they want. McIntosh gets what they want. Win-win. McIntosh does make amplifiers without the Autoformers. Digital amps too. Jus sayin'. Let's just have an honest discussion. I can write about the lack of current technical value of Autoformers while acknowledging they are still desired by audiophiles and profitable to McIntosh. I didn't buy my McIntosh MP100 phono preamp because it's the best phono preamp on earth. It serves all my purposes; with the included features; sounds as good as I need; at a price I was willing to pay; along with having a look that I like. I bought a piece of the McIntosh mystic. I don't need to prop it up as a chip on my shoulder, or display it like a religious icon. The Emotiva phono pre, at a fraction of the price, is probably just as good in it's core function. I'll get to find out when I receive the G4P... Coming... My phono playback gear costs much more than a RMC-1+ will cost. It's kind of disgusting. But, this is a hobby. |
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Post by audiobill on Nov 23, 2024 12:32:17 GMT -5
One last thing - like them or not, Bose is evidently a well managed company, with $3 billion in annual sales globally. As a businessman, I feel that they didn't buy McIntosh and Sonus Faber to destroy them, but to leverage the brand and McIntosh gets access to huge amounts of capital to further build on their huge successes. They are in no trouble at all, and have even recently ramped up their production in Binghamton materially.
Win-Win I say,buy with confidence.
And,if anyone would like to trade their McIntosh phono preamp even for my Emotiva XPS-1 in excellent condition wih OBM, please just pm me!
Bill
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Post by PaulBe on Nov 23, 2024 12:40:15 GMT -5
One last thing - like them or not, Bose is evidently a well managed company, with $3 billion in annual sales globally. As a businessman, I feel that they didn't buy McIntosh and Sonus Faber to destroy them, but to leverage the brand and McIntosh gets access to huge amounts of capital to further build on their huge successes. They are in no trouble at all, and have even recently ramped up their production in Binghamton materially. Win-Win I say,buy with confidence. And,if anyone would like to trade their McIntosh phono preamp even for my Emotiva XPS-1 in excellent condition wih OBM, please just pm me! Bill One last thing from me - like it or not - No trade on my McIntosh MP100 phono preamp.  |
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Post by audiobill on Nov 23, 2024 12:41:45 GMT -5
Aw, darn, I thought I was in!!  |
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Post by Boomzilla on Nov 23, 2024 17:42:55 GMT -5
Okie-Dokie. How about those single ended push-pull amps that audiobill mentioned? Any experience with them? Did your C-41 have an autoformer at the output? Nope - preamps don't get autoformers in ANY brand. Why? Because they're playing into a fixed resistance at the amplifier input, unlike playing into speakers whose impedance varies all over the place. SET amps? I've never heard one. BUT... I modified some tube Heathkits (originally mono integrated amps) into power amps (with the generous help of audiobill). And? Those little ~12W output tube amps drive my Klipsch RP-600m speakers to as loud as I want to listen and sound amazing doing it. Ask garbulky - he's heard them! Gar's comments: emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/840667 |
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Post by mfeust on Nov 24, 2024 12:10:35 GMT -5
Well I am hoping that Bose's superior purchasing power can lower Sonus Faber's $750,000 speakers down to $500,000 and Mcintosh's new $35,000 subwoofer down to $20,000 cause then I'm all in.
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Post by marcl on Nov 24, 2024 12:46:13 GMT -5
2 years. Having been involved in companies that were acquired over the years, unless one of the companies was seriously in disarray and in financial trouble, the story usually is about what great synergies there will be and how nobody wants to interfere in someone else's business. Yeah right ... except for the people who get laid off in consolidation early on. And then ... give it two years to see who doesn't interfere with who. Maybe the end result is positive synergy? Maybe not. It's not about the sound or doing US any favors ... just the bottom line.
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Post by audiobill on Nov 24, 2024 12:48:47 GMT -5
Of course , these are businesses, not charities or govt funded research facilities, after all.
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Post by PaulBe on Nov 24, 2024 13:15:36 GMT -5
Okie-Dokie. How about those single ended push-pull amps that audiobill mentioned? Any experience with them? Did your C-41 have an autoformer at the output? Nope - preamps don't get autoformers in ANY brand. Why? Because they're playing into a fixed resistance at the amplifier input, unlike playing into speakers whose impedance varies all over the place. SET amps? I've never heard one. BUT... I modified some tube Heathkits (originally mono integrated amps) into power amps (with the generous help of audiobill ). And? Those little ~12W output tube amps drive my Klipsch RP-600m speakers to as loud as I want to listen and sound amazing doing it. Ask garbulky - he's heard them! Gar's comments: emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/840667You didn't get my snarky sense of humor concerning Autoformers in your C-41... My modified CJ tube preamp didn't have an Autoformer either... However, old tube line circuits in pro gear did use impedance matching transformers. A solid state amp autoformer doesn't help because you're playing into speakers whose impedance varies all over the place - it actually hurts. It Was a help because different speakers have different impedance ranges, and old solid state amps had limited output stage SOA. It was a protection function for early transistors. It was, and still is, a transitional solution. Solid state amps have fully transitioned. This hasn't been a real problem for decades. Autoformers are now a solution looking for a problem. But, I fully support your right to use amps with Autoformers. More options for the consumer. More profit for McIntosh. Win-win! SET amps are not the single ended push-pull amps that audiobill mentioned. Hint - I've never heard a single ended push-pull amp. BUT... I read the article. Interesting mod project. The only tube amp I owned was an AR D-76. I modified that one. At the time, my speakers were Magnepan MG-2B's. Nice match - Modified CJ preamp, Modified AR D-76, Maggie 2B's . I heard a friends Quad ESL-57 system powered with a homemade Julius Futterman OTL tube amp. That was a trip. Some guy who called himself 'Tube God' absconded with all of Julius's intellectual property. Soon after, Julius died. |
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Post by leonski on Nov 25, 2024 15:00:10 GMT -5
Conflict of Business Models......
Bose is temporary, And considered disposible.
Mc? Can still fix most of what they've ever sold......
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Post by Boomzilla on Nov 25, 2024 15:06:10 GMT -5
At one time that was true about McIntosh, leonski, but in the past couple of decades??? |
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Post by audiobill on Nov 25, 2024 16:57:32 GMT -5
"Mc? Can still fix most of what they've ever sold......"
Still true....
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Nov 25, 2024 17:21:06 GMT -5
OK... just for the record... that's NOT at all the benefit of transformers or autoformers... In fact transformers tend to NOT perform comparatively very well when connected to devices like speakers that have complex impedances or major impedance variations. Transformers are very effective at matching impedances of devices on opposite sides of them... (or connected to different taps or windings) They're used in tube amps because the plate impedances of a typical tube are in the thousands of Ohms... Whereas the voice coil of a typical speaker is in the 4 - 8 Ohm range... So the transformer is used to match the impedances of one to the other... In solid state amplifiers this isn't typically an issue per-se... But the same principle holds true to a lesser degree... Let's say that you have a solid state amplifier that delivers its maximum power into a 3 Ohm load... You can use a transformer to match things so that, whether you connect a 4 Ohm speaker, or an 8 Ohm speaker, the amplifier "sees" a 3 Ohm load. This enables that amplifier to deliver the same maximum rated power into speakers of different impedances. It allowed McIntosh to sell an amp that was rated "100 watts into 4, 8, or 16 Ohms" instead of "100 watts into 4 Ohms; 50 watts into 8 Ohms; and 25 watts into 16 Ohms". And this was a big deal back when a 100 watt solid state amplifier was considered "a big amplifier". Transformers also provide excellent protection against DC appearing at the output in the case of an amplifier fault... Autoformers are somewhat less effective but still help in that way... HOWEVER... transformers and autoformers have several MAJOR down-sides... Audio transformers capable of reasonably large amounts of power tend to be big, heavy, and expensive... Even the absolute best quality audio transformers have significant distortion and phase shift... And, yes, loads with really strange impedances, or impedances that vary wildly, exacerbate these issues... And, yes, these down-sides are really major... An amplifier that can deliver 400 watts into 4 Ohms and 200 watts into 8 Ohms... Literally costs less to make than one with a transformer than can deliver 50 watts into either of those loads... And the one with the transformer will weigh three times as much... And will have much higher phase shift and THD... And much poorer frequency response... And, incidentally, SET amplifiers have an added down-side, which halves their efficiency, while increasing both the cost, and the distortion... If you look at the schematic of a push-pull tube amp... You will see that the plate current from the output tubes flows through the transformer in opposite directions... As a result, while the AC (signal) current of the two tubes, which are driven out of phase, adds together... As a result, the signal produced by both tubes is added together, while a lot of the distortion cancels out. And, because the DC plate current also flows in opposite directions, the magnetic field created by it also cancels out. This reduces the saturation of the transformer, which can be smaller, run cooler, and still produce a LOT less distortion. In a SET amplifier the current only flows in one direction... So neither the core current nor the distortion cancels out... Which is why they need such massive transformers (per watt of output) to keep heat and distortion to "acceptable limits". Okie-Dokie. How about those single ended push-pull amps that audiobill mentioned? Any experience with them? Did your C-41 have an autoformer at the output? Nope - preamps don't get autoformers in ANY brand. Why? Because they're playing into a fixed resistance at the amplifier input, unlike playing into speakers whose impedance varies all over the place. SET amps? I've never heard one. BUT... I modified some tube Heathkits (originally mono integrated amps) into power amps (with the generous help of audiobill ). And? Those little ~12W output tube amps drive my Klipsch RP-600m speakers to as loud as I want to listen and sound amazing doing it. Ask garbulky - he's heard them! Gar's comments: emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/840667 |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Nov 25, 2024 17:35:11 GMT -5
In tube parlance a SET "single ended triode" amplifier is NOT "push-pull". But a "push-pull" tube amplifier usually still runs off of a "single ended power supply". The most popular tube amplifier topology of all time would have to be "the Williamson Ultralinear"... And, for extra credit, look up McIntosh's "Unity Coupled output transformers"... And, if you really want to make your head hurt, look up "Circlotron" amplifiers (made in tubes by several companies... and, more recently, in solid state, by Schiit Audio  ...) ........................ SET amps are not the single ended push-pull amps that audiobill mentioned. Hint - I've never heard a single ended push-pull amp. ........................... |
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Post by KeithL on Nov 25, 2024 17:55:58 GMT -5
You beat me to it... and that is an excellent explanation... But... let's see... 450 watts/channel.... for $9000 . As compared to a bit under $2000 for an XPA-DR2 . It would be interesting to see which one sounds better... (Of course assuming that there is an audible difference.) Transistor power output circuits can match, for example,8-ohm loads directly. This eliminates the need for the output transformer for most manufacturers. However, output stages that are designed to operate into an optimum load of 8 ohms can double or quadruple heat dissipation when operating into 4 or 2 ohm loads. At some frequencies, speakers rated at 8 ohms can dip as low as 4 ohms. 4-ohm systems can dip even lower. This mismatch can cause the amplifier to exceed its thermal dissipation limits. On the other hand, if an amplifier is designed for an optimum load of one or two ohms, a low impedance load would be no problem. However, less power would be available for a speaker having 4 or 8 ohms impedance. Since early output stages were typically connected in a single ended push-pull circuit, one side of the output was always connected to ground. They were designed to work into an optimum load of say 2.1 ohms. The matching autoformer was connected directly to the output. In such amplifiers, the matching output was for 4, 8 and 16 ohms. Other impedances became available in later amplifiers. Full continuous amplifier power could be delivered to each of these loads. There is no danger of exceeding safe limits or overheating. The autoformer also protects speakers from damage in the event of amplifier failure. Should a direct current component appear at the amplifier output, it was shunted by the low DC resistance of the autoformer, instead of passing through the speaker voice coil, which could damage a speaker or even cause a fire. In amplifiers that contain cheap electrolytic capacitors in their power supplies, as many have documented in this forum, this can be a real risk. Although autoformers add extra cost, weight and take up extra space, they assure a safe, optimum match to a variety of speakers. Stereophile, in their review of the MC462 amplifier, says: 'The design element that allows McIntosh to do this has been a technical cornerstone of all their solid-state amps: a single-winding transformer called an autotransformer—or, in the trade lingo arguably coined by McIntosh, an Autoformer. Beginning in 1967 with their first transistor amp, the MC2505, McIntosh has used output-stage Autoformers to optimize impedance matching between output devices and loudspeaker loads, as well as to protect the latter from DC. Fifty-two years later, an output-stage Autoformer allows the company to combine the outputs of multiple push-pull amps in a manner that, they say, has unprecedented distortion-cancelling capabilities. (This is also how the MC462 can deliver the same 450Wpc output to its pairs of 2, 4, or 8 ohm speaker taps.)" And, "Summing up the McIntosh MC462's measured performance is easy: It is an extraordinarily well-engineered, exceptionally powerful amplifier.—John Atkinson" And, typically, "Emotiva's XPA Gen3 amplifier offers high powers with low levels of noise and distortion, at least at frequencies below 10kHz, at a very affordable price. But the amplifier's problems at the top of the audioband bother me. Predicting the subjective effect of this objective behavior is probably an exercise in futility, but I do wonder if it correlates with Herb's finding that the Emotiva sounded "hard and 100% masculine" through two of the speakers he tried with it.—John Atkinson" I realize that @keithl has strong, understandably biased opinions, but facts are facts on the test bench. |
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Post by audiobill on Nov 25, 2024 18:47:09 GMT -5
I hate to say it, but my practically all Mc and Kef Blade system somehow brings me great satisfaction, well beyond solely sonic virtues…
Look, I totally get it, but sitting here bathed in all that Mc goodness makes my wife and me happy and it just
might you too.
For me, it,s like a return on a life well worked and lived, I don,t need to justify it on some abstract technical virtue/
value argument, though I could easily do that too. I started in this in 1963.
Who would like to stop over for a listen and a drink?
peace,
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Post by PaulBe on Nov 25, 2024 19:04:16 GMT -5
In tube parlance a SET "single ended triode" amplifier is NOT "push-pull". But a "push-pull" tube amplifier usually still runs off of a "single ended power supply". The most popular tube amplifier topology of all time would have to be "the Williamson Ultralinear"... And, for extra credit, look up McIntosh's "Unity Coupled output transformers"... And, if you really want to make your head hurt, look up "Circlotron" amplifiers (made in tubes by several companies... and, more recently, in solid state, by Schiit Audio ...) ........................ SET amps are not the single ended push-pull amps that audiobill mentioned. Hint - I've never heard a single ended push-pull amp. ........................... None of it will make my head hurt, but I need a refresher because of dimmer memory. Perhaps I'll go back through my old "Audio Anthology" books from Audio Amateur. Trying to understand Mag Amps when I was in the Navy made my head hurt. Everything old is new again. So. Is Emotive going to get on the Autoformer train? What is that little bug-eyed emoji you used? It reminds me of Timothy Leary. |
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Post by KeithL on Nov 25, 2024 21:33:45 GMT -5
I very much doubt Emotiva will ever have a product with an autoformer in it... Here at Emotiva we try to provide the best "value for money" that we can... And autoformers in solid state amplifiers are the exact opposite... they offer very little benefit... for a LOT of money. And, on top of that, some of their drawbacks are in terms of sound quality... Not only do transformers limit sound quality but they make designing an amplifier with really good sound quality more difficult as well.
At least that's the case for solid state amplifiers... and I doubt we're going to have a go at tubes again any time soon.
(There's really not much case for using autoformers rather than regular transformers in tube designs.)
Incidentally, I don't want anyone to think that I just hate on McIntosh. One of the most expensive pieces of audio gear I ever purchased used was a high-end McIntosh solid state FM tuner.
It was probably the best sounding FM tuner I've ever owned (or heard). I only sold it because, back where I lived in New York, there just weren't any FM stations I found worth listening to.
And, yes, it was an excellent investment, and when I sold it I got back about what I paid for it. And, yes, I though it was attractive too.
I've just never been impressed with how their amplifiers sound. And, no, I haven't listened carefully to their newer models, but I was quite unimpressed by some of their older models that other folks raved about.
The emoji is on the second row in my ProBoards smileys (it's " " - directly under the big toothy smile "D"... (I've always interpreted it as "a big toothy right-up-in-your-face grin"...)
In the Williamson Ultralinear amplifier the screen grids of the output tubes are connected to an extra set of taps on the output transformer. (It's not exactly a brand but a circuit topology named after the guy who thought it up... )
This connection uses that grid to provide negative feedback, which reduces distortion and improves linearity, which makes them sound cleaner. In other designs with tetrodes or pentodes that grid is tied to B+ through a resistor; triodes don't have that grid at all. In order to make an ultralinear amplifier you need output transformers with that tap included on their plate windings.
Unity Coupling was McIntosh's marketing term for a special output transformer. Normally output tubes are "plate coupled"; but they can also be "cathode coupled". With Unity Coupling the output tubes are BOTH plate AND cathode coupled. You actually have one winding in the cathode circuit of the tube, and a separate winding in the plate circuit, both on the output transformer for that channel. I'm sure you can find schematics online if you look...
This gets you a bit more power, eliminates the cathode resistor, and lowers distortion... so you get cleaner sound.
The cost is a very special transformer that nobody else uses. SOME of McIntosh's tube amps used this... but some did not.
Circlotron amps are VERY weird. They have two output devices, each connected to a separate floating power supply, with the output taken from between the cathodes. EVERYTHING floats, including both power supplies, which makes driving the output stage... interesting. The Schiit Mjolnir was a solid state Circlotron amplifier (but the Circlotron circuit dates WAY back...) (I actually heard one of the Electrovoice models... back when I was in high school... it was "vintage" even then... and it was quite impressive.)
In tube parlance a SET "single ended triode" amplifier is NOT "push-pull". But a "push-pull" tube amplifier usually still runs off of a "single ended power supply". The most popular tube amplifier topology of all time would have to be "the Williamson Ultralinear"... And, for extra credit, look up McIntosh's "Unity Coupled output transformers"... And, if you really want to make your head hurt, look up "Circlotron" amplifiers (made in tubes by several companies... and, more recently, in solid state, by Schiit Audio ...) None of it will make my head hurt, but I need a refresher because of dimmer memory. Perhaps I'll go back through my old "Audio Anthology" books from Audio Amateur. Trying to understand Mag Amps when I was in the Navy made my head hurt. Everything old is new again. So. Is Emotive going to get on the Autoformer train? What is that little bug-eyed emoji you used? It reminds me of Timothy Leary. |
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