Discussion of EMO-Q - Unusable as is

[solomente]

My experience is that it's totally broken. I'm running with the new firmware. After 3 different mic placements and at least 20 times running it, I can get good distances about 60% of the time (except the sub always thinks it's 6 feet away when it's more than 12). The level and crossover settings are way off. Every time it says I have NO center channel speaker (despite the fact that it finds it for the distance check and plays the tone for the xover and level set), and puts my sub at -10db. All I have is one small Velodyne sub with the volume knob set to 2.5 out of 10, so I don't think it needs to be -10. When I run test tones after the fact, the UMC thinks I have front mains and a sub, no surrounds and no center. The other xover settings aren't horrendous, but they aren't right. It's setting my Monitor Audio RS6's to 20hz and I know they don't go anywhere near that low. I'm not too concerned about that. Bigger issue is the center channel disappearing every time.

[ratmice]

^^ mine are RS6s too. they sometimes get crossed at 20 Hz and other times at 250 Hz.

[lonnie]

Feb 11, 2010 21:29:22 GMT -5 solomente said:

My experience is that it's totally broken. I'm running with the new firmware. After 3 different mic placements and at least 20 times running it, I can get good distances about 60% of the time (except the sub always thinks it's 6 feet away when it's more than 12). The level and crossover settings are way off. Every time it says I have NO center channel speaker (despite the fact that it finds it for the distance check and plays the tone for the xover and level set), and puts my sub at -10db. All I have is one small Velodyne sub with the volume knob set to 2.5 out of 10, so I don't think it needs to be -10. When I run test tones after the fact, the UMC thinks I have front mains and a sub, no surrounds and no center. The other xover settings aren't horrendous, but they aren't right. It's setting my Monitor Audio RS6's to 20hz and I know they don't go anywhere near that low. I'm not too concerned about that. Bigger issue is the center channel disappearing every time.

To say that it is totally broken is a pretty bold statement when you consider that of all the units out there, there is only a few people who are having issues are or just not getting what they think it should do.

Anyway, the sub distance is easy to explain. Given the length of a sub wave ( some longer than 56 feet) the system relies a lot on a combination of phase and time delay. It looks for the arrival time and compares it to the phase. Powered subs by nature often have lots of internal phase shifts due to the crossovers, phase adjustments, eqs (which are in the analog realm and that is why they have phase shifts).

The center channel is bafflng to me though. Without more information as to where the mic is placed, what the room looks like, how the room is layed out, what objects are in the room, you get the idea. I can't help you resolve the issue.

I would be happy to help you with this, but I need more info.

[solomente]

Lonnie,
My intent wasn't as negative as it may have sounded. I'm just saying for me, it is not working in any way close to being usable. Others may have better success. I will take my issues to PM/phone calls for assistance. Thanks

[jgeiger]

Just a question.

I watched the video how you explained phase, and I was wondering why if I run the system, it shows a speaker out of phase, but I re-run it without changing anything, it shows in phase?

[ratmice]

Feb 11, 2010 22:54:55 GMT -5 jgeiger said:

Just a question.

I watched the video how you explained phase, and I was wondering why if I run the system, it shows a speaker out of phase, but I re-run it without changing anything, it shows in phase?

I just had this happen to me too. One run had every speaker out of phase except the sub.

[snodog]

Has anyone used any other system like Audyssey? Just curious if they get similar results or if it could be a mic problem? What do I know just trying to help

[hemster]

I've used Audyssey with my Marantz SR5003 receiver before I replaced it with a UMC-1. However that was some time ago and I did not record the values so I can compare.
Given that Audyssey, Yamaha's YPAO and Emo-Q all use different algorithms, would it be reasonable to compare their results with each other?

[zductive]

Lonnie - anyone
I noticed that I can change the equalization values on the fly if I run my analog sine wave into one of the analog aux ports. I have not been able to change the settings if I connect the signal to any of the ext 7.1 ports. That means that I can't real-time adjust any signals except for the L and R

1 - is there any way that I can send a signal to each speaker one at a time while equalization and the other settings are running?

I ran emo exactly the way that Dan showed in his video. The settings that resulted are simply not correct. The microphone for this most recent run was elevated above the couch with direct line of sight to all speakers. Is it possible that the mic is bad?

For a test, could I use the output from the rat shack meter in place of the microphone that is furnished? I know that it will be off a few dB. That would be considerably better than the results that I am getting.

The LCR are set to 250 Hz. The Sub is set to 80 Hz. The surrounds are set to 100 Hz. Best that I can see is that I will never hear anything between 100 Hz and 250 Hz because of the settings that emo-q chose. About to give up on this...

[Stevens]

Feb 12, 2010 1:47:09 GMT -5 zductive said:

For a test, could I use the output from the rat shack meter in place of the microphone that is furnished? I know that it will be off a few dB.

I'd guess you may probably not use the Radio Shack meter instead of the original Emo mike since their characteristics are probably way different. However, since you have the meter, why not make yourself some test CD with sinus tones and measure it manually? Or, download and run the REW software. Can be found here: www.hometheatershack.com/forums/downloads-area/19-downloads-page.html . There you can also find some good correction tables for the Radio Shack meter.

[zductive]

This is the best example of a spell checker helping you out that I have seen...
"why not make yourself some test CD with sinus tones "
Maybe thats why it sounds nasal lol.

Really - thanks for the link. I have REW installed and have been using its signal generator function.

The real problem with using EMO-Q is probably that the room needs to be well controlled before equalization is applied. I thought that my room was ok since the front portion is heavily bass damped. The ceiling even has an acoustic cloud to help decrease the room mode.

One problem that I am encountering with trying to use the umc equalization is interaction between settings. Adjust one and the adjacent band is off by a couple dB.

Regardless - the unit sounds very good.

[tubby]

Feb 11, 2010 23:43:36 GMT -5 hemster said:

I've used Audyssey with my Marantz SR5003 receiver before I replaced it with a UMC-1. However that was some time ago and I did not record the values so I can compare.
Given that Audyssey, Yamaha's YPAO and Emo-Q all use different algorithms, would it be reasonable to compare their results with each other?

I don't know about YPAO but from what I can teel about Emo-Q and what I have read about Audyssey they would give you different results. At least for EQ settings. Speaker distance and levels should probabaly be the same but the EQ curve would be different. Not sure about crossover.

My conclusion based on the user feedback and videos from Dan and Lonnie is that EMO-Q is nowhere near as sofisticated as the other EQ programs out there. I think most users are expecting it to be as robust and it just is not, hence the "issues". I bet the others have a better "error correction" if you will.

In good room conditions it will probabaly do an fine job but it seems very sensitive to extenal factors.

In the end it it does the same thing as the others, apply a EQ curve. So SQ wise it should sound just as good however users migth not get there as easily.

[darien87]

I ran Emo-Q a few times last night and it kept telling me that my left front and sub were out of phase. I checked my subs and lo and behold one was set to 0 and the other was set to 180. So I set them both to 180 then re-ran Emo-Q and it said the subs were in phase. All right, we're getting closer.

I ran Emo-Q again and it still told me that the left front was reversed. Luckily I had watched Lonnie's video that explained about "relative phase", so I tried reversing the + and - connections on me left front and Emo-Q was finally happy with all of my speakers. So I ran it again and for the first time it was pretty close with distances and crossover points. It gave me 20Hz for the left front and 50Hz for the right front, but no biggie, I just changed them both to 40hz.

But what bothers me is that when I listen to music with the left front speaker reversed it sounds weird to me. The voices don't seem to be coming from directly in front of me anymore. They're more coming from up and to the left of center. I guess you could say that it's given me a wider soundstage, but I don't think this is how it's supposed to sound. So I switched the connections back. Should I leave the left speaker the way Emo-Q is telling me?

[hemster]

Hmm. Interesting observations indeed!

So are you saying that the music that you know well doesn't sound "right"?

Could it be that the relative phase was incorrect before you ran Emo-Q but that you got used to hearing music that way and now it's just different? If so, maybe in time you'll get used to it..

Would be interesting to hear others' opinions.

[jason1976]

No voices should be coming from the center. Switch over to 2ch stereo, if the center image isn't there then it is incorrect.

[bwfan]

All speakers should be connected in phase is my understanding. Correct me if I am wrong.

[darien87]

Feb 12, 2010 11:56:58 GMT -5 jason1976 said:

No voices should be coming from the center. Switch over to 2ch stereo, if the center image isn't there then it is incorrect.

That's what I thought.

[moodyman]

Feb 12, 2010 11:36:49 GMT -5 darien87 said:

But what bothers me is that when I listen to music with the left front speaker reversed it sounds weird to me. The voices don't seem to be coming from directly in front of me anymore. They're more coming from up and to the left of center. I guess you could say that it's given me a wider soundstage, but I don't think this is how it's supposed to sound. So I switched the connections back. Should I leave the left speaker the way Emo-Q is telling me?

Classic symptom of speakers wired OUT OF PHASE. Forget EMO-Q and wire them back the proper way. I have never in my life heard or read anything that suggested wiring your speakers out of phase.

I don't pretend to be an expert but Lonnie's suggestion to wire them out of phase if Emo_Q tell you too just makes no sense. When your listening to 2 channel stereo the singers voice should be centered between the 2 speakers. When they are wired out of phase the audio leaves the speakers out of phase and when they arrive at your sweet spot they will cancel each other out...making the voice sound like it coming from outside the speaker envelope.

This is basic Audio 101..always wire your speakers in phase...red to red..black to black

If EMO-Q is telling you your out of phase but clearly your hooked up correctly..EMO-Q is messed up..period.

[bwfan]

Feb 12, 2010 12:26:46 GMT -5 moodyman said:

Feb 12, 2010 11:36:49 GMT -5 darien87 said:

But what bothers me is that when I listen to music with the left front speaker reversed it sounds weird to me. The voices don't seem to be coming from directly in front of me anymore. They're more coming from up and to the left of center. I guess you could say that it's given me a wider soundstage, but I don't think this is how it's supposed to sound. So I switched the connections back. Should I leave the left speaker the way Emo-Q is telling me?

Classic symptom of speakers wired OUT OF PHASE. Forget EMO-Q and wire them back the proper way. I have never in my life heard or read anything that suggested wiring your speakers out of phase.

I don't pretend to be an expert but Lonnie's suggestion to wire them out of phase if Emo_Q tell you too just makes no sense. When your listening to 2 channel stereo the singers voice should be centered between the 2 speakers. When they are wired out of phase the audio leaves the speakers out of phase and when they arrive at your sweet spot they will cancel each other out...making the voice sound like it coming from outside the speaker envelope.

This is basic Audio 101..always wire your speakers in phase...red to red..black to black

If EMO-Q is telling you your out of phase but clearly your hooked up correctly..EMO-Q is messed up..period.

Yes agreed moodyman...something is not adding up with the EMO-Q room testing. Speakers should always be in phase. think subs are the exception to the rule when they have phase adjustments on the x-over section.

While I appreciate Lonnie's information it might be worthwhile dialing in everything manually. I don't own a UMC-1 but from what I am hearing and it's been said many times over EMO-Q is just not reliable nor consistent for most folks.

[monkumonku]

Feb 12, 2010 12:24:21 GMT -5 bwfan said:

All speakers should be connected in phase is my understanding. Correct me if I am wrong.

It should be immediately evident when listening if speakers are in or out of phase. You don't even need to check the wiring. Those test DVD's contain phase tests in them, also, that makes it easy to check for proper phasing. Out of phase speakers makes your head feel out of balance.