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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2010 0:25:55 GMT -5
Southpaw, just a shot in the dark here. If you have time and a camera, perhaps you could give us some photos. Maybe we could pick out some speaker placement issues.
Not to talk you out of a speaker change. I just tend to think that the AT's would be more of a lateral move rather than an upgrade. Hope you can bring in one of the AT towers for a direct A/B with the 8.3. That is the real way to see if there is any improvement. That is exactly what I did when I changed from my Axiom's to my Emotiva speakers. It was an eye ear opener!
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Post by southpaw on Jan 22, 2010 8:45:57 GMT -5
Okay, some pictures will probably be helpful. And yes, I'm trying to work on getting a couple AT towers in for comparison. And I also found a local A/V store that has B&Ws so I will check them out next week.
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Post by southpaw on Jan 23, 2010 21:18:26 GMT -5
Well, I didn't have time to take pictures but I did make some adjustments to my setup. My mains are barely toed in now, I moved them out from the wall a couple more inches and raised my center speaker about 4 inches. Reran MCACC on my Pioneer AVR and it noticeably has improved the soundstage. Before running MCACC, I changed my xover to 50hz (from 80) but I just read this from a poster at AVS in the MCACC thread: "Originally Posted by Macfan424 ^^^^ One thing to keep in mind with Pioneer AVR's: If you lower the crossover to 50Hz, you will lose LFE between 50 and 80Hz. (Technically, LFE extends to 120Hz, but most producers roll of the LFE bass above 80Hz, which is one reason THX chose it as their standard. 80Hz has since become the de facto standard for the industry in general.) LFE is not transferred to the main speakers when a sub is available, so lowering the crossover means only the portion of LFE below the crossover point is reproduced.
This effect is not always apparent, though, because it is common practice to include the same lows in the front channels (sometimes more), which masks the effect. However, the main channel lows are meant to be mixed with the LFE, and if the sub is not doing its share, they will lack the punch the producer intended.
Also, turn OFF the THX speaker settings in MCACC unless you have THX certified speakers. These settings affect the crossover slope, as they assume speaker rolloff patterns that non-THX speakers are unlikely to duplicate."
So I guess I will go back to 80hz crossover. I'll play around with it a bit more but these changes have been for the better.
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Jan 23, 2010 21:37:15 GMT -5
I've got an XPA-5 currently driving 8.3 mains, 6.3 center and 2 ERD surrounds. Uncle Sam is going to give me a little more refund than I thought I was going to get and I'm considering an upgrade to an Atlantic Technology 8200e 5.0 system. I can get a great deal on it but I'm still left wondering what sonic differences I might get out of this upgrade. Has anyone heard both? What general opinions are there of what results I will hear. Thanks. My room is acoustically treated and my components are listed in my sig. This is what I would call a waste of money......your not upgrading at all, your going sideways............at best.
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Jan 23, 2010 21:40:43 GMT -5
Well, I didn't have time to take pictures but I did make some adjustments to my setup. My mains are barely toed in now, I moved them out from the wall a couple more inches and raised my center speaker about 4 inches. Reran MCACC on my Pioneer AVR and it noticeably has improved the soundstage. Before running MCACC, I changed my xover to 50hz (from 80) but I just read this from a poster at AVS in the MCACC thread: "Originally Posted by Macfan424 ^^^^ One thing to keep in mind with Pioneer AVR's: If you lower the crossover to 50Hz, you will lose LFE between 50 and 80Hz. (Technically, LFE extends to 120Hz, but most producers roll of the LFE bass above 80Hz, which is one reason THX chose it as their standard. 80Hz has since become the de facto standard for the industry in general.) LFE is not transferred to the main speakers when a sub is available, so lowering the crossover means only the portion of LFE below the crossover point is reproduced. This effect is not always apparent, though, because it is common practice to include the same lows in the front channels (sometimes more), which masks the effect. However, the main channel lows are meant to be mixed with the LFE, and if the sub is not doing its share, they will lack the punch the producer intended. Also, turn OFF the THX speaker settings in MCACC unless you have THX certified speakers. These settings affect the crossover slope, as they assume speaker rolloff patterns that non-THX speakers are unlikely to duplicate." So I guess I will go back to 80hz crossover. I'll play around with it a bit more but these changes have been for the better. Ummmmmmmmm Turn off the THX speaker settings unless you have THX certified speakers? ?? Where was this quoted from? LOL!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2010 23:16:25 GMT -5
Well, I didn't have time to take pictures but I did make some adjustments to my setup. My mains are barely toed in now, I moved them out from the wall a couple more inches and raised my center speaker about 4 inches. Reran MCACC on my Pioneer AVR and it noticeably has improved the soundstage. Before running MCACC, I changed my xover to 50hz (from 80) but I just read this from a poster at AVS in the MCACC thread: "Originally Posted by Macfan424 ^^^^ One thing to keep in mind with Pioneer AVR's: If you lower the crossover to 50Hz, you will lose LFE between 50 and 80Hz. (Technically, LFE extends to 120Hz, but most producers roll of the LFE bass above 80Hz, which is one reason THX chose it as their standard. 80Hz has since become the de facto standard for the industry in general.) LFE is not transferred to the main speakers when a sub is available, so lowering the crossover means only the portion of LFE below the crossover point is reproduced. This effect is not always apparent, though, because it is common practice to include the same lows in the front channels (sometimes more), which masks the effect. However, the main channel lows are meant to be mixed with the LFE, and if the sub is not doing its share, they will lack the punch the producer intended. Also, turn OFF the THX speaker settings in MCACC unless you have THX certified speakers. These settings affect the crossover slope, as they assume speaker rolloff patterns that non-THX speakers are unlikely to duplicate." So I guess I will go back to 80hz crossover. I'll play around with it a bit more but these changes have been for the better. Sorry, but there is a lot of misinformation in this guy's post. This is a very complicated part of speaker setup, correctly matching the sub to your speakers is difficult. IMO, you have a very fine 5.1 speaker system and an excellent amp to start with. Understanding how to adjust your Pioneer receiver is critical. Forget any comments about THX even though your speakers are very close to THX design. This might sound like a lot of work, but I would recommend you do some reading up on proper sub setup including how to do your own speaker/sub measurements using a RS meter to double check the auto setup in your receiver. You are correct to look at the proper speaker placement. Understand clearly what designating the speakers as "large" (sometimes call full range) or "small" means. Your rears and center speakers need to be set as "small" (not large). The 8.3 L&R's can be set to "small" or "large." If your receiver has independent crossover's for all speakers then I would set it to 80Hz for the 6.3 center and 80-90Hz for the ERD-1 rears. Try first the 8.3's set to small with the crossover to 80, then 70 then 60 and perhaps 50 and keep notes as to which sound better. Note that the sub will receive the bass below the crossover setting of 80, 70, 60 or 50. Be sure you have the PC13-Ultra set to crossover "off." Next try with the 8.3 set to "large" and test with the sub setting as shown in the Pioneer manual to "both." (both sub and speakers getting the lower bass). I'm sorry to throw in all this but I still don't think the speakers are the problem. ;D
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Post by southpaw on Jan 25, 2010 8:50:48 GMT -5
Well, I didn't have time to take pictures but I did make some adjustments to my setup. My mains are barely toed in now, I moved them out from the wall a couple more inches and raised my center speaker about 4 inches. Reran MCACC on my Pioneer AVR and it noticeably has improved the soundstage. Before running MCACC, I changed my xover to 50hz (from 80) but I just read this from a poster at AVS in the MCACC thread: "Originally Posted by Macfan424 ^^^^ One thing to keep in mind with Pioneer AVR's: If you lower the crossover to 50Hz, you will lose LFE between 50 and 80Hz. (Technically, LFE extends to 120Hz, but most producers roll of the LFE bass above 80Hz, which is one reason THX chose it as their standard. 80Hz has since become the de facto standard for the industry in general.) LFE is not transferred to the main speakers when a sub is available, so lowering the crossover means only the portion of LFE below the crossover point is reproduced. This effect is not always apparent, though, because it is common practice to include the same lows in the front channels (sometimes more), which masks the effect. However, the main channel lows are meant to be mixed with the LFE, and if the sub is not doing its share, they will lack the punch the producer intended. Also, turn OFF the THX speaker settings in MCACC unless you have THX certified speakers. These settings affect the crossover slope, as they assume speaker rolloff patterns that non-THX speakers are unlikely to duplicate." So I guess I will go back to 80hz crossover. I'll play around with it a bit more but these changes have been for the better. Sorry, but there is a lot of misinformation in this guy's post. This is a very complicated part of speaker setup, correctly matching the sub to your speakers is difficult. IMO, you have a very fine 5.1 speaker system and an excellent amp to start with. Understanding how to adjust your Pioneer receiver is critical. Forget any comments about THX even though your speakers are very close to THX design. This might sound like a lot of work, but I would recommend you do some reading up on proper sub setup including how to do your own speaker/sub measurements using a RS meter to double check the auto setup in your receiver. You are correct to look at the proper speaker placement. Understand clearly what designating the speakers as "large" (sometimes call full range) or "small" means. Your rears and center speakers need to be set as "small" (not large). The 8.3 L&R's can be set to "small" or "large." If your receiver has independent crossover's for all speakers then I would set it to 80Hz for the 6.3 center and 80-90Hz for the ERD-1 rears. Try first the 8.3's set to small with the crossover to 80, then 70 then 60 and perhaps 50 and keep notes as to which sound better. Note that the sub will receive the bass below the crossover setting of 80, 70, 60 or 50. Be sure you have the PC13-Ultra set to crossover "off." Next try with the 8.3 set to "large" and test with the sub setting as shown in the Pioneer manual to "both." (both sub and speakers getting the lower bass). I'm sorry to throw in all this but I still don't think the speakers are the problem. ;D I already know some of the things you mentioned like setting speakers to small and independent crossovers, and sub crossover set to off, etc. I've always used 80hz as my crossover because I was one of the ones who read that "80hz is the standard". My receiver/processor does not have independent crossovers and the only choice below 80hz is 50hz. Unfortunately 60 or 70 is not an option. I am starting to agree with you that my speakers are not the problem. While I understand better ones are out there that cost more, for my setup and listening volume, my Emotivas handle the source material very well. Now I'm just trying to tweak my setup to give me the best possible experience. The reason I quoted that poster at AVS is because he is knowledgeable about the MCACC calibration that Pioneer employs on their AVRs. And if he says that my system can not reproduce anything between 50-80hz if my crossover is set to 50hz, I tend to believe him. When I tested some material switching between 50 and 80 crossover, I tended to like 50hz better. But I worry that I won't be able to hear material the way it was intended if I lose LFE between those frequencies. So this part confuses me. I did ignore the THX stuff. My speakers and sub are not THX so any option in my Pioneer's setup that involved THX, I turned it off. Like I said a couple days ago, it's starting to sound better. I had my mains way too far toed in and my center was too low. These changes have helped. Now it's just a matter of fine tuning.
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Post by mrcoop on Jan 26, 2010 15:21:46 GMT -5
I say upgrade...you know that little birdie in your head will be constantly whispering if you don't...
sure, you will always be thinking can I get something better even after the upgrade but if you go big, that thought will almost diminish if not entirely dissapear...my advise, if you are still willing to take uncle sams check and spend it on speakers, do it...but give it some thought.
IMO, rather then get the atlantic's, because they are some seriuos cash, consider the jtr triple 8's. Iam not sure what you were quoted for the AT's, but the jtr's would be an excellent choice at a lower expense. I have yet to here a negative comment on these speakers and that pro sound maybe something you may be looking for...
I was going to go this route but ended up with klipsch-650's...even with the klipsch purchase...that whispering birdie in my head is all but silent!
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